posted on September 10, 2001 06:32:27 AM new
I not being nice while everyone here is calling a seller a fool, crook, a fraud and numerous other names because he merely enforced his published TOS?
FACT: The buyer either didn't read the TOS or tried to force the seller to take a form of payment he didn't expect. This is total disrespect and disreagard for the seller.
No who is the fool here? Not the seller...
[b]FACT: The seller did not cash the MO and did not send it back which he is under no obligation to do. What if his profit margin on this sale a mere 25 cents? He would lose money trying to be "nice"
Who is the crook here. Certainly not the seller.
Yet everyone blames the seller for the buyer's "mistake of convenience." Everyone been namecalling the seller because HE ENFORCED HIS TOS rather than bend to the will of what appears to be an arrogant buyer.
posted on September 10, 2001 06:38:33 AM newMark: I totally agree with you!
Buyer didn't bother to read the seller's TOS and that's the SELLER'S fault?
Buyer sent the seller a payment they don't accept - and that, too, is the seller's fault?
Every seller has the right to make their own TOS, and to accept payments THEY are comfortable with. Whether we agree that the seller should have accepted the payment or not is NOT the point here!! It all comes down to one thing:
posted on September 10, 2001 07:04:32 AM new
If the seller finds it impossible for whatever reason to accept a Money Order that's fine. However, he has no business destroying the buyer's Money Order and then expecting the buyer to send another form of payment.
I really don't understand why people are defending this seller's actions. His behavior seems very unreasonable to me.
posted on September 10, 2001 07:25:31 AM newMost likely the postmaster will send the seller a note saying that he has an unresolved mail order purchase reported and the USPS suggests that the seller resolve the situation. Sellers can not do whatever they please; we are all operating under federal and state laws. If this seller did not return the payment, he still may be responsible even if he doesn't cash it. The money order represented money and was destroyed.
The seller has done nothing illegal. He is under no obligation to return the payment and there isn't a law to make him. He did not cash it, there is no fraud. Whe you fill out a mail fraud form you have to go into detail, when they see the money order isn't cashed, the report will be be given the consideration it deserves...NONE! Buyers can not do what they please and not suffer the consequences.
I have never heard of a money order stop payment costing $25.00. Most are $1.00-$3.00, depending on the amount it costs to reissue it.
posted on September 10, 2001 07:51:42 AM new
Mark090, ExecutiveGirl,
You are both totally missing the point here.
I have stated again and again that I made a MISTAKE sending the incorrect format and was very willing to repay the seller however, they wouldn't send my original payment back and kept threatening me with going to eBay if I don't pay (remember I stated in the original post that this seller went to eBay after a week of nothing instead of just emailing me and asking me what I was doing). How is that for customer service?
When I first posted this in the top ten threads were "seller wants to rip me off", "Can you lie on customs?" and the one I started. The "seller..." thread dealt with a buyer who purchased 2 items from the same seller but the seller wouldn't ship the items together and wanted to charge the customer for 2 separate shipments. The "Can..." thread dealt with a Canadian Customer who wanted the seller to lie on the customs form, the seller wouldn't do it(which is fine), however, the seller went and purposely put a HIGHER value on the form which cost the buyer more in taxes. Three separate auctions and 3 customers who will not be dealing with that seller again. All because the seller can't or doesn't want to perform customer service.
The object of an auction, as we all know, is to get as many bids as possible to drive up the price. If the seller I dealt with had have returned my money order I would have sent it back in correct format (with additional postage charge). I would also most likely be keeping an eye on other auctions he's posted because this seller is pretty good to deal with, I made a mistake but he was really good in handling it. But he wasn't and neither did the other two sellers I mention above. Lost customers, lost bidders, who drive up the
price of an item, because the sellers believe they are at war.
The point is if I'm a seller (and I am) I'm going to cut the buyer some slack and I'm going to go a bit out of my way to make sure they come back. The best customers are the repeat customers. Three sellers will not be
getting repeat customers AND leave a bitter taste with the customer who may become hesitant to bid again with other sellers.
tcinorm2000
[ edited by tcinorm2000 on Sep 10, 2001 07:57 AM ]
posted on September 10, 2001 07:58:11 AM new
"What if his profit margin on this sale a mere 25 cents? He would lose money trying to be "nice" "
YOu must have missed the part where the buyer offered to reimburse the seller for the extra postage. NO loss to the seller here.
"Buyer didn't bother to read the seller's TOS and that's the SELLER'S fault? Buyer sent the seller a payment they don't accept - and that, too, is the seller's fault?"
I don't think most of us are "blaming" the seller for the buyer's mistake - payment types were clearly listed...what we ARE "blaming" the seller for is poor communication skills, lack of flexibility, and so on...such that a deal that should have been a "slam dunk" went sour. They had a buyer's payment IN HAND (so it is clear the buyer is NOT intending to be a deadbeat), and yet they still managed to fumble the ball by being obnoxious (destroying a money order without asking may...or may not...be legal, but it certainly is obnoxious).
There is clearly blame here on both side, but the seller has really managed to lose the deal. Maybe he didn't get enough profit so they wanted to?
PS - I think the biggest laugh from the seller was the "too expensive to return a money order"..this from someone who is charging $9 "shipping" to mail a book. Is this person creative or what? Lets see..exorbitant shipping costs, lame excuses, total disregard for customers...Gee I wish I knew who this seller was, I'd rush out and bid on their items!!!
posted on September 10, 2001 08:02:30 AM new
This one is a no brainer. If the seller wanted to maintain a good relationship, he would have returned the MO. (or cashed it, and shipped the merchandise).
posted on September 10, 2001 08:13:07 AM new
The ironic thing is that the seller did save themselves a 34 cent stamp and envelope.
Of course, they've cost themselves, oh, an hour or so of emailing, NPB time, relisting, etc. $.50/hour wages aren't bad..as long as this is 1885.
The more I think about it, the more I like my "they want to relist it" theory, whether because they wanted to spin the auction wheel again, or because they took a dislike to the buyer...
posted on September 10, 2001 08:14:02 AM new
Amazing!
This isn't a matter of a buyer refusing to abide by a TOS or trying to change a TOS, it's a buyer making a mistake which they are willing to correct. There wasn't any trying to "force" the seller into anything. There was certainly no "arrogance" on the part of anyone but the seller.
Yes, the seller has the right to enforce his TOS & I saw NOTHING in what the buyer has stated that has indicated they feel otherwise. The only arrogance I see is from the seller in their refusal to return the incorrect payment.
We apparently have some sellers on a power trip. They don't have a clue as to what true customer service means (it means sometimes you have to keep quiet & work WITH a customer even when they are wrong & you are right).
posted on September 10, 2001 08:50:07 AM newtcinorm:
I assure you I have not missed any point.
Buyer FAILS to read auction description and bids anyways.
Buyer then sends the seller a PAYMENT THEY DO NOT ACCEPT.
Why couldn't you have just sent the seller a 2nd payment, and asked them to include the 1st payment in with your package so you could get your money back from it? That way no one is out any money, and the problem would have been solved.
I am NOT saying the seller is 100% right in this case, but the seller is not the one who did not follow directions.
I personally do not understand why buyers don't read, and then expect the sellers to bend over backwards for them.
I have news for everyone. The customer is NOT ALWAYS RIGHT! I don't even go into a Walmart believing that as a customer, no matter what, I am always right. There is NO SUCH THING as the customer is always right. Hate to burst your bubble.
posted on September 10, 2001 08:53:07 AM new
By the way - if you have your MO carbon copy or receipt, you can call the # on it, or go to the place you purchased it from, and get your money back. If you have to wait 30 days then so be it. It was your mistake. But you CAN get your money back if it was uncashed.
Now, if it WAS CASHED, then that's a whole new ball game and would be considered FRAUD.
posted on September 10, 2001 08:59:48 AM new
"I have news for everyone. The customer is NOT ALWAYS RIGHT! I don't even go into a Walmart believing that as a customer, no matter what, I am always right. There is NO SUCH THING as the customer is always right. Hate to burst your bubble"
I'm not sure who you are referring to here, but I don't see a whole lot of "bubbles" here for you to burst.
I'd have to reread the whole thread to be sure, but in any case, very few of us are suggesting that the "customer is always right" in that the seller MUST accept the money order.
what we ARE saying is that "sellers should work with customers to the extent possible"..which is a LOT different than your premise ("customer is always right" ).
Seller showed ZERO flexibility in this case.
"Why couldn't you have just sent the seller a 2nd payment, and asked them to include the 1st payment in with your package so you could get your money back from it? That way no one is out any money, and the problem would have been solved. "
Maybe YOU are comfortable sending $28 to a complete stranger (who charges exorbitant shipping, has lame excuses, poor communication skils, etc) for a $5 item, but I'm not, and I don't think many people would be also. Already, the bulk of the risk is on the buyer ("send your money..and maybe, just maybe, you'll actually get what you paid for" ), and given the description of the seller, I'd rather have a negative than take a chance of the seller keeping both payments.
Maybe if the seller had shown even a HINT of customer service the buyer might have felt comfy sending double payment..but he didn't.
In short, the seller snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. Its rare that someone actually has payment in hand and manages to screw it up, but they did!
posted on September 10, 2001 09:08:24 AM new
This is a sad case study in how two wrongs make another wrong.
Think how this could have turned out very positive for both.
Buyer PROMPTLY (let's give them some credit for promptness & willingness to pay) sends wrong payment type.
Seller could have easily responded w/email indicating they don't take money orders but would gladly return it w/item when correct style payment is made.
Buyer could have sent correct type payment & indicated money order SHOULD BE returned w/item.
Instead we have angry buyer & seller. BOTH were wrong, but all it would have taken was for some MUTUAL understanding to have turned this back into a positive situation. Seller should NEVER have destroyed the money order.
posted on September 10, 2001 09:10:38 AM newMaybe YOU are comfortable sending $28 to a complete stranger (who charges exorbitant shipping, has lame excuses, poor communication skils, etc) for a $5 item
First let's talk about "exorbitant shipping". $9.00 for shipping a book. Yeah, seems high to me. BUT... either the auction stated $9 shipping and buyer agreed to it, or $9 shipping was NOT stated in the auction and the buyer bid anyways. NOT THE SELLER'S FAULT. Yeah, it might be high - but if the buyer thought it was high, they shouldn't have bid.
Buyer has 200 feedbacks with 2 negs. Now does he REALLY sound like he's going to rip off a buyer over a $5 book? Doesn't to me. Buyer felt safe sending them $14 to begin with. They should feel just as safe sending them another $14 in hopes to get back their item they purchased and their first MO back (even if it's destroyed). So safety should not be an issue here either.
Poor communication skills. Well, we HAVE only heard one side of the story here... so I think to say the seller had "poor communication skills" would be an assumption.. and you know the rules about assuming things.....
Lame excuses? I didn't see any excuses. The seller sounded short and to the point. He didn't want to have to pay ANY amount out of his pocket for the buyer's mistake. Probably could have been a little more flexible, sure, but it's his game and the buyer has to play by his rules.
posted on September 10, 2001 09:19:38 AM new
"First let's talk about "exorbitant shipping". $9.00 for shipping a book. Yeah, seems high to me. BUT... either the auction stated $9 shipping and buyer agreed to it, or $9 shipping was NOT stated in the auction and the buyer bid anyways. NOT THE SELLER'S FAULT. Yeah, it might be high - but if the buyer thought it was high, they shouldn't have bid. "
You are missing the point entirely. I'm not discussing "is $9 too much". I assume it was stated (although I don't remember seeing that posted), but the point is...I have much MORE trust in a seller with "real" S&H fees than one with "exorbitant" ones. I am MORE willing to work with someone who seems committed to customer satisfaction...than one who seems to be trying to squeeze out every cent in profit by "hiding" some in S&H.
So, again, this is not a question of FAULT of the seller (why do you keep finding this in every post here?), but rather part of a WHOLE picture...of whether a buyer should try to continue a transaction or not.
"Poor communication skills. Well, we HAVE only heard one side of the story here... so I think to say the seller had "poor communication skills" would be an assumption.. and you know the rules about assuming things"
Hey, if you have the other side, post it now! don't hold back....otherwise, of course, all we can do is discuss the issue as posted, eh? I mean, if this post is entirely a fabrication, then of course ANYTHING could be true..but we are discussing it AS POSTED...and AS POSTED, the skills stink.
"Lame excuses? I didn't see any excuses"
LOL! "too expensive" to return a money order is about the LAMEST excuse I've ever heard.
If you missed this..re-read the first post. Again, remember, this is from someone with HUGE S&H fees...and they were even offered reimbursement for the huge (he he) expense involved. But turned that down too.
Or, if you prefer, let me suggest it was a DUMB excuse. As my prior post suggested above, it has cost this seller FAR MORE to "stick to their guns" and losing this sale than it would have to just put the MO in an envelope and send it back.
[ edited by captainkirk on Sep 10, 2001 09:22 AM ]
posted on September 10, 2001 09:25:46 AM new
After reading this thread from start to finish, there are certain sellers I would like NOT to have business with along with the seller this thread is about.
Lets get real, there must be a reason the seller doesn't want to go and cash that money order but I think she has lost out on this sale by this buyer and I hope will have difficulty relisting it with those high postage rates. Wow, I wonder how the book was going to be mailed. Wrapped in gold. It has to be something special to have a $9.00 shipping charge. We shouldn't be chastising this buyer for sending a money order we should be doing that because they were going to pay those high shipping charges. Just joking. Also after reading this thread I only have one thing to say. "People who live in Glass Houses Shouldn't Throw Stones."
If it was me I would take the neg and move on. Ebay has such a large following that the book will probably surface again.
posted on September 10, 2001 09:29:25 AM newI have much MORE trust in a seller with "real" S&H fees than one with "exorbitant" ones
Just curious, do you know how much this book weighed? Do you know "exactly" how much this book would cost to ship? Do you know if this was for Priority or Media mail?
We have not quite established that this seller was overcharging on fees, so not trusting this seller for this reason is just another assumption.
posted on September 10, 2001 09:35:59 AM new
Well, I'm not sure if I would say its an assumption...my reasoning is based on the history of book items on ebay (most ship for a couple of bucks or thereabouts), plus the buyer showed surprise at the shipping cost (and remember, this buyer is a seller also, and thus familiar with shipping), so I suspect my "assumption" is pretty good in this case.
In any case,it really doesn't matter. I was really just venturing MY opinion on the fact that I would rather take a neg rather than continue dealing with this seller and risk them having two payments. The shipping was merely a part of that "atmosphere of distrust and dislike" that I would assign to this seller. As soon as they said it would be "too expensive" to return my money order, alarm bells would go off!
The bottom line: the seller showed zero customer service skills and managed to blow up an auction that they had payment in hand. No matter how you argue about the subtle points thereof, that is still the final result.
and as I find that I am starting to repeat myself, I'd best be off and do some other work. I'm sure i've made my thoughts on this situation quite clear...if not boringly clear...
[ edited by captainkirk on Sep 10, 2001 09:51 AM ]
posted on September 10, 2001 09:56:37 AM new
Shipping of $9.00...
I just checked and if the book was being shipped media rate coast to coast, it would have to weight 20 POUNDS to cost $7.93, a figure that still leaves something for a handling charge. How many 20-pound books do we see for sale for $5 on eBay?
The priority rate would be something like $7.75 coast to coast, for a 5-pound book. Shipping priority is unusual in the used-book biz, but of course it's possible. ANYTHING is possible, as we have seen on this thread.
I expect the buyer will be along shortly to clear this up, but in the absence of further information, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that $9 for shipping is exhorbitant and that I wouldn't feel real good about sending a second payment to this seller without having received my first one back.
posted on September 10, 2001 11:20:26 AM new
CaptainKirk, Eventer and Libra63 show excellent integrity and I would buy from them anytime. You are all talking about the "customer always being right." Some customers may be very unreasonable and perhaps mentally challenged- as was the case with my famous thread where the buyer refused delivery twice because of the race of the drivers. I have blocked those buyers from my auctions and would not be so kind if a similar problem presented itself again. I still treat my buyers the way I would like to be treated. If CS on E-Bay is going to be this bad, why should I buy from you and not my local antique bookstore? Certainly the time and trouble in this transaction has made the buyer sour about this book. Perhaps the bookstore owner would thank me for my business and treat me kindly. It would be worth it to me to spend the extra $$. At least I would have a better day.
According to CA Law, "it is the buyers obligation to pay and receive delivery." This buyer sent a money order in "good faith." The seller should have returned it at his own expense, if necessary. The key word in the sentence is "good faith." A Judge would think it was irresponsible that the seller destroyed the money order to save .34 cents! I don't think it would go over well in the real world. The seller didn't care whether or not it would be difficult for the buyer to get his money back from the bank or have to wait a month to get a refund. I know that my bank charges $20-$25 to have a money order stopped. If the seller's profit margin is .25, that is his problem and none of the buyers concern. It would do most of you well to read the commercial code that governs buying and selling in your state. I know that my business will be successful because we treat our customers well and have repeat business. This seller would drop dead if he had to send a "thank you note" with a purchase, the ink and card would break him financially.
posted on September 10, 2001 04:57:03 PM new
The customer admits to not reading the ad and sends "wrong" payment method.
Seller contacts customer explaining that his payment is not acceptable.
Customer says "OK".
(Up to this point, sounds like the Seller & Buyer are Courteous!)
Seller waits another week ( probably expecting another payment since the customer said "OK"...)
The seller does not receive another payment nor does he hear from the customer.
The seller files NPB alert.
Seems like that is where the customer is upset and the seller follows suit.
Now, several days (possible weeks) have past since the ending of the auction.
Customer asks?/tells? the seller to return MO before he sends another payment.
Seller is not willing to pay for cost of sending payment back.
More emails ensue.
Customer says, "I state that I will not send them another payment."
Seller now destroyed the MO.
Makes me wonder if the customer was courteous or demanding?
If I were the customer, when I received the first email from the seller telling me I had made an error, I would have apologized and let him know that I was willing to pay him by paypal or whatever method he expected. I also would have asked him to mail me back the MO or if he preferred, to send it along with the item. Up to that point this seller seemed Courteous and I would not have had a reason to "mistrust" him.
As far as the S&H.
If customer did not read the terms in the auction he might not have read how much S&H was. That is clearly the responsibility of the customer to READ before placing a BID!
If S&H was not in the Ad then this customer should have emailed him PRIOR to placing his Bid.
If this book weighed 6 lbs ...zone 6 it would have cost $8.55. In Zone 7, cost would be $9.55. (Priority)
I have not heard this customer complain about the shipping costs. Plus, he did not complain to the seller about it when he sent the first payment.(?)
He should NOT complain at this point, as he is the one who is responsible to find the S&H costs BEFORE placing the bid.
