posted on September 10, 2001 09:21:26 AMmost bidders and cybershoppers are educated people,they should know that if they are paying less than store price,they are taking a risk,especially from individuals,especially on ebay and especially not being able to examine the item physically.
Yes, an eBay buyer is taking a risk of being ripped off. A higher risk of being ripped off than if that buyer does business with a national chain.
posted on September 10, 2001 09:24:30 AM
Do not refund.
You listed the item "AS IS" and that is what it means. AS IS for items you DON'T think is worth inspecting or testing.
If I buy a computer power supply off an AS IS table in the computer store, they are not going to let me test it, they are not going to let me open it up before I buy it. And if it is broken when I try it, then I get to keep all the damaged parts.
Obviously your buyer was looking for something NIB for cheap.
posted on September 10, 2001 09:29:00 AM
I think I have found the auction in question.
I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand, the terms are stated on the auction page "All Sales Final". OTOH, the cosmetic condition of the items themselves weren't really addressed, it just says they were tested for funtionality.** Plus, the photo doesn't tell anything either. It's dark and taken at a distance. No detail shown. Plus, they have the covers on. It would be better to take a closeup of the items without the cover so they could see there are no holes, etc.
I also sell the occasional/odd item "as-is". I use the "as-is" for the occasional item that is broken/damaged/good for parts, or something that I have no way to test to determine if it's actually working. The customer knows he's buying damaged or untested. He's buying "as-is" and that's pretty clear.
But rewassago, I think you should refund this time, and seriously consider if you need to have a no return policy on this stuff you're selling.
After all, it seems that most of your customers are happy with these items. You do look the stuff over and test the items beforehand, so you know what the condition of each piece is. And, if you know the condition and describe it accurately, there should be little reason for returns anyway.
A seller, any seller, needs to have some kind of standard return policy in any kind of on-line selling. To do otherwise is not a good plan.
JMO
** OK, it does have the 5 stars for appearance.
[ edited by loosecannon on Sep 10, 2001 09:41 AM ]
posted on September 10, 2001 09:53:18 AM
Why do we buy on eBay?
I personally would never buy anything electronic from an eBay seller or any item that was refurbished, etc. I would never deal with an "AS IS" seller either.
However, bidders likely choose to buy these items on eBay because they are under the mistaken assumption that the seller will respond honourably if there is a problem. Damage that was not disclosed is problematic. A seller who refuses a refund under those conditions (and piously preaches about his sanctimonious terms) is, in my opinion, acting dishonestly and dishonourably.
posted on September 10, 2001 10:39:43 AMI would never deal with an "AS IS" seller either.
engelskdansk
What about people that buy things "as-is" for parts or restoration? Parts are valuable, especially old parts not made anymore.
I recently sold a guy 2 old amplifiers--electronics items--untested, as-is. He happily accepted these terms because they were old, untested, desirable and hard to get, not to mention he got them for a very fair price. Last I heard, he was refurbishing them and was happy with his purchase.
So you see, there are all kinds of buyers. Some are happy to buy as-is.
Selling an item "as-is" does not make one a crook.
Since those pics were of the unit and showed no holes, and none were there when sent, this is simply not a case of misrepresenting the item.
The item shipped is simply not in the same condition as now. The only concern was whether they were inspected and tested as claimed. They were.
An auction is not K-Mart. Especially in real life. You cannot purchase an item at auction, break it, and return it to the customer counter.
At the price these speakers sold for, apparently it was a feverish bidding war where they probably went over retail. And then buyer realized it. The issue is one of buyer fraud and excess testosterone, not seller impropriety.
posted on September 10, 2001 11:01:16 AMSince those pics were of the unit and showed no holes, and none were there when sent, this is simply not a case of misrepresenting the item.
But were those pics of these particular units? Or does rewassago take one picture & use it for multiple auctions? If so, then it IS possible for the pic not to match the unit.
Unfortunately, only rewassago can answer whether this is the exact pic for this exact item or if they use a single pic for all their items like this.
Let's withhold judgement until we hear from rewassago on this.
posted on September 10, 2001 11:05:45 AM
One more thing...
A way to include a lengthy FAQ or TOS without making your ad a mile long is to include an attachment of it in your EOA notices, or even insert the full text. Then perhaps give them a certain time to back out if they find any items specifically objectionable.
I'd rather have an NPB than someone who falsely claims damage or that the item was not as described. I have had two returns of that type, and it frankly irks me. I lose money there, because on the 'Not As Described' claim I am responsible for shipping. And if I request a photo, then they will simply break the item. I have had a couple of those too.
The lesson I learned was that if someone has second thoughts on a deal, cancel the transaction and forget it. Just maybe get them to pay your ebay fees and relist....
posted on September 10, 2001 11:06:16 AMI recently sold a guy 2 old amplifiers--electronics items--untested, as-is.
I have sold vintage electronics & computers the same way, and some of them bring BIG money. When it's old enough to be truely "collectable", there are buyers who want stuff like this to either restore, or to use for parts to restore another peice. Nothing wrong with selling like this, as long as "untested" means untested, and not "tested but bad". I've got feedback from several "untested" items that worked fine when the buyers got them and had a way to test them. (probably lost big bucks because I didn't have the proper equipment to test the stuff with )
posted on September 10, 2001 11:06:38 AMSelling an item "as-is" does not make one a crook.
Agreed.
What makes one a crook is describing a broken item as working, sold as is, and then refusing a return when the customer reports it as broken.
It's all in the accuracy of the description.
I don't think rewassago deliberately misdescribed this item, but it ended up misdescribed, and fetched a price beyond what it would have fetched should it have been accurately described.
posted on September 10, 2001 11:42:42 AM
"I don't think rewassago deliberately misdescribed this item, but it ended up misdescribed, and fetched a price beyond what it would have fetched should it have been accurately described."
I disagree. We're talking about a SPEAKER with a "hole" in it. If rewassago tests his items as he says he does, and with his feedback profile what it is, IMO HE MUST, then it wouldn't have played with a hole in it. Had it played, it would have been so distorted, he would have noticed. Clearly, to me at least, this is shipping damage or mis-representation by the BUYER.
If it is the auction that I "THINK" it is, check the buyers feedback roofguy, they buyer is likely the flake here.
posted on September 10, 2001 01:59:52 PM
wow, a lot of people quick to make the assumption that either the buyer or revvassago has done something underhanded.
revvassago,
that you posted this here, and have said it's possible you overlooked the hole, shows you want to do the right thing and aren't sure you did. in other words, despite writing to the buyer that this is your last word on it, you might still be willing to negotiate. if the damage really was there before you shipped, yes, you should refund. it should have been in the description. if it wasn't, either it was damaged during shipping, or possibly the buyer is trying to do a 'bait and switch.' was it insured? i don't remember now if you've said.
can you ask the buyer if he has a digital camera, or access to one, to take a shot of the hole and send it to you? depending on where and how large the hole is, that might jog your memory, or allow you to see it's impossible you wouldn't have noticed it. if, due to size and position of the hole you feel it's impossible you wouldn't have noticed it, and it's insured, file for insurance. i'd like to know if there was any damage to the box, too.
posted on September 10, 2001 02:29:25 PM
in another thread when the seller talked about how consumers returned used ink cartridges and how she buy pallets of goods.
i asked her if she has any help and where does she store her stuff?
her reply is yes,she does have help and it is none of my business where she stores the stuff.
could it be possible that her helper did not catch the hole or it was damaged while in storage.
i still say if you want to engage in this trade long term,you better crunch the numbers and figure your margin is fat enough to compensate you for this kind of hassle and possible refund.
if he returns the item,who is paying shipping?
some customers expect seller to pay shipping for returned items.
on one hand ,bidders want a bargain,if you dont start the open price low,they wont bid.
after they win the item they expect the seller to move swiftly,pack superbly and provide refund /replacement/returns like neiman marcus,next time ask them to go to neiman marcus.
posted on September 10, 2001 06:36:54 PM
kitty,
The digital camera idea sounds great, but only works for honest customers. And in that case it is not needed.
If the customer is dishonest, they will simply create the damage to be photographed.
And you will be returned an unsellable item.
The two times I asked for photos I received photos of items that were damaged in unlikely places. Like the radio with the side panel completely shattered, yet the components right next to it totally undamaged. Like the statue with broken feet, when the arms and head should have been the most fragile to the pressures and shocks of shipping. I no longer do this, and I've noticed that 'damaged' items are being returned in fully resellable condition, with the 'damage' being trivial to the extreme.
The strange thing is that I have had of rash of items sell lately for ridiculously high prices. These have flaws that are clearly stated, and many of these have done better than items advertized as perfectly functional. I feel serious collectors/hobbyists do not mind doing repairs as long as they know ahead of time what to expect.
posted on September 10, 2001 06:59:36 PM
sometimes these constant complainers/bidders will go away if you ignore them,sometimes!!
i sold a book 384 pages thick full of playboy playmates and the buyer said 34 pages were ripped off at 10 page lot??
i told her not so,as my supplier and myself cannot be so blind,there is no way we would miss a book missing 34 pages!!!!
she wants to return the book and have me paid postage,i am still waiting for the book to come back so i can take a good look .
i also told amzn where this book was sold that i dont care about their customer a to z protection promise if it turns out the customer is EL WACKO!!!!
The sad truth is that in this business we are the mercy of whackos. Here the feedback system actually works against us, and negs are far worse for sellers than buyers, and so easy for a psycho to dispense. SafeHarbor is a joke, period.
The only prevention we have is to be very careful of buyers who email asking stupid questions and win the bid. In my experiences these have a much higher probability of being nut cases....
posted on September 11, 2001 05:27:48 AM
>I am just wondering if any of you think I am wrong for being stubborn and sticking to my TOS<
Ummmm, yes.
I have a problem with the following statement...
>I will acknowledge that it is completely possible that I missed this damage<
..and the following as others have mentioned...
>5.Listing and Selling.
5.1 Listing Description. You must be legally able to sell the item(s) you list for sale on our Site. You must describe your item and all terms of sale on the listing page of our Site. <
Good enough reasons for me to offer my opinion that a refund should be given.
Although we all have rules, sometimes we just have to 'give' a little.
(especially when there is any doubt about them as in this case)
Just my opinion as a seller (and buyer) with the facts provided.
posted on September 11, 2001 07:42:32 AM
i recalled reading the thread that this transaction is over 100 dollars,so why not call this person and find out -when 2 persons talk on the phone instead of emailing,issues are often resolved in a reasonable manner.
posted on September 11, 2001 08:40:37 AM
As an ebay seller I always and I mean always describe the item in full. Pictures that I have on are the ones that belong to that item. I do not put pictures on that I find in magazines and that doesn't show the true item. I will not bid on items that have TOS's like that, even if I want the product. I think a full refund should be given with no hesitation on the sellers part. Come on sellers it is time to start being honest. Sellers talk about Non Pay Bidders and I wonder why they are non pay, because it is sellers like this. This seller can be an honest seller, selling items that he/she has never seen, if that is true it is refund time. Sellers on ebay think that this auction site is a quick way to make money and they don't care what the product is as long as they make their money. There are many honest sellers but one bad seller puts a damper on the rest. Why do you think ebay puts rules for selling, because of sellers like this. Refund and move on or the buyer should report this to ebay and have ebay suspend the seller. Lets stop the fraud and get back to business. This should never have had this big discussion because a refund should be made with no hesitation.
posted on September 13, 2001 05:43:40 PM
Thanks for the update...
I understand that there is a marking pencil that you can purchase to mark your items so that no one but you will be able to tell if the item is yours. Maybe that would be a good investment for you just in case this happens again and then when someone tries to return items you can tell them that you have marked them with a special mark.
Do you think that they had speakers like that and tried to exchange theirs for yours?
posted on September 14, 2001 04:49:22 AM
If a person has to click a link to get to your FAQ page and search for the particular question and answer that deals with their particular problem, I don't feel you stand on very firm ground. I think we as sellers need to stand behind our merchandise instead of hiding behind "as is" statements buried inside our TOS.
posted on September 14, 2001 06:35:13 AM
the seller has been selling on ebay for 4 years,which makes him/her a veteran.
so selling store returns is new to her,but nothing new dealing with ebay bidders.
she said she has tested the speakers and they are fine,and if there is a big hole she would have caught it.
seller sells store return seeing chance to make some profit,buyer buys store return seeing a chance to save some money.
transaction went sour,if there is hole in the speaker,then buyer learns a lesson for buying item signt unseen from individual.
if he buys it from a reputable land store,he would not have this problem,but then he would pay 3 times more!!
Sorry, Eventer, it appears as though I misconstrued what was originally stated.
