posted on September 6, 2001 08:05:26 PM
hwahwahwahwa - I think it would be a good idea if you started you own thread - good discussion for those Tom Dick and Mary's...
posted on September 6, 2001 08:30:13 PM
My, my, my. What an interesting turn of events. Usually we have people in here whining about how the dealers and big boys are ruining ebay. Now we seem to have some who feel the hobbyist are ruining ebay.
Lest we forget, ebay started as a place for collectors to swap & sell their items among themselves.
I seriously doubt hobbyists like greetingsfromuk is doing a whole lot of damage to anyone's business. But if he is, then it wasn't that stable a business to begin with.
posted on September 6, 2001 08:44:45 PM
Eventer,
You know I was thinking the exact same thing.
eBay was started for the collectors and attic/basement cleaners.
It was a great opportunity to get in that attic and or basement and get rid all that stuff that was taking up space.
And at the same time enhance someone elses collection.
I don't think it was originally intented for B&M and Big Corporations to take over.
Heck, at that time we had no idea what any of that stuff was worth and was glad to just get rid of it.
I'm a Hobbiest, a pretty active one at that, and yes I win some and I lose some.
I think eBay is big enough for all of us no matter what we want to start out "stuff" at.
posted on September 6, 2001 09:20:01 PM
there are many marginal brick and mortar stores which have been closed and are now selling solely in cyberspace.
they are the ones which are responsibe for price erosion as they have so much inventory up to the gazoo and they are using it to raise cash.
they are in every catagory-books,sports cards,jewelry,gifts ,electronics etc.
there are also dabblers who keep listing the same items such as pug pillowcase,borzoi key chain,diana the huntress tray until every one who wants one have one.
unique interesting,rare and good quality items are just as hard to get as before,try to find a good edo period woodblock print by a famous artist and see how many bidders are bidding against you.
posted on September 6, 2001 09:38:15 PM
I may not agree with the $1 NR everything under the sun, but I do welcome the hobby sellers with open arms.
IMO if every seller on eBay was a pro, and asking "fair market value" prices, eBay would never have become what it is today.
The majority of people shop on eBay for 2 reasons. [at least for antiques & collectibles]
1. To purchase items that cannot be found locally.
2. To get bargains
3. 'Cause they think Meg's cute ... J/K
I have two antique malls in the area that I live in. In the one mall damn near everything is priced at "book" value & ran by dealers who think they're pros.
The other is ran by small mom & pop types who are just happy to have a quick turnover, and don't pay much attention to the "book" prices.
Guess which shop I spend my money at?
Guess which shop has the highest turnover?
posted on September 6, 2001 09:51:20 PM
The idea behind the low starting bid is to draw the bidders in.
With a couple of active bidders it more likely then not brings the price up to the fair market value and sometimes surpasses the seller that has a price set at what they have to have.
Buyers know what they want and/or are willing to pay...
But it does take 2 to get the bidding started. If you have a halfway desirable piece on you will have no problems sinking the hook with a $1NR auction.
posted on September 6, 2001 10:53:24 PM
there are several people that sell the same items that we do.
one item this person always started at 1.00 and it would usually bid up to about 20.00. the item costs us 15.00 and usually would sell for 29.99+ with a starting bid of 29.99. some selling as high as 80.00. I started watching this person all their stuff starting at .01 to 1.00. I found that they were using 4 shill names to bid up their items, I reported them to safe harbor, I get an email back saying that they looked at it and found nothing wrong. OK these 4 names have bid on almost ever auction this person had running in the last 30 days and they have bid on not one other auction. I write back and ask if it is OK if I start listing at .99 and shill bid up my own auctions. Safe harbor writes back and tells me that that is gourds for suspension, 3 days later this guy has our same item listed for .99. I write safe harbor again, they write back and say that they will not look into it further and further emails on the subject will be ignored. so I write to them again with a different email address copying the first email and just sending it again, Guess what, I got a different automaton at ebay and I get a email back saying they can't comment on what will be done as it is against their privacy rules, but it wasn't hard to find out that all the names were NARU. 30 days later the guy is back in business, he and the other name are not NARU anymore, and is still listing his stuff at cost, yep 15.00 what a retard!
I have another person that sells another item we sell and also sells stuff we were thinking about listing, they start their minimum bid at about cost plus 15%, some item a bit more some a bit less. You'll love this one if you can stick out all the math, they have listed 3622 items in the last 30 days they have sold 495 item or 13% of the items listed their total sales in dollars is 4600.20 that is an average sale per item listed of 1.27 they sell starting below and above the 9.99 starting bid so their average cost to list is .38 from 1.27 = .89 per auction listed or sales are now at 3223.58 - ebay closing fees at 5% of 4600.20 is 230.00, 3223.58 - 230.00 = 2993.58(I understand that the fees would actually be a little higher if you figured the closing fees per item, but I don't want to do the math and it would make it even more depressing). so now we are at .82 per auction listed, being generous on the cost of the item as they range in cost from 4 to 7 dollars depending on which company and they come from and the quantity bought, at 495 item bought at 5.00 is 2475.00 for cost of goods sold 2993.58 - 2475 = 518.58 in sales or .143 per item listed, I also have to say they do make .70 per auction in a handling fee they charge .70 x 495 = 346.50 + 518.58 = 865.08 in sales or .24 per auction listed, they also take PayPal so if you figure the .30 transaction fee plus the PP percentage on the people that pay with PayPal this guy is lucky if they are making a few cents per item sold. Of course there are shipping supplies, internet connection, if you add all the overhead or any of the overhead they are going in the hole every month. If you count the deadbeats he is paying people to take his items. They have 10,000+ feedback and you got to know they are probably just sitting there scratching their heads trying to figure out why they can't seem to run their business in the black.
posted on September 6, 2001 11:11:18 PM
Whether or not you sell pezz dispensers and you think ebay belongs to you.
The fact is, if your doing deals that the tax man doesn’t know about and the law says he should,
then you are a THIEF that is infringing on the quality of life of my kids.
When my patience and compassion wear thinner; I or one of the dealers that you are known to will turn you in to the tax man.
If you are one of these thieves, prepare your ass, it’s go’na be mine.
posted on September 6, 2001 11:57:09 PM
I tell you what,
I’m as mad as hell and ain’t gonna take it any more,
This is what I think of the level of logic in this debate.
I hereby forthwith invoke the Jerry12.
Jerry where are you, You’ve always been there for us in the past,
What say you?
Why the downturn in the market?
Should we subsidise ebay?
I Put Forward The Motion That We All Agree To Accept As True:
Any Ruling That Jerry12 Passes on the issues of :
A./..validity of certain price drops as seen on ebay.
B./..morality of illegal dealers/professional hobbyists.
I don't pay taxes so that you or anyone's kids to have a "better quality of life" though it does usually turn out that way.
To me, and I know others, when I read something like that it sound to me like you think that the government owes you something and that every person should pay those taxes so you can get your share. I pay my taxes and I also play in every gray area that I know I can get away with. I have 4 business, soon to be adding 2 more, last I paid more taxes than I will ever see come back to me, but there are two new low income/subsidized housing projects that are going up in our town as I speak. One of the largest complexes for low income people is right behind my B & M store, if I didn't own the store I would have moved a few years ago. We get broken into 3-4 times a year so not only are we paying taxes that is being handed out to 3rd generation welfare families but our store insurance and we are giving even more, probably to buy drugs and the like.
The problem isn't that the few people that don't pay taxes, don't pay their taxes. The problem is we all pay too much taxes, what needs to happen is one day the government says we've armed all the people that have been paying taxes, we will be collecting less tax and all you people that have been living on the system need to go get jobs.
Now I'm not talking about the people that need it and will benefit by it, the people that can prove they are in school, or in a vocational program, or are truly disabled etc. I'm talking about the people that sit on the couch all day saying that they can't find a job, they weigh 300 pounds and they smell bad.
Jerry12? now you want someone else to tell you how you should think on "morality issues" and you put them?
Now I remember why I've been staying away from AuctionWatch.
Having filed taxes, I for one am immune from your threats. But it is every person's right to keep the beaurocrats out of their pockets as much as possible. Perhaps you feel that those who cheat on taxes can undercut you to the point of ruining your business. This is clearly not so, and is paranoid thinking. The problem with tailspinning prices are people who have absolutely no concept or concern with what profitibility really is.
GreetingsfromUK is simply unconcerned. He is a hobbyist who could care less about staying in the black. He is not a professional. And he does not apparently make a sufficient profit to even warrant taxation. Though perhaps foolhardy with pricing, he at least has an idea of the value of his items, and as a hobbyist is an asset since that makes him also a buyer. Without hobbyists we would all be in real trouble.
The people who are pushing us into the red are the attic cleaners and twits who have no idea of what they are doing and flooding the market with dollar wonders thinking they'll make fortunes, eventually at least. Their damage is not just to pricing, but to the credibility of the online market itself. You can just imagine how they pack those 99 cent Faberge Eggs in garbage bags with duct tape, and then threaten the buyer if they complain. Especially when they charge $20 to ship it First Class. These people will cwertainly not make enough money off eBay to warrant paying taxes. In fact if they keep it up long enough we will not be paying taxes off ebay sales either. No income, no taxes. Simple concept.
In order to warrant taxation you must make a profit. And people who make the most profit make the most money. And more money means higher prices. Simple concept to all folks still on their medications.
It woyuld therefor seem that those in most need of taxation are precisely those who in the end the most successful, and have the best pricing policies for both short and long term. SInce these people are the ones holding the market up for now and preventing its collapse, they are clearly not our problem. And whether or not they pay their taxes is utterly irrelevant. I just personally regard governments as extortionists and wish the very best to those who can outwit them.
Now it is possible that those who do avoid taxes as well as bricks and mortar rental charges, as well as utilities associated with them may be able to undercut you a certain degree on prices. Especially if they recycle boxes and scavenge for packing materials. They may even use Netzero and free pic hosting and really reduce overhead to the bone. Then it is the matter of the horse with the lightest jockey winning the race. If you were successful in your niche if these folks have sense they may undercut your $25 items to $15-20 or so for a while until their supply runs out, or they feel comfortable there. Your profit may be less and you may have to work harder, but that is the reality of online vending. The ones with the least overhead retain the most profit.
Removing these folks via taxman or going postal with an Uzi would not reduce the real problem one iota.
The real problem may well be 'hobbyists'. At least those whose new hobby is pretending to be Santa Claus and packing and shipping all those dollar items for wages that amount to a few pennies per hour. These are folks to who the taxman GIVES money. And if they continue with their folly - Social Services.
posted on September 7, 2001 01:33:09 AM
snakebait
I’m not sure if you are acknowledging being a black-market-dealer.
If you are then I do apologise for my serving suggestion,
I did not mean for your a__ to have felt physically threatened.
There is nothing illegal about tax ‘minimisation’ which is to what I believe you are referring, and I do not mean for your taxes to pay for me.
What I’m trying to say is that honest tax payers pay more taxes, thereby reducing their position in the market place, to compensate for the dishonest traders.
These thieves don’t have a problem with high taxes, they don’t pay tax on their income from dealing at all.
Do you know that someone living in low cost housing could be dumpster diving to make some ‘honest income’ while someone with a Porsche deals on the side and declares none of it.
snakebait & wranglers
I have no problem with competition or profit margins or if persons get their packaging materials free.
I CAN’T COMPETE WELL WITH THIEVES, BECAUSE I’M NOT ONE.
I too own a B/M shop, as well as other interests that has nothing to do with the debate.
We will never have a resolution without an arbitrator, because some of us or if you prefer to say ‘all‘ are thieves and liars, it is for this reason I call for jerry12, I am willing to accept his/her judgement.
Perhaps others would prefer we make wranglers the arbitrator because the poor soul has to live next to a fat bloke.
I’ll start again:
I think the market is tough because of forces both within and also largely out of the legal system.
I think you should start by getting rid of the illegal market
posted on September 7, 2001 05:46:20 PM
GreetingsfromUK’s last statement has much relevance (not) to this debate.
This ‘world record holder’ that claims to sell at a loss is clearly not one of the thieves to which I was referring.
posted on September 8, 2001 04:26:28 PM
costa. I am very sorry that I have upset you. Please be assured that I do not sell stolen goods, and that I pay all UK Taxes that are due. Edited to add that my only current auctions are for the benefit of a UK Registered Charity with a $0.50c N/R
[ edited by GreetingsfromUK on Sep 8, 2001 04:28 PM ]
[ edited by GreetingsfromUK on Sep 8, 2001 04:38 PM ]
posted on September 8, 2001 04:50:29 PMbeing generous on the cost of the item as they range in cost from 4 to 7 dollars depending on which company and they come from and the quantity bought
How can you possibly know what someone else pays for their merchandise? I have bought stuff from people that are going out of business for 10 to 20% of wholesale, and when I get deals like this, you can bet I will sell it at wholesale or below, move it quick, and make money. If that means another dealer gets stuck until my load is gone, OH WELL, TOUGH NUGGIES.
posted on September 8, 2001 07:01:51 PM
Microbes: That is the problem, selling too low when you buy low. Too many sellers base their pricing on what they buy for instead of what the item is worth.
This is what imabrit is talking about. Why give your items away when you could be selling at a higher price and make more $$?
posted on September 8, 2001 07:34:35 PM
I've been vocal on this topic in the past, but wish to repeat my conviction that if all dealers were to simply put their items out at an appropriate market price then eBay would be a big, dull, fully priced antique and closeout store and they would be defunkt in a year.
It's the hobbyists, the gamblers (me), the big closeout companies, etc, who are willing or able to put out items for minimum bids at or below cost who entice customers TO visit eBay in the first place.
(Conversely, if eBay's 'shelves' were full of strictly the crap and closeout stuff that I, and others, sell, it would become old very quickly too. BOTH types of dealers and merchandise are needed to make the whole thing work, IMO).
(not) to this debate.
that claims to sell at a loss is clearly not one of the thieves to which I was referring.