posted on December 7, 2000 12:57:22 PM
I guess turtlesgirl and maddienicks comments have shown that the choice of abortion is not taken lightly. It is something that the woman has to live with the rest of her life. Thank goodness we have and right to choice! Thank you to both of you for your courage to tell your stories!
posted on December 7, 2000 01:07:31 PM
To tell you the truth, I appreciate the comments that call me "brave" but that's the last thing I feel right now. I feel stupid, overwhelmed, scared, selfish, alone, scared, guilty, ashamed, and have I mentioned scared.
Stupid because I'm old enough to know better. Overwhelmed because this has been an all consuming issue in my life since I found out and all of the other issues in my life are being sorely neglected. Selfish because I am doing this because it's what is best for me and me alone. Alone because no matter what my husband says it's my body and I'm the one feeling what I'm feeling. Guilty because I'm ultimately taking a life and do I really have the right to do that. Ashamed because, in our society, this is an evil thing today and part of me believes that. Scared because this is a complete unknown. I don't know what it's going to feel like and I don't know what I'm going to feel like afterwards. But, like I've said before, I don't really believe there is any other choice for me.
Thanks again for the support, this has been a very hard couple of weeks for me.
posted on December 7, 2000 01:16:52 PM
moonmem: You are basing your entire opinion on how a woman feels by two women's comments? Don't think so. How many people do you think are going to come on here and say, "Yes, I had an abortion, I did not care a bit about it, or the baby, and I did it just for myself?" Not many. I have a friend who was pregnant when we were both 17. She was scheduled for surgery and she knew she was pregnant. She had a friend giver her a urnine sample and used that for the pregnancy test before the surgery. This was a long, involved surgery that would have caused harm to a fetus. A few weeks after surgery she "discovered" she was pregnant, and it was determined that she was pregnant during surgery. She got her abortion, and in her mind it was fine because their would have been damage to the baby had it been born. Had another friend who had one at 14, what is a 14 year old doing having sex anyway?
turtlesgirl: I am sorry for you, and sorry that you feel that you have to make that choice. I wish there was another way for you, but obviously not.
posted on December 7, 2000 01:23:34 PM
Rosiebud asked: "What this thread is missing, is the viewpoint of someone who's had an abortion. What prompted them to do this, rather than to seek out other alternatives? Is their stand on it the same now as it was when they had one? If it's different, what made them change their viewpoint? This sensitive issue is missing the one set of people who should be heard."
It was 30 years ago give or take a year. It isnt a time I kept track of, lets say. I was young, stupid, and doing the same thing maddienicks was doing and didnt think of the consequences of mixing drugs and sex in the early 1970's. Make love, not war, bullcr@p. Why did I? Because of fear and knowing what was in store for the child, to be born to a child. Old enough to have sex and get loaded and party, but not old enough to have the BRAINS to know any better. Would I do it again? Yes. Do I regret it? Yes. Will I live that decision the rest of my life? Yes. Has it affected me in the NOW? Yes.
posted on December 7, 2000 01:57:26 PM
First, I'd like to state that I support a woman's right to choose whether to have an abortion. Having said that, I would hope that she would do this early in her pregnancy although I realize medical reasons may come up later that could affect her choice.
My first experience with abortion came in college when two friends of mine had abortions. I'll date myself - this was pre Roe V Wade. A back alley abortionist (a nurse's aide) performed these abortions and one 17 year old woman ended up in the hospital with a raging infection. Another friend went the legal route. But she ran out of time before two psychiatrists could file affidavits pertaining to her mental health with the court.
In middle age, I've known other women to have abortions. One's husband was bi-polar and she could not face raising a child at that stage of their relationship - he had tried suicide twice. Another had raised two kids and at 43 found herself pregnant - both women used birth control. I try not to be so judgmental, because we don't always know what others are facing.
[ edited by SAABsister on Dec 7, 2000 01:59 PM ]
I'm sorry I'm never very good at getting my point across. I'll try again
Aside from any medical issues in which case I think yes a woman has a right to determine that for herself.
Others reasons for a girl or woman to have an abortion I have heard are
1) being young
2) not knowing better
3) not having the financial resources to take care of a child
4) Inconvienience
5) birth control failed
among others. This society has said that it is a womans choice to end a pregnancy because she shouldn't have to face the consequences of a decision she made if she doesn't want to citing any one of the reasons above or a combination thereof.
It does not however allow the boy/man/father the same. If a father were to say
The birth control failed and I am young, have no way to financially provide for this child and therefore I shouldn't have to pay child support for the next 18 years of my life.
Society would say tough patooties. You made the child and are now responsible for it.
This I believe is as it should be. They should take responsibility for a child they created however I am just curious why it is we do not allow the boy an out but are all for allowing the girl an out. What is the difference between a young girl and a young boy who made the same mistake?
Oddish~ The Odd One
posted on December 7, 2000 02:32:33 PM
Good question Oddish. Speaking only from my own experience, the "partner" who "contributed" to my "stupidity" didnt want me to do what I did, but I did it anyway, regardless of his wishes.
And that didnt answer your very good question, did it? I think its very much like asking why a guy can be laying lots of women "scoring well" and being "studly", but if a woman does it, shes a "ho".
My brain is rattling around thinking (see what you did?) Perhaps the male doesnt have to carry the child in his body for 9 months? Perhaps society doesnt see the male as having a good enough excuse to be "let out" of it? May as well ask why grass is green and sky is blue. Lots of answers and none fit. Im just guessing as to the whys and wherefores.
[ edited by FrannyS on Dec 7, 2000 02:34 PM ]
[ edited by FrannyS on Dec 7, 2000 02:38 PM ]
posted on December 7, 2000 03:26:03 PM
Oddish, I'll take a crack at answering your question, although as with all "answers" to this question, it won't satisfy completely.
Let's say an unwanted pregnancy happens. The couple have already gone their separate ways and are now in a dilemma. The man (by law) will be paying for the next 18 years. But so will the woman! The next 18 years she will most likely be spending as much money and time as the man on raising that child--probably more, for that matter! (Child support does not cover everything by a long shot!) And in *addition*, she also has the burden of bearing the child physically. Do you see what I am saying here? Yes, they were both young and foolish (or the birth control failed, or whatever). But if you put each person's new liability on the two sides of a scale, the outcomes are unequal. He has 18 years of child support to pay and emotional investment. She has 18 years of child expenses to pay, emotional investment, *and* the burden of physically carrying the child. The reason why I will *always* argue in favor of the woman having the final decision is because of this added burden that she is under. (Some women develop lifelong problems with diabetes, etc. after a pregnancy, caesareans are a major operation, etc. etc...not every pregnancy is a walk in the park and in many cases it is very much a burden, even in these days of modern medicine.)
If the man carried the child, then I would argue that he should have the final say. But physical realities make that just a figure of speech. The reality is that the genders are not identical in the burdens carried during pregnancy, and actually even thereafter the emotional and oftent the financial burdens still fall on the woman---even when every penny of the child support is paid.
posted on December 7, 2000 03:46:18 PM
Edited because I changed my mind about sharing my views. I don't want to offend anyone and would have.
[ edited by RainyBear on Dec 7, 2000 03:49 PM ]
posted on December 7, 2000 03:50:03 PM
There's nothing "brave" about having an abortion. Brave is a word reserved for those women who have the courage and fortitude to have the baby, to raise it against all odds, to love it no matter what.
I'd better self-moderate out of this thread. I find the "pained heroine" routine a little hard to stomach.
posted on December 7, 2000 04:02:14 PM
Well, it seems that the "middle ground" answer that Stusi was seeking is variable depending on our individual viewpoints...like every other question.
Oddish, thank you for addressing my question last night about "why," abortions under certain conditions (fetal deformity, rape, incest, mother's health) are somehow regarded as 'less wrong' than abortions which are not based in those situations. I will admit that I still don't understand that, but it's sure not your fault.
Turtlesgirl, Kris, Franny...thank you for making a difficult decision to share your situations with us. I cannot help but contrast your own statements regarding your feelings with the anecdotal statements of others describing the emotional turmoil (or lack thereof) of their friends or acquaintances who have had abortions. One thing that strikes me...each of you have descibed an emotionally wrenching decision, one that you gave (or are giving) serious thought...not decisions made nonchalantly. And it seems to me that none of us can know what is truly in the mind of another person in this situation. We may assume by their outer demeanor that they are blase in regard to this when, in fact, that may be nothing more than a facade triggered as a defense mechanism. Perhaps it is a serious miscalculation to assume any woman's feelings about such an intensely personal decision/choice/experience based on what we observe, or even what they 'tell' us.
Ken, you asked about the 'father' in this equation as a factor in the decision. I don't know anyone else's view, but here's mine...the father is a critical part of such a decision, and if present and identifiable, should be an equal and active partner to the thought process to determine the ultimate decision. For me, there would not be a pregnancy without a responsible partner. But that is not the case for everyone, and it might not have been the case for me at a younger (and less contemplative) time. But factually, for me, if I found myself pregnant (at my current advanced age and current state of health as well as my history of difficulty carrying to term), even if the father were 'perfect' in my own assessment of 'father material' and sincerely enthusiastic regarding the impending event, I believe that I would choose to terminate the pregnancy. I would not choose adoption, I would not choose to have the child. As I say, that's what I "believe" I would do...I wouldn't really know unless walking in those shoes, and an essential part of my decision would be a consideration of the father's wishes. But ultimately and realistically, it is my life (for the next 22 years at least) and it is my health (as affected by carrying and bearing a child) which is most affected by the decision, and it would be mine alone.
Oddish, (again...full circle)...your question (about whether or not a father (of any age) should also have an "out" )...well--that's really very hard, isn't it? As you know, I have a son who is 20. He has, in the last year, had a few "scares" in this regard. He is sexually active, and understands how it 'works', but I'd have to say honestly, he doesn't impress me as having fatherhood in mind when faced with the opportunity to have sex with an equally willing girl. But I will also say, in all fairness, that as we have discussed the "what ifs" of these situations, I have never once heard him express any intentions but to own his actions and the consequences of them, although regretting his own impetuosity and irresponsibility in the 'heat of the moment' (so to speak). Perhaps not all young men react in this way, and I suspect that he is in a minority in his attitude. And I'll be honest with you--in my discussions with him on this subject (read: while I'm ripping his skin off), my greater concern is not whether or not he is headed for parenthood, but rather, what STDs he may have exposed himself to by his actions. Whatever immoral or indiscreet act he may be involved in, however poor I may think those decisions are, I do not believe he should have to die for them. It is a different world, with a different set of issues, than it was when I was 20.
I will remain firmly committed to choice. As someone said earlier, it is unlikely that any discussion board input will change the minds or positions of any of us. But I will emphasize that "choice" does not necessarily equate to "abortion." Choice is just that...
I don't think we have met before. Very nice to meet you
So if I am understanding you. The burden of carrying the child 9 months would give the woman the final say in whether or not to keep the pregnancy?
If I am understanding that right then she would have the right to make that decision based on simply the fact that she doesn't feel like it? Why are the arguements for pro-choice so often about financial status or age of the mother but that is not taken into consideration when holding the father responsible. It seems uneven to me. But yes I do agree with 100% that the mother will take the brunt of the responsibility even in a loving two parent home that is most often the case. I also agree that things between the sexes are uneven by nature. Well let me ammend that I think they do even out..the sexes are different yet equal but if you take things one at a time often one sex or the other is the underdog so to speak.
Hellcat
There are other things that come into play which I won't get into on a public board so I am limited in an explanation.
About the father..I don't think he should have an out. I think if he had sex willingly he should take responsibility for that action and for the child or children it may produce. I just want to know why people who believe in pro-choice also don't believe in giving the same choice to the father?
Oddish~ The Odd One
[ edited by oddish4 on Dec 7, 2000 08:41 PM ]
posted on December 7, 2000 05:01:53 PM
oddish- i am a man and do not understand your question. what same choice? are you asking for men to have the deciding say(doesn't seem quite fair)? or an equal say(a stalemate)? it has to ultimately be the woman's decision.
posted on December 7, 2000 05:06:44 PM
What was the name of that king, in the Bible, who had to choose what to do about the two mothers fighting over the baby? Where he said to cut the child in half? Although that situation is about adoption and not abortion, it still pertains. Sometimes, things have to be done that arent necessarily what one wants done. The repercussions can be horrendous to the one doing the decision making, as well as the one the decision affects. So many different scenarios to think on, so many strong opinions of one side versus the other. What if what if what if what if. Who knows what if. And until one is in the same situation, same time frame, same everything, nobody knows the what ifs.
My stance is that aside from rape/incest or the life of the mother there should be no abortions.
But other people believe that it should be the womans choice regardless of her reasons. Some of those reasons bandied about that I have read could include she is too young to have a child or the birth control failed so it's not really her fault etc. etc. all taken as valid reasons for having an abortion if that is what she chooses to do..an out so to speak from taking the responsibility of the choice to have sex.
My question is why aren't men givin the same choice? The choice to say well I was young, the birth control failed, I'm not ready to be a father or for any other reason. He is givin no such choice except the choice of whether or not to have sex. After that we expect him to take responsibility for any consequences of that choice.
I'm not suggesting that he not be responsible for I think he should be..but I think the girl should be too.
Oddish~ The Odd One
posted on December 7, 2000 05:40:10 PM
I guess Im just confused as to what youre aiming at Oddish. It isnt you, its the whole concept of it. What you are asking fits into many categories...which one do you want addressed? Does the man have a right to say whether the woman should have an abortion? Does the man have the right to say "I was too young, so yes, have an abortion because I wont pay for child support?", or "the rubber broke, so get rid of the kid"?, or "Im not ready?" And if that is the situation, why would he have the right to tell the woman what to do with her body? He isnt carrying the child. She is. See? Very confusing. Speaking for myself, I need a scenario, otherwise I get discombooberated:silly
And if I CAN answer, I can only answer for what was MY situation. It was long ago, but I will never forget. And Im willing to explain the best I can, from these 30 year OLDER eyes compared to those 17 year old eyes. You have to remember, 17 back then was not quite the same as 17 year old NOW.
edited to add that I can try to share. But only if Im not attacked or called names because of a decision I made back then.
[ edited by FrannyS on Dec 7, 2000 05:41 PM ]
posted on December 7, 2000 05:48:16 PM
Oddish.. cause once that baby comes into the world you can not shirk your responsibilities. That is why a court will say "hmm, pay child support". That is why the law gets involved if the mother leaves her kid alone so she can stay out all night. Once that kids out in the world, it does need to be taken care of.
It's the before that's the topic though.. so I can't really think of the two situations being related at all and there is no way that you can draw any sort of comparison.
edited to add:
I suppose you could draw a comparison IF everyone involved could have the same standard of when life starts. But because there's no set rule, by law, you can not make a comparison between a woman choosing an abortion because she's young... vs a young man trying to skirt paying child support.
[ edited by rosiebud on Dec 7, 2000 05:52 PM ]
posted on December 7, 2000 05:54:39 PM
Nice to meet you too Oddish .
I'm also having a hard time explaining what I mean. Let me try to respond to what you wrote here:
>>My question is why aren't men givin the same choice? The choice to say well I was young, the birth control failed, I'm not ready to be a father or for any other reason. He is givin no such choice except the choice of whether or not to have sex. After that we expect him to take responsibility for any consequences of that choice.<<
After the child is born, neither parent has any of the above choices. After the birth, the mother can't say "I was young, the birth control failed, and I'm not ready to be a mother" either---unless she gives up the child for adoption in which case they are both no longer responsible for it. I realize it's more common for a man to pay child support, but even in my own family I know of a mom paying support to a dad after a divorce. That is no longer a freakish situation. Happens quite a bit in families where the woman is the primary breadwinner or the man is disabled, etc. etc. So as much as the mother would like to walk away from the infant, she can't, either. So *neither one*, really, has the ability to "get out of the responsibilities" they both created, once that child is born.
The woman has the balance of power *before* the child is born---now that I would agree with. And at that stage, yes, the man is left with only the ability to "go along" with whatever she decides. I do think that there's something unfair there, in a purely abstract sense, but there is no way to restore the tangible balance of power evenly. The woman will always have either the unfair advantage or the unfair burden----I.e. the advantage by having the ability to decide a man's future by deciding whether to carry his child, *or* the burden, if she must physically carry and give birth to unwanted children if that decision is not allowed her. I do think it's unfair. But it is like saying it's unfair that women have less upper body strength than men or unfair that women can enjoy multiple orgasms and men can't. It's not possible to be exactly even-steven about thanks to physical differences between the two.
Because the burdens on this specific point are not equal, the decision should not be divided equally. I believe that the woman should have the final say. The fact that some women abuse the freedom is not sufficient cause to revoke the freedom.
Boy and girl both 17. They use birth control but she gets pregnant. She decides she wants to keep the baby and the courts say that once born he must pay child support because he helped make the baby. So he goes to court and says...I am young. I have my whole life ahead of me. I want to go to college and be a doctor. There is no way I can pay for a child and go to school. I ask that you do not require me to pay child support to this child because I did use birth control but it failed which is not my fault. Why should I have to pay for 18 years for one mistake? I took all the precautions I should have so let me off the hook. The courts would say...not a chance you play you pay.
OK boy and girl. They use birth control but she still gets pregnant. She is in excellent health so that is not an issue. She wants to go to college and be a doctor but can't raise a child and go to school at the same time. She chooses to abort the baby.
Why is one scenario ok and the other isn't?
It is for the same reason, same circumstances. The girl can decide not to take responsibility but the boy can't.
No I don't think in any way it should be the mans decision on if to abort or not. I just don't think once you are pregnant barring rape or life of the mother that that choice should belong to either the man or the woman.
please tell me I am making sense this time?
Oddish~ The Odd One
posted on December 7, 2000 06:09:10 PM
My stance is that everyone is on this earth to make their own choices. Good or bad. I do not believe anyone should have large families, so in 1974 when I was 23, after the birth of my second child , I had a tubal ligation. That did of course settle the abortion issue for me personally. I would have had one though if it had come up and I thought it was what I had to do at the time.
Just because I believe that people should not have large families ,as our Earth is woefully overpopulated , I would never go after legislation to force those people to have fewer children or to have abortions. It is all a matter of choice. We should only have to answer to our maker, who ever she may be.
I know two people who have had abortions, both of them take that decision very seriously.It haunts them still ,after more than twenty years,but both of them would do it again. I am so very glad I never had to make that choice myself.But I am so glad people can make the choice for themselves if they need to.
I do not want to tell anyone how to live their life,and I do not want anyone telling me how to live mine.
When does a life get a soul in the womb,when does life begin? I don't believe we are supposed to know that, I think that is for God [in whatever form]to know.We are just on this earth to muddle through the best way we can. Later we have to hope we did it right.
posted on December 7, 2000 06:19:03 PM
Oddish, Let me give you my view on your question.
I think it is up to the girl to have the say and not the boy because even if he pays child support for 18 years he is very likely to go his own way,become that doctor, get married to someone else and usually to try to get out of paying the original child support . He is rarely there for the emotional well being of the child, he does not take care of it when it is sick. In short he is not the one who either will carry the baby to term or to raise the child to maturity. It is true some do but being realistic I can tell you most do not. Why should a woman have to give up her whole life,her wish to be a doctor perhaps, if he does not ,for one night of [what we hope was] pleasure?
posted on December 7, 2000 06:52:50 PMOddish, it seems to me that your dictionary is pretty much intact, and I understand completely the dilemma you are stating, to wit:
Because of the legal right of a woman to choose abortion, she can, by that decision choose to forego the disruption to her life which may be caused by a child. If she (her decision) makes such a choice, the father of the child is also 'let off the hook' for longterm responsibility for the child. And that choice (which also affects his life) is solely her's, in the final analysis. And she can make that choice based on reasons which are meaningful only to her.
But if the mother chooses to have the child and raise it herself (again, her decision), the father is potentially 'on the hook' for support for 18 years. He cannot 'choose' not to provide that support. He cannot 'opt out.' If the child is placed for adoption, he also has the opportunity to avoid that responsibility. But his opportunity for "choice" is quite limited, by comparison to the mother's.
Okay, a few legal points here...
1) if the child is placed for adoption, the father must also agree to legally terminate his parental rights (and obligation to support). A "choice." And a choice which may be rescinded, in most states, up to one year following the placement for adoption.
2) if the mother keeps the child, the father is not automatically required (legally) to support the child. In fact, it is rare that this occurs, since it requires a legal proceeding and a court order to "force" support (if not willingly given), and the subsequent record of support enforcement is abyssmal. Failure of the father to pay court-ordered child support is probably one of the most common issues facing single mothers today. Yes, some cases are made very public, and capture the attention of the new media, but those very few "deadbeat father caught and must pay up" cases which we hear about are truly just a tiny drop in the bucket compared to the numbers of delinquencies.
3) Child support is normally set at a percentage of the father's (I'll use the father here, although there are certainly reversed roles, as mentioned) income at the time of the support hearing. It is not unusual for that order to be indexed at 20-25% of the father's after-tax monthly income. And while there are exceptions, most child support payments, once set, do not change to reflect a change in the father's rising (or falling) income. To do so requires a fairly sophistocated attorney as well as a fairly sophistocated family law process within the state/county where the court proceeding is processed...and this is rare. So, the father works at McDonald's and he's making $400 per month after taxes, and he might be ordered to pay $100 per month for child support for 18 years. And it doesn't matter if the father goes on to become a brilliant (and expensive) brain surgeon making $400,000 per month...that child support will likely remain set at $100 per month...forever. Now, in such cases, of course, the father has a "choice"--to increase that support or not. His "choice"...which he might reasonably make based on his own assessment of the moral issues and obligations involved.
So, I would suggest that, even though the father has no "choice" truly available to him in the abortion decision, he also has certain "choices" still available to him (both within and outside the law), as his own conscience allows.
And I would further suggest that fathers have been making (and had available to them) that same set of choices well before the array of legal or illegal choices available to potential mothers included the opportunity for a safe abortion.
posted on December 7, 2000 07:13:20 PM
stusi, I've been reading this discussion and thinking over everyone's comments and opinions. Very thought provoking, it will take me a while to absorb all the different viewpoints.
thank you to each person who shared I am learning a lot from each person's opinion. And stusi, thank you for a interesting thread and good discussion.
