posted on September 5, 2001 05:47:21 PM
meridenmor. I am not a dealer but do eBay for a hobby. Have been trading since 09/99 and have 428 feedback deals and 252 positive, with one negative. I do this for fun and can afford to undercut any dealer. I win some, I lose some, and have never had a return as my auction descriptions and pics are accurate. The market place is cruel!
posted on September 5, 2001 06:21:19 PM
GreetingsfromUK,
Your FB indicates that you have done approx. 5 deals a week in the last 2 years, which you imply were all sales.
If you were in Australia, based on the number of your sales, you could not legally call yourself a hobbyist and avoid paying taxes on your profits, but that wouldn’t necessarily stop one from doing so if one were inclined to being a thief.
I would GUESS tax laws to be same in UK.
If so, then you are breaking the law by not declaring your income.
In this case we are not talking about ‘the market’ but rather ‘market covert’, ie.-black market.
posted on September 5, 2001 07:34:19 PM
Its the people that do this for fun and enjoy destroying other peoples income that really make one wonder why we keep fighting this battle.Funny thing is its that same me generation that is destroying our economy too.
posted on September 5, 2001 07:42:58 PM
Great Thread Adrian
"That’s not competition but lack of business sense. The whole idea in any business is to maximize profit not sell at cheaply as possible and make as little profit as possible."
The problem is so many people selling are not operating as a business (paying taxes, overhead, insurance, living expenses) therefore; business sense does not enter the picture.
Ebay has forever changed the Antiques and Collectibles Market and Profession.
(Sorry, for stating the obvious).
1. Initially Ebay and the Internet provided an artificial business environment. Very Low Rent compared to classified advertising, renting space or owning a shop, show fees, Free Credit Cards, Free computer space and tools for listing pictures and auctions (AW).
2. Ebay provided a worldwide venue and “shop”, for the basement and attic of every casual collector, hobbyist, relatives of someone who died, or someone who watched the Antiques Road show last night and thinks everything in their attic will finance a trip to the moon
3. Ebay and the Internet leveled the playing field of knowledge. Now anyone with a computer can type in some descriptive words and find out everything about an item in 2 minutes. Before the Internet, if I didn’t know what an item was I would have to take a lot of enjoyable time researching the item through books, running to shows to study, join pottery clubs, glassware clubs antique clubs, network to learn about the item.Over the years knowledge was obtained, that not everyone would have the time or inclination to do. Now? Free, instant knowledge on anything produced on this planet since Adam and Eve.
4. Many categories of antiques and collectibles were rare because of the ability for any one collector (buyer) to physically track down the items at shops, shows, and flea markets. The hours available for a collector to visit shops and shows were limited by distance, shop or show hours. Thus when you spotted a "widget" you were willing to pay, because you might not see another in your lifetime. The dealer also may not have ever spotted one before and would price accordingly.
Reston Ray Stated “I think one of the casualties of this marketplace, including qualities that are being devalued, is the intangible of knowledge and reputation that a specialist brings to their field”
Well said, and it will be a sad day, if the “specialist” is no longer able to make a living doing what they love.
posted on September 5, 2001 08:06:13 PM
adrian,
not all dealers check competitor's prices and deliberately undercut other dealers.
we all have our own pricing policy,is 4 times cost good enough ?how about 2-3 times,not too shabby.
as for the specialist not being able to make a living,may be specialist is making an artificially high income due to market inefficiency,a good specialist adjusts,leverage his knowledge of the marketplace and products to survive in a new environment.
i would just like to point out that an established dealer knows where to find his merchandise which takes a long time for newbies or weekend warriors to replicate.
posted on September 5, 2001 08:16:02 PM
adrian,The competition is fine I can handle it but what I do not understand is why list at item at 5.00 dollars and sell it for 10.00.When for the past 3 years its brought 25.00 or more.
it could be thier cost is just lower than yours.
they may not have been around for 3 years.
they are happy with 2 times cost..
Chinese from china have been selling chinese antiques and are ecstatic over the us dollars these items are fetching,doyou know what a few hundred dollars can do for these sellers in china?how about just a 25 dollars ?
the european sellers have access to some used meissen sets,used meaning they have been used a few times a year in someone 's house ,and they started their auction at lower price than our wholesale price.
they have an advantage -their goods and their location
posted on September 5, 2001 08:31:58 PM
Many of the problems being mentioned here are faced daily by any B & M store.
In our city bigger retailers are coming in and they have more buying power than we do. It makes it more difficult to compete when we try to sell clothing, giftware and jewelry.
Street vendors blow in and out of town on the weekends when there is little risk of being caught and some of them do very well.
Garage sales that are more like businesses cut into our antique sales. There are craft fairs also.
GreetingsfromUK said the market place is cruel and I agree. ebay is not much different to me than my RL business. It is adapt or die.
For several years I sold on ebay and I did very well. Now I mostly have items left that I am not ready to part with. I will use ebay to buy items for some of my customers but I will also sell things that I do not have a local market for.
There are ways for all of us to survive if we are willing to look for them. It is a global market place and we should remember that.
posted on September 5, 2001 08:42:16 PM
If you've been selling the same kind of item for years, you've got to expect that the market will dry up. Especially with new sellers coming on board all the time. eBay was fun and easy in the beginning. But I don't feel like diversifying. eBay has never been more than a full-time hobby for me. (And yes I pay taxes.) I won't sell fat burner pills, ginsu knives or bootlegged software, just to stay on board.
After four and a half years on eBay full time, I took a RL job. The hours are longer but there are some perks. Like interacting with real people, not just communicating with strangers by email. Also, I don't take my job home with me. When I clock out of my job, it's over. Not 24-7 like eBay. Lastly, they actually PAY me for working. Last month on eBay I had $1000 worth of deadbeat bidders. I don't miss eBay a bit. I'll still sell until I've cleared out my excess inventory, but in my mind I've already quit.
posted on September 5, 2001 09:20:46 PM
In some of the areas I sell in the market is not drying up its expanding.Yet some sellers continue to under price items.
One area I sell in the vellum items I am reffering to.A few years ago this was an unknown market.You buy the items very cheaply.
However they have become very collectable and where you used to get them in bulk they are sold on a piece by piece basis at the source.
But ebaY does not reflect this trend but the opposite.
Having said that the last lot of these I got was a very large lot of a few hundred items.
Far more than I could handle so I split the lot with another dealer.In this lot where a large group of paper items dating back into the 15 hundreds.Paper items never really sell that well.So I offered them in bulk lots of 50.I sold all lots of what I had on ebaY.By the time I was all said and done I had my complete investment back.Plus a profit and I am still sitting on about 100 or more items from this lot.Each piece brings anywhere from 25.00 depending on age to as high as 100.00
So in reality I can under cut every seller on ebaY,even at 5.00 but still make a good profit.
But why should I,when I know each item is worth far more etc etc.
I no longer do this as a fulltime business either so its a business hobby.But I always look at it and run it as a business with the intent to make as much profit as is possible.
The tax issue is totally irrelevant as to the problem of dropping prices. I filed taxes this year, and certainly do not begrudge people who don't. Anybody who demands money from you under threat is an extortionist, plain and simple, whether they are named Al Capone or the IRS. Anyone in their right mind who could beat the tax man should. I know I cannot due to the profile that I have. But I cheer on those that can.
Even non-taxpayers *should* have sufficient greed to try to get as much money as possible for their items. In other words to price according to value and even undercut your competitors a few percentage points.
It is apparent that many people are simply stupid and pricing their items at prices far below than what they were purchased at, hoping that will 'get the bidding going'. At that price they will take a loss, taxpayer or not. If the item is in high demand the strategy might even work before the market is flooded and the price falls through the floor.
I do not blame hobbyists. A true hobbyist is one who damn well knows the value of an item and may be even less inclined to dump it than a professional dealer who is willing to reduce profit for volume.
The problem is the 'hit and run' vendor who do not adequately research values and prices in categories they post to. If they did they would make alot more money, and so would the rest of us.
Even if you paid nothing for it, posting a low demand item like a book for a dollar or .75 is suicidal. The sheer amount of time involved as well as labor (an average of .5 to .75 hours per item according to 'scientific' estimates) would put you on a payscale similar to a Malaysian sweatshop.
I know of two auctioneers. Real ones. My favorite is the one who doesnt even really bother to look at the items and starts everything at a dollar. Sometimes his auctions go into the hundreds, but most of the time they stay low. I get real bargains there. My least favorite is the one who will read the labels on things and try to start everything at at least $10. His closing prices are consistently higher and his highs are normally less spectacular. But I would certainly prefer him to consign *my* items.....
posted on September 6, 2001 05:51:16 AM
From what I've read in other threads, a lot of the sellers who lowball all their starting bids are gamblers. To them, selling on ebay is like buying a 30-cent lottery ticket.
The sellers who lowball everything rationalize it by saying they make up for the losses on the items that take off in price. What they don't seem to realize is that a little research and a higher opening price on some of their items will maximize their overall take. If they just took a moment to add up the items that they sold for a buck when they could have easily gotten $10, $15, or $25 then they might understand the concept. I think some of these people just get such a buzz out of seeing bidding wars that they're blind to creating any sort of hybrid opening-bid policy based on market reality which would likely make them more overall profit.
posted on September 6, 2001 06:03:35 AM
Supply & demand.
If you don’t want to see the market price drop- then prop it up, BUY, BUY, BUY.
If the market is not BUYING, BUYING, BUYING, then obviously the market opinion is that in the current market it is not WORTH IT, WORTH IT, WORTH IT.
A legitimate full time waiter pays relevant tax, a legitimate part time waiter pays relevant taxes.
What makes some part/full time dealers think that my tax dollars should subsidise their theft.
One day my temper will get so high that I will actually write a letter to the tax man with your names on top.
How much of price fluctuation can be attributed to theft and how much to legitimate market forces, who knows?, I certainly don't.
But I know most of my main competitors in my town, and I know that they are not all completely within the tax system.
snakebait: "tax issue is totally irrelevant"
and so you try to tell us that someone trying to feed their family by making an honest living is a fool for giving way to market forces, but the thief is an entrepreneur.
I can't honestly say that getting rid of that type will fix the prob' but it sure will improve my situation, to get rid of many of my competitors.
posted on September 6, 2001 09:30:40 AMWhat they don't seem to realize is that a little research and a higher opening price on some of their items will maximize their overall take.
Everyone plays the game their own way. Some play more skillfully than others, but it's not always those who feel the most confident in their own strategy who are doing the best.
posted on September 6, 2001 09:44:22 AM
Costa
Its not always supply and demand that dictates price.
As I do not agree with this statement
"then obviously the market opinion is that in the current market it is not WORTH IT, WORTH IT, WORTH IT. "
Reason is if widget A has consistantly sold say for 40.00 over the past month or years.
Then seller B or C or D has the same item or similar.They offer widget A at 5.00 it ends at 10.00.Does that mean that widget A is know
only worth 10.00.
The answer is NO,reason why is it ended at 10.00 is because there where not enough bidders to drive the price up to the previous level.
However if seller A,B or C listed it closer to the price it typically sells at 40.00.They would find that there item would still sell but at the higher price.
If Mercedes started selling all there cars for between 10,000 and 20,000 dollars.They would create a lot more sales but does that mean that the car is now only worth the new price.Even it is identical to the ones priced higher.
The market is not always and especially ebaY an indication as to its actual worth.
posted on September 6, 2001 09:55:21 AMDoing that devalues the true worth of the object.
If there isn't enough of a market for an item to be bid up to what you think is "market value", the market is soft, and would have come down on it's own soon enough.
posted on September 6, 2001 09:58:23 AM
I would agrue that any widget is worth exactly what the most recent seller agreed to sell an identical one for. The "value" is constantly cchanging.
If you bought a Krugerrand for $850 in 1980, and I can buy an identical one now for--what?--$300, what "worth" would you assign it? (If precious metals are not to your liking, just plug in any tangible, non-unique item in there.)
posted on September 6, 2001 10:43:29 AMI would agrue that any widget is worth exactly what the most recent seller agreed to sell an identical one for.
Not likely.
The problem with trying to use eBay as an accurate gauge of an items worth [at least for antiques & collectibles] is that NOTHING ever sells for the same identical price day to day, week to week, or month to month.
Some items have a fairly consistent sell through price, others go up & down like a yo-yo with no rhyme or reason.
ebay is really no differnet than any RL auction where the prices on any given sale are detrmined by the audience that is present on that particular day.
All one has to do is do a completed search on any given common collectible & you'll see what I mean. Now watch that same item over the course of several months & you'll see prices all over the map.
Holdenrex'scomment was right on the money.
The reality is that when a $25 item is listed at $1 NR, there WILL be times when that's all it sells for. [or at least WAY below the $25 mark]
Does that mean that's all it's worth?
Obviously not.
The problem is that if too many sellers start listing these items at low $ amounts [hoping for a bidding war] pretty soon buyers will quit bidding on the ones opening at $25, and will start placing low $ bids hoping to get a steal.
Even if they lose out a few times at $5-15, they know another seller will have yet another low $ piece listed within the week.
In the end this hurts both the sellers of these items, and the overall market.
If you attend any major B&M auction house you'll never see the auction house destroy the market by starting a $10,000 item at $100 with no reserve.
In the long run this hurts the auction house, the consigner, and the market for these items.
Considering some of these auction houses have been in biz for over 100 years, I have a sense they know what they're doing.
posted on September 6, 2001 11:14:30 AM
Very good points in this thread! Its a classic case of Large well funded corporations moving in on vulnerable mom & Pop auction businesses - The big guys come when they smell money and they stay until theres nothing left. Just like The Walmart syndrome. Only thing to do is watch what the big guns go for and do something they cant or dont want to do. You cant out spend em and you cant out work em - Get creative, Be flexible and stay alert. There are catagorys and areas where its just not profitable for them to be- thats our safe ground - There will always be a venue for us small guys - ebay seems to be moving toward the big money. It will be fun to see what happens.
Sholder to the Wheel and a stiff upper lip !
Koplah !
Ed
posted on September 6, 2001 02:45:46 PM
I read this thread with great interest. I too sell antique and collecibles. When I first started I thought I had found the mother load. I would pick up a box lot at an estate auction and sell them on eBay for sometimes 4 or 5 times what I paid.
This was only a year a go. Last night I went to my favorite auction house and everything I normally bid on was bid way out of sight!! I just couldn't believe it.
Last winter they were almost giving these items away, last night one box lot (and not a big one) went for over $100!! Something I would have paid only $20 for only a few months ago.
What was "my catagory" is now flooded with items for $1.00 and sell for $5.00!! I have kept my ear to the ground and am trying to find the next open catagory because there is no way I can compete with those prices.
Granted, the collecible market changes, something that is hot today, is not going to be hot tomorrow. I wish I knew the answer, maybe starting my own auction would be the best bet. I think I would make a lot more money getting the block together, cleaning out the garages and basements and setting up a neighborhood auction. I know I would make more money than trying to compete with every Tom, Dick and Harry on eBay.
posted on September 6, 2001 03:57:12 PM
As a Hobby seller, I can afford to buy $1000.00 of stock at retail prices. If that stock only realises $800.00 on eBay, so what, I have had fun, and it costs me less than my local Golf Club!
posted on September 6, 2001 07:09:04 PM
A perfect example of what is going to happen on E-Bay,has already happened on Half.Com People have flooded the market with their give-away prices and destroyed the Whole market. Some people might be having a blast in what they are doing,but it will soon kill E-Bay altogether and most sellers at that point will say the heck with E-Bay.
posted on September 6, 2001 07:17:00 PM
GreatingsfromUK,
Trading at a loss as a hobby!
Now that is perfectly legitimate & acceptable.
Based on the information you have given us, you are clearly not one of those thieves I referred too.
Perhaps, the fact that all the thieves in the UK were once deported to Australia for stealing bread, has resulted in a different kind of hobbyist being raised here in Australia.
Hope to see you at St Andrews.
posted on September 6, 2001 07:22:30 PM
well, I'm glad you are enjoying your hobby (selling below what you pay for the item) and donating dollars to ebay...that's your right! However, the rest of us that make a living at the B & M and internet, HAVE to make a living, maybe small, but it helps our families. Have you ever thought of the collector out there? If it wasn't for dealers that know what is collectible or antique to pick up for them...they would never have the time to get the item....and the sellers would get feed up with not selling and take it to the dump!
posted on September 6, 2001 07:34:04 PM
ATTENTION every Tom, Dick and Harry on eBay.
When do you know it is time to quit??
when you can no longer service your credit card debt!
some have already quitted,not on their own but at the request of their creditors.
posted on September 6, 2001 07:41:12 PM
Hwahetc--just when I think ebay is doomed, I throw a goofy item up for bid at $9.99 and it goes wonderfully! Throw the price guide out the window and look for the offbeat. That is what is selling on eBay. Go figure?
I am not arguing the statistics--just like the bottom line. And will go with the flow
