posted on September 12, 2001 06:23:49 AM
I don't normally get involved in political discussions. I am not shocked or surprised at the celebrations overseas. After all war is what all those people have lived for a lifetime and have probably become immune to humanitarian feelings.
I was however very upset to hear from a friend in NJ (I won't name the town) who drove through to find people clapping,dancing obviously celebrating on American soil (dressed in Eastern clothing). He didn't stop but drove on... That is upsetting to me. I wasn't born here, but I am a citizen, I vote, I fly the flag, and would never do anything but support this country because it has given me and my family what we couldn't get anywhere else.
Yes, it made me angry and I think they should be deported...to me celebrating anyone's death should be reason enough.
Jay
posted on September 12, 2001 06:49:08 AM
Look folks, the celebrating by Palestinians, and "finding" those responsible are meaningless.
What some posters do not understand is just how this attack will effect us all and will for the next several generations to come unless we annihilate the populations that support,create, and harbor these radicals.
Israel has been on a terrorist war footing for 5 decades. Its economy without foreign aid is non-existent. The security measures are police state. Is that how you and your children, and grandchildren want to live ?
Catching Bin Laden and executing him and his followers will be an empty victory. There are thousands to take their place, and will. Executing or "bringing to justice" suicide bombers has no effect on those waiting in the wings, except perhaps to steel their resolve to be a martyr and go to paradise.
This zealot system has been used in Islam for centuries.
We have a choice between living under seige for decades to come, or destroying the population centers that are activly and passivly producing and aiding these suicidal murderers.
The next large attack on the West will be nuclear or biological. It is time to bring Middle East Islam to its knees and cut its head off.
posted on September 12, 2001 09:08:58 AM
It is very different than what the terrorists did. There are no "innocents" in these countries.
They are either activly or passivly supporting these terrorists, and it is more than one country.
Their religion is teaching their children to be suicidal killers, their money goes to support these terrorists.
In a war, innocent people die. Better their innocent people than ours.
However, if you want to volunteer to take the place of one of those people in the WTC or Pentagon as a matter of your "principles", I'm sure any one of the dead will trade places with you.
posted on September 12, 2001 12:22:39 PM
The sad part in viwing the photo is to see that the celebration is being had by children. This eludes to the fact that the anti-American sediment is being carried forward to the next generation of Palastinians...
The lady who cuts my hair at the local Great Clips is Palastinian and originally from the region. I have hearted conversation with her about her country (region), culture and political perspectives while she cuts my hair. She is a nice lady and I understand her viewpoints regarding the struggles the Palastinian people face. They are striking similar in nauture to the plights that many faces face. In return, she also understands that the hatred that some of her people have for us is misdirected. It is the result of many years of political propaganda, supression and suffering. Something that no human being, regardless of race or creed, should have to endure. Somehow a universal message of understanding and compassion needs to be spread instead of the worlwide hatred.
Hopefully the day will come that we all somehow manage to find a way to peacefully coexist. Until such time it is nice for me to know that I have the friendship of a person who is supposed to generally to be regarded as an advasary.
posted on September 12, 2001 12:33:51 PM
>>There are no "innocents" in these countries.
They are either activly or passivly supporting these terrorists, and it is more than one country. <<
I'm sorry that people will believe these kinds of statements.
I am not opposed to a response to this tragedy and senseless attack.
I note that it is the same broad brush judgment of Americans that supports terrorism. To believe that there is no individuality in another culture allows for mass murder to take place, no matter what the source.
Finally, my argument is practical, not principle-based. Making a crater out of another country, and killing many innocents will only fuel more attacks. It's not just wrong, it simply will not help.
Let's be a little more focused in our aggression than mass murder in retaliation.
posted on September 12, 2001 01:14:50 PM
gr8ful2bhere - That support by "innocents" is exactly what is going on. These were not just "individuals" that carried out these attacks. These terrorists are the unofficial foreign policy arm of several Islamic countries and are supported and celebrated by the "innocent" people in these countries.
And for those of you who are "shocked" by seeing the children celebrating in the streets, you should see what goes on in their schools on a daily basis. Bin Laden also operates some of these "schools" for children in Peshwar Pakistan, where he also communicates worldwide with his cohorts and supporters through fax/modem.
If the truth ever gets out about the support terrorists get from these countries, Bush will be eating his words, because he won't bomb Pakistan or Iran, or the West Bank.
posted on September 12, 2001 01:24:46 PM
Palestinians celebrate quite often,
Till now it was only their attacks on Jewsih people,
As many on this forum, I'm not "native"
To America, but what happened in NYC shocked me and all people and my family in Europe,
Many of my friends were injured or died
In NYC, and it's simply unbelieveble
That something like that could happened,
But I would like to post bit more info on
Extreme moslims and Palestiniens,
I'm Jewish and I get emails
From jewish groups so I'll try to remember some of the info I got
(lost most of it in my last hard drive crash)
YISGOOD had it right,
Small kids , 5 - 7 years old are getting automatic guns, sometimes bigger then they are, and Jihad movement has it's own TV show
For kids, they have Mickey mouse telling them about the Holly war and then they film the kids getting angry, one 4 years old girl
Was screaming that she wont be satisfied
Until she can see blood flowing down
The walls of Jerusalem and was asking the other kids to join her in her outrage.
(how can a 4 year old be so angry???!)
Some muslims belive that the more jewish people
You kill the closer you get to Allah
(G-D) so these are not exactly sane people.
Till know there was a saying in Israel:
"The war between palestine and israel
Will not end till they will start loving their childern more then they hate jews"
Now I think it will be more like:
The war will not end till all the bad and crazy will be stopped so they cannt cause
anymore violence and bloody killings,
Whether it's on the walls of Jerusalem
Or the Towers in NYC or anywhere in the world.
This is worst then Pearl Harbor,
From my history this is more like small
Holocaust against all races.
posted on September 12, 2001 01:50:11 PM
twenty-some years ago i went with a friend to see a movie in westwood. it was a documentary on the klan - present day. if i recall correctly, most of it was filmed in orange county. i don't remember most of it now, but still all-too vividly i remember a segment shot in the modest living room of a family - mother, father, and several cute small children. the children were perhaps 4, 5, 6. they were filled with hatred, saying very similar things, about african americans. it was chilling, horrifying. and this had been shot the same year i was watching it! i was literally nauseated.
it could also be said that war and atrocities will not stop until people love more than they hate.
posted on September 12, 2001 02:49:09 PM
I'm not sure how many of the angrier notes here are serious, versus trolling... In any case, Israel, the US, and our allies will never support genocide.
posted on September 12, 2001 03:58:59 PM
I haven't seen anyone advocate genocide on this board, unless you think Islamic fundementalists are are a race. "Geno" is from the Greek "genos" meaning race, and cide means to kill.
But if we wish to redefine genocide to what I am advocating, then so be it, it is never the less what must be done to protect our country.
We tried extracting the "bad" guys in Africa, and our servicemen were ambushed, killed, and their corpses dragged through the streets in celebration by some of those "innocent" people you all seem to care so much about.
Too many posters think dead American servicemmen is the tack we must take to be "humane" and "rational".
It is time you start thinking about our servicemen's lives when you insist we 'go in and get the bad guys' and not harm anyone else who may have even some degree of innocence.
posted on September 12, 2001 06:47:48 PM
In a perfect world we would not have to worry about terrorists, but come on man it's time to wake up and smell the coffee. This war is not necesarilly against Bin Laden alone and whomever contributed and/or aided the persons involved in this horible act against us. It is and should be against terrorism in general, all over the planet. This includes the IRA, the PLO, The Taliban Gov't. and any other governments that sanction, aid and allow terrorists to operate terrorist bases from their countries. As far as collateral damage is concerned, I think that it is acceptable because these governments should not be aiding these terrorists in the first place. If and when we the USA do strike back then collateral damage will be kept to a minimum and any innocents will not be targeted.
All terrorists all over the planet need to realize that their number is up. We the peace loving peoples of the world will not be pushed around anymore.
If you consider this way of thinking strange then so-be-it.
posted on September 12, 2001 10:53:18 PM
Thanks kittykittykitty. I don't know how I missed your post. I was going to stay away completely until I found something today I wasn't even looking for.
In one post it was pointed out that "they" teach their children to hate and yet today I hear about Arab Americans and Arab Canadians and their Mosques being attacked. HERE! In North America! By OUR children.
Anyway, for some reason several months ago I saved an article. Perhaps it was a higher power the compelled me to do this. I came across it today purely by accident.
I believe if you are going to hate you should understand who it is you are hating.
We might even understand ourselves a little better.
~~~~
October 22, 2000
Permanent peace still out of reach
By ERIC MARGOLIS -- Toronto Sun
What we have seen in the West Bank and Gaza during the last three weeks was a giant prison riot by Palestinians. Of the more than 100 people who died and the 3,000 who were wounded, 95% were Arabs.
In North America, the pro-Israel media poured venom on Palestinians, even claiming that stone-throwing teenagers on the
occupied West Bank were threatening Israel's very existence. Some media cheerleaders of Israel's right wing even called on the United States to go to war against "these animals." American politicians vied to condemn Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat.
Across the Muslim world, ferocious anti-Israel and anti-Jewish hatred erupted with terrifying, unprecedented intensity. From Morocco to Indonesia, pictures of a terrified 12-year-old Arab boy, huddling beside his father, slowly being shot to death by Israeli troops became for Muslims as much an icon of suffering as the famous, heartbreaking picture of a 10-year-old Jewish boy, hands raised over his head, being marched out of the Warsaw Ghetto by Nazi SS troops.
Yet after this latest orgy of hate and violence, nothing really has changed. Israelis and Palestinians remain stuck together, like two scorpions in a bottle. Israel still faces the same three choices: a peace agreement that a majority of Palestinians will find minimally acceptable; to keep shooting Palestinian rioters, which severely damages Israel's standing worldwide and encourages anti-Semitism; or ethnic cleansing of Arabs from Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza.
ISRAELI CONCESSIONS
Israel insists it made huge concessions at Camp David II, and says a permanent peace deal was within reach, but collapsed because Yasser Arafat refused to give up claims to the Old City of Jerusalem, which Israel conquered in 1967 and annexed. But the Old City was not the only make-or-break issue.
More important, and largely ignored by the media, was the question of Palestinians' right of return. During Israel's creation in 1948, and in the 1967 war in which Israel seized the West Bank, 1.1 million Palestinians, plus hundreds of thousands of Syrian refugees from Golan, were driven from their homes and land. Fifty-two years later, the Palestinian refugee diaspora, concentrated in Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, the West Bank, and Gaza, has grown to 5-6 million, the world's largest refugee population. According to UN figures, one in four of the globe's refugees is Palestinian. They have subsisted in squalid camps as stateless outcasts for half a century.
A quarter of the one million Palestinians who live in Israel proper are internal refugees. No Palestinians have ever been compensated for loss of property or homeland, estimated in U.S. dollars at $180 billion. Neither have Sephardic Jews from the Mideast who lost their property when they moved to Israel.
UN Resolution 194, of 1948, affirms the right of all Palestinians to either return to their lost homes or to elect compensation. The UN has reaffirmed this resolution more than 100 times. Numerous human rights conventions have codified the legal right of expelled civilian populations to return home.
Israel rejects these UN resolutions by asserting Palestinians were not driven by Israeli forces from their homes, but voluntarily abandoned them. Though prominent Israeli historians have amply debunked such claims, this 52-year old canard forms the legal basis for denying Palestinians any right of return. "Abandoned" Palestinian property was expropriated and given or sold to Jews. Israeli governments have steadfastly maintained Israel has no moral or monetary responsibility for Palestinian refugees and owes them nothing. Israel rejects charges it is violating the 1949 Geneva Convention by shooting civilian demonstrators because it is "administering" rather than "occupying" the West Bank.
There is no room in Israel, insist Israelis, for Arab refugees, though room was found for one million Russians, not all of them Jews, and Falasha Ethiopians. If Arabs are allowed to return in any number, they will destroy Israel, or swamp it demographically, Zionists warn.
PALESTINIAN COMPENSATION
At the failed Camp David talks, Israel's PM Ehud Barak reportedly agreed to a token return of up to 100,000 Palestinian refugees, labeled as "family reunification." President Clinton generously proposed American taxpayers would pay Palestinians U.S.$40 billion or more in compensation for land expropriated by Israel.
Aside from these two sops, only a very limited number of Palestinian refugees - subject to Israeli American approval - would be allowed to settle in the proposed new Palestinian mini-state. In other words, even after a peace agreement, 2-3 million Palestinians would remain stateless and homeless.
Even if Yasser Arafat is eventually strong-armed into a deal with Israel and America, most of his people want no part of an agreement that leaves them either penned up in an Israeli- dominated mini-state - little better than a group of reservations akin to apartheid South Africa's old bantustans - or left like human garbage in refugee camps, at the mercy of their unloving Arab "brothers." That grim prospect, even more than Jerusalem, was the true cause of the latest Palestinian explosion.
Muslims, Christians and Jews will eventually find some way to time-share the Old City's disputed 200 square metres of holy places, as competing Christian sects have learned to do in Bethlehem. But there will be no lasting regional peace until millions of Palestinian refugees are somehow made whole and become convinced they have a future.
~~~~~
Ask. Who created Israel?
The U.S. has provided 94 BILLION dollars in aid to Israel.
The CIA funded bin Laden when he was fighting the USSR (The enemy de jour) invaders of Afghanistan.
The U.S. also funded Saddam and Iraq when Iran was the enemy.
And The U.S. trained Noriega.
I will be surprised if I see no celebrating in the U.S. when those responsible are found.
posted on September 12, 2001 11:40:12 PMA_S, I lived in Israel in the 70's-80's. I was the sole survivor of a terrorist attack in which 40 people were killed. Civilians, or "innocents," you might call them.
You know nothing about the Palestinian situation and your post is sickening. The West Bank and Gaza strip were seized by Israel for defense purposes after a concerted attack by numerous Arab nations. At that time, several thousand people were displaced from what was a war zone. That number, more accurately the descendants of those displaced persons, now number over one million.
Despite the obvious security risk, Israel has given back much of the land that was seized. And yet terrorist attacks upon civilian targets continue on a daily basis. It is obvious the PLO does not want land or peace.
The issue here is not American school kids throwing rocks through Moslem shopkeepers' windows. The issue is the now-apparent, very real threat of terrorism on American soil. America will have to make some very difficult decisions. Your finger-pointing and criticism will only have a demoralizing effect. I can guarantee you, though, that terrorism will not go away; and next time it will be much worse.
posted on September 13, 2001 02:00:38 PM
I don't know that I was pointing fingers at anyone. I was listing things I have come across. Things that made me think. Know thy enemy. Know why.
Over the last three days I have heard over and over again how we should level an entire region of the earth; most of the Middle East States, parts of Africa and parts of Asia. Many of those people calling for blood would like to go farther down than level and leave only craters. Take EVERYONE out, people are saying. Make them pay 100 for every 1 we lost. And, I ask, who are "they"?
Most of the people, and make no mistake these are real people, we would destroy are horrified by what has happened. Those responsible are not their people.
I look back in history and see what Americans did to fellow Americans of Japanese descent. I see sorrow for all those, the innocents, who parished in the bombs that were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki from those who have regrets. I also remember that the Japanese made the Kamakazi Pilot famous. Still, when Pearl Harbor happened we knew who to hit back.
Now I hear people talk about the children of others as I watch with horror how the children of ours treat fellow Americans based on a perception.
I am sorry for your terrible experience. I can't imagine the horror you went through. I will admit I do not know as much as I probably should but I would forward that I know a bit more "nothing" than do many who have been asking "why" and calling for the deaths of those we don't even know are guilty. That part of the world's history goes far back before 1970. This is not MY history. I am not making this up as I type (and I am not saying anyone else is either) If you would like to know more I would suggest:
If you have something you think I should read then I would like to know. Please enlighten me to why my post was sickening. In the meantime I will apologize for any offence I might have caused. It was not my intention.
If nothing else it doesn't hurt to know world history. One side of the story is not enough.
If you are going to call for the extermination of an entire country, race or group of people I think you should know why you are doing it.
posted on September 13, 2001 04:23:37 PM
Hello Everyone,
We realize this is a very emotional time for all of us and we ask that you post with sensitivity.
I have deleted a few posts that could have offended some groups of people that are members of AW and are innocent of any wrong doing. Be careful with that broad brush.
posted on September 13, 2001 04:25:44 PM
The Fundementalist Islamic infrastructure does not want peace, unless it is only for a respite period until they develope the means to destroy Israel and you can include America as a target for this destruction now.
Israel is the only democratic beacon in the whole region. The US supports Israel for this reason.
As far as killing innocent people when we move to secure our nation, that is a fact of war.
I do not want retribution, or revenge. I could care less how or when Bin Laden or any of the other FTOs (Foreign Terrorist Organization) that freely operate and are supported by the Fundementalist Islamic Ifrastructure are caught and killed. I only want my nation secure from more of these acts and by any means necessary.
Too few posters realize exactly what is at stake here. If we are hit with a nuclear or bio weapon by terrorists and even temporarily incapacitated, we have North Korea and China to worry about. North Korea will move against the South and China will move on Taiwan if we get hit bad.
It was just reported that 4 people on the FBI list were caught trying to board a plane in NY. But I don't want them caught getting on planes in NY, I want them and their irrefutable Islamic Fendementalist support system annihilated.
Remember this also, we have to stop ALL terrorist attempts, the terrorist only have to be effective at a few attempts.
posted on September 13, 2001 08:21:02 PM
I mentioned the Canadian Connection earlier and wondered if we were willing to level that country that many think has been a safe harbor for terrorists. I would hope that most of you thought the idea, even I, was crazy. You know that most Canadians do not condone what has happened. Why then are we so willing to condemn 1.2 billion people for the acts of a few? That is 5 times the population of the United States.
Read the editorial and the letters.
http://www.canoe.ca/WinnipegSun/editorial.html
I have had on my refrigerator for years this that many might already have seen:
"In Germany first they came for the communists and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist.
Then they came for the Jews and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for the trade unionists and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionists.
Then they came for the Catholics and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me - and by that time no one was left to speak up."
posted on September 13, 2001 08:47:29 PM
another_smith - Your examples and blathering have nothing even remotely related to leveling the Islamic Fundementalist infrastructure terorist system that is in several countries, which our UN rep just stated tonight on CNN is also in the US.
One of the basic tenents of this fundementalist organization is "death to America".
This Islamic fundementalist system IS a nazi like organization and belief system. Comparing the eradication of this Islamic system to what the nazi's did is not only naive, but sick.
Being a member of Islamic fundementalist groups which actively and passively supports its terrorists is enough guilt to cause their just extermination.
Edited to add- My advocating this annihilation has nothing to do with revenge or retribution, or hatred. I could care less how Bin Laden is brought to justice or killed. What I am advocating is the security of our country, and the only way to do it is the annihilation of these groups which will include several countries and some large populations.
It would be wonderful if the enemy were all at least 21 years old and male and wore a uniform. They are not. They are men young and old, women young and old, and yes, children being raised up to be the next suicide bomber and shoot guns to "kill Americans".
Where is your sanguine sympathy for the American "innocent" victims? Where will your sympathy be for the next innocent American victims ? And there will be more until and unless we exterminate ALL the terrorists and their Islamic fundementalist supporters.
posted on September 14, 2001 12:35:02 AMA_S, the quotes you provided are biased and untrue. They are pure revisionism.
I have met many Palestinians and found them to be good-natured and friendly, like most people. I do not equate the PLO with the Palestinian people.
The PLO is pure evil. America made a terrible mistake by bestowing political respectability on that organization, instead of treating them as terrorists. Now we are paying the price for our ignorance.
The terrorist movement is huge. It exists in many nations, supported by leaders who outwardly express sympathy, while funding and planning their next cowardly attack.
Make no mistake, we were hurt badly by the attack on New York. The response will be ugly, but necessary. Or we can just ignore the problem and hope it doesn't happen again.
posted on September 14, 2001 01:45:04 AM
I'm one of the reported 90% of Americans who favors hitting back and hitting hard. While I understand the attitude of those of you advocating a peaceful solution, I have to tell you I think you're being incredibly naive. There is no negotiating with these people, there is no "peaceful solution." That's been tried,and it failed. Utterly. These people are insane. They're single-minded fanatics who's only purpose in life is the eradication of "The Great Satan." They will, as you've seen, try to accomplish this end by any means available to them. To them it's a holy war, and they won't stop until they're either totally victorious, or utterly defeated. Allah, in their minds, would have it no other way. The fact that I am an atheist makes such acts committed in the name of someone's god all the more repugnant to me. I've riled up a few people on Usenet with my position on this matter, and I'll probably rile up a few here, but so be it. I want to see someone pay for this. Let's just make sure it's the right "someone." When we find out who is responsible, and we will, I say give them what they gave us, only a thousand times worse. Until these fanatics are wiped off the face of the earth, not only the US, but the entire Western world will never be safe. That is a simple fact, and all the good intentions and idealistic naivete' in the world won't change it. Tuesday morning was the proverbial last straw. These madmen are a disgrace to the millions of Muslims who would never dream of committing such an act, and they're a disgrace to humanity. They deserve no mercy.
posted on September 14, 2001 02:10:07 AM
I know perfectly well taht I will probably lose my posting priviledges over this, but I just have to say this: you people make me sick!!!
Comments like "there are no innocents in these countries" make me gag.
You are putting yourself on one step withe the people who did this.
I can understand the anger and hurt. I feel it, too.
People araound the world are reaching out their hands to the peaceful, honorable americans that preach freedom and tolerance and so many other things to others all the time.
Reading this thread I am truly ashamed to be an american. This is not what we are about!
Killing children for revenge. Because there are no innocents!
posted on September 14, 2001 04:29:36 AM
The normal citizenry in countries only have the information their media gives it.
In the US we have the luxury of simply worrying about a liberal or conservative bias in our news.
Other countries are force fed news and information stating that entire countries are evil...a bias that goes beyond the radical or reactionary. Children grow up thinking that entire peoples are evil and out to kill them. They are taught that they will go to heaven if they lose their lives fighting and killing the evil enemies. In the case of the Palestinians, some of their anger is indeed justified, though their factionally terrorist actions are not.
I was watching an interview on one of the cable networks on Tuesday, with one of the Palestinian revelers. The man was telling the interviewer the usual spiel about how America's actions had brought this on themselves. When the interviewer told the man that there was probably around 50,000 people in the WTC at the time of the attacks, the man went into a silent shock. I think even he realized that this was too much.
To be honest, these terrorists that hit America were bloody stupid. Terrorists have to be careful about the death and destruction they cause...too much at once and they have killed whatever fanciful cause they may believe in, because they will be hunted down with a fervor.
Didn't they see how the Oklahoma City bombing polarized the country? And that with only 168 dead? What do they think that killing 20,000+ is going to do to American resolve?
posted on September 14, 2001 09:24:45 AM
When does a war descriminate between the "innocent" and the guilty? It certainly did not in WWll. Besides the truly innocent adults among the Axis powers were long since eliminated by their respective governments. Think that happens among the Palestinians today.
buyhigh
