posted on September 14, 2001 04:41:01 PM
Man, you people are angry! I am just beginning to calm down myself. So let me weigh in with my crazy opinions....
We need to positively identify the terrorists and target only them for attack.
UNFORTUNATELY, terrorists are, by nature, extreme cowards, no matter what their cause or beliefs. So they will be found hiding behind the skirts of the innocents, poking their heads out long enough to flip us the bird and taunt us, immediately popping back behind the skirt.
Sad to say, we HAVE to eliminate them both or nothing will ever be accomplished. After a few, the terrorists will realize using the "Human Shield" doesn't work and either they have to fight or give up, they will give up. We won't have to eliminate entire countries or populations, but some of the innocent will be killed. Like the Israeli policy of not negotiating with terrorists who hijack planes, the innocent are considered dead already. When was the last time you heard of them hijacking an Israeli plane? It doesn't do them any good, so should it be when they hide behind an innocent. It shouldn't work.
Now about the coming war....
The United States has made war too clean and too smart. We use smart bombs that are programmed to only hit the targets we want them to. Military Installations, Supply bunkers, etc. This allows countries to act DUMB, inciting war at every opportunity because the average person won't be attacked and will continue to support the Gov't in power.
MAKE WAR HORRIBLE!!! MAKE WAR DEVASTATING!!! Bombs should be dumb so people will smarten up. You have to drop alot of bombs to hit a single target and the one's that go astray makes the populace sort look up a say "you know, maybe this isn't such a good idea". Then they get smarter.
[ edited by mark090 on Sep 14, 2001 04:53 PM ]
posted on September 14, 2001 05:28:25 PM
The reason Israel hasn't had a plane hijacked is because it takes a minimum of several hours to get on an Israeli plane, each passenger is interviewed for at least 45 minutes and some as long as 2 hours. The pilots are armed too.
Not negotiating is meaningless to someone that will fly the plane into a building.
These security measures have also bankrupted the economy of Israel. They exist by foreign aid.
Unless and until we destroy the population centers that produce and support these terrorist networks, our economy is flushed, our security is hour to hour, day to day. The Senate passed today a law that allows warrantless wire tapping of electronic communication of Americans. It will only get worse.
We now have to protect against 100% of any and all terrorist contingencies.
The terrorists only have to be successful a few times, and will always be looking for a weak spot.
We have to ALWAYS bat 1000 now, the terrorists need only get a few hits a year.
I do not advocate the annihilation of these population centers out of hate or revenge. Hate and revenge gain America or me nothing.
Unless you want to live in a police state like Israel with a bankrupt economy, and still getting bombed, with the real possibility of being poisoned or nuked, for the rest of your life, annihilation is the only way we can go.
posted on September 14, 2001 09:49:13 PM
Reamond, Israel is not a police state and its economy is not bankrupt. Nor does it exist solely on foreign aid.
Israel is a democracy. There are many different beliefs represented and tolerated. There is a large movement known as "Peace Now" composed mostly of young people who didn't live through the decades of war. That movement isn't at odds with the government. Hawks and doves are elected, as in this country.
To a casual observer, Israel might look like a police state. Both men and women are required to do military service. That's why it is not at all unusual to see people walking around with M-16s, Uzis and other firearms. I have lived there, and I can tell you no one gives it a second thought.
The main drain on the Israeli economy is not terrorism, but the huge influx of immigrants, mainly from Russia, other Eastern Eurpean and African nations. Those people often arrive penniless and unable to speak the language. Many immigrants are aged and infirm. The cost of integrating them into Israeli society is great.
Israel does receive much private aid, and also aid from the U.S. government. That is not free aid. Israel is the only friendly nation in the Middle East, and does a lot of spying and intelligence work for the U.S. Israel can't do it all, though. We're talking about a country roughly 1/3 the size of California.
The cost of the coming conflict will be great for Americans. Until now, we have ignored the rest of the world and enjoyed our riches. In World War II, we sat idly by while Hitler butchered Europe. Perhaps that is the reason we were unprepared for Pearl Harbor. Now Pearl Harbor has happened again. We must do whatever it takes to win the war, and that may include tightening our belts. I have two small children, and I wouldn't want to see them grow up in fear of the world's Bin Ladens. It isn't an economic consideration.
posted on September 15, 2001 08:59:15 AM
I understand what Reamond is saying regarding counter-terrorism. It's debatable what kind of retaliation would be most effective. Deploying weapons of mass destruction in Afghanistan may or may not be the best solution to combat terrorism. As news sources have reported, the terrorist network exists below the surface in tens of nations. It's doubtful that we can intimidate terrorists in Syria by bombing Kabul.
Air attacks are the safest method for the U.S., but also the least effective against individuals. We might end up bombing Afghanistan for weeks while Bin Laden holes up in Libya or some other Middle Eastern country. The U.S. probably won't conduct simultaneous air campaigns against Afghanistan, Pakistan, Libya, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, etc. Nuking the entire Middle East might end terrorism, but it isn't a practical solution.
In my opinion, the best approach would be covert attacks against individuals based on intelligence. Until now, U.S. policy has been not to assasinate leaders. So our strategy is to bomb areas where we think leaders are located. That didn't work during the Gulf War. Bin Laden isn't stupid, and he won't be sitting in the Afghani capital building waiting for our smart bombs. We have to be ready to get our hands dirty by sending in special ops and targeting the leaders of the Islamic Jihad movement wherever they are located.
posted on September 15, 2001 09:48:59 AM
>>>It's doubtful that we can intimidate terrorists in Syria by bombing Kabul.<<<
Bombing Kabul will intimidate the Syrian government from harboring terrorists.
Governments and countries will be forced to choose sides. The president of Pakistan has sided with the U.S. Sadam has issued a "warning" that Iraq will line up against the U.S.
So be it. Better for the U.S. to respond now from a position of strength and international influence, instead of waiting until our country and ecomony is crippled.
posted on September 15, 2001 11:17:27 AM"Bombing Kabul will intimidate the Syrian government from harboring terrorists."
It may or it may not. One thing you can be sure of, though, is that EVERY nation will disavow themselves from terrorism. Every nation will deny culpability and pledge support. Witness Arafat's condemnation of the attacks, while his people celebrate and burn the American flag.
Supporters of terrorism won't simply line up to be bombed by the U.S. We will have to look below the surface and below the words and promises of politicians.
I don't know what President Bush and NATO have in mind, but I doubt they have the means or the resolve to completely eradicate terrorism.
posted on September 15, 2001 12:56:49 PM
Any way you look at it we are in for one heck of a hard uphill battle. Afghanistan has to be one of the toughest places to fight a war, their people are resiliant and a hard peolple to beat. The Russians couldn't beat them, the British tried and failed. In one of the Brits most famous retreats they had a regiment of 5000 men retreating from Kabul and on the way out they lost all 5000 and not all were lost from the Afghanistan military in fact most were lost from civilian attacks with nothing more that knives and machetes. So I guess you could say that collateral damage in such battles is nonexistant.
I only hope that there are no plans to capture Bin Laden but instead to just kill him and as many of his followers as well. If we were to capture him and bring him to the US to stand trial we would just be setting ouselves up for another long drawn out hostage crisis. His follwers would capture another embassy and hold them in exchange for Bin Laden. Of course we would not give in to their demands.
posted on September 15, 2001 01:25:33 PM
twinsoft- Israel is in a continious police/high alert state. Sure they think it is "normal" there to see a fully armed soldier, an armoured personel carrier, and tanks, on nearly every well traveled corner, it has been that way for 40 years. It is also normal for bombs to explode at the markets and resturants. It is normal to carry a govt issued ID card, it is normal to have military check points. You seem to be saying we'll get used to it in time too, but who wants to live like that ?
A former government official of Israel has stated that the decades of terrorist war footing have bankrupted the Israeli economy, and that without aid from the US, there would be no economy in Israel. This statement was made to encourage Israel to become less dependent on aid, but they knew the security budget would not allow for an aid free independent economy
All of the capital for things like internal security on the scale of Israel, we spend on new software companies, plants and office buildings. Instead of uniformed soldiers guarding the streets, they are working in factories and office buildings here. The airlines in the US just asked for and received a $14 billion package from the Federal govt, and it is only to float guarantees for the industry for 90 days to prevent massive bankruptcies.
Thus far the airline industry is the first to be turned from a net tax payer to a drain on the budget.
We haven't even paid the govt debt from the cold war yet.
Every security measure and every dollar for military spending, is a drain on capital and a drain on productivity.
posted on September 15, 2001 02:47:41 PMI think the "true colors" of Islam are apparent in these comments from around the world.....where the major leaders of Islam are basically blaming the US because of her support for Israel, and/or then condemning Israel and comparing the Jewish people to the Trade Center Terrorists!!! No, I think the sorrow expressed by Islam is crocodile tears!
****************
REPORTED IN THE BBC NEWS
During Friday prayers Muslim clerics in the Arab world have strongly condemned Tuesday's attacks in America.{Or Did They Really??}
The BBC's Matt Frei in Jerusalem
"The authorities here are doing their best to feel America's pain"
It's not courage in any way to kill an innocent person, or to kill thousands of people, including men and women and children
Sheik Mohammed Sayed Tantawi
Syria's most senior Islamic leader described the attacks on America as a terrorist act, as ignoble as what he called the state terrorism practiced by Israel.
Hundreds of Palestinians also rallied in the West Bank city of Ramallah to show support for Americans killed in the attacks, as well as condemn Israeli killing of Palestinians in Jenin.
And in Iran, Tehran's main football stadium observed an unprecedented minute's silence in sympathy with the victims.
'State terrorism
Iran's Ayatollah Imami Kashani spoke of a catastrophic act of terrorism which could only be condemned by all Muslims, adding the whole world should mobilize against terrorism.
There were many expressions of sympathy throughout the Arab world
But if its roots were really to be tackled, terrorism and its practitioners would have to be defined, he said, pointing to Israel and calling it a "terrorist state which was killing children".
America's support and its arrogant policies around the world might help to explain the brutalism of the hijackers, he added.
On Thursday night, people who tried to stage a commemorative vigil in central Tehran, in spite of the ban on public gatherings, were broken up by police and Islamic volunteers.
'Barbaric acts'
The head of al-Azhar in Cairo, one of Sunni Islam's highest religious authority, said attacking innocent people was not courageous, but stupid and would be punished on Judgement Day.
Christianity, America, or the Christian world were not accused because a Christian masterminded [Oklahoma]
Gaza City imam
"It's not courage in any way to kill an innocent person, or to kill thousands of people, including men and women and children," said Sheik Mohammed Sayed Tantawi.
In Lebanon the spiritual leader of the Shia guerrilla group, Hezbollah, called the attacks "barbaric acts".
He added even though Muslims were opposed to the American Government because of its support for Israel, the American people should not be blamed.
No mention
One imam in the Nuseirat refugee camp outside Gaza City said Islam should not be tarred by association, even if chief suspect Osama Bin Laden was eventually tied to the attack.
The imam pointed to the lessons of the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing, in which he said "Christianity, America, or the Christian world were not accused because a Christian masterminded it."
In Iraq, a nationally televised sermon from Baghdad's al-Azam mosque urged that no tears be shed for "tyrants whose hands are stained with the blood of our people"(Meaning the USA)!!!!.
And at the al-Ansar mosque in the West Bank town of Hebron, where supporters of the militant Islamic movement Hamas were heavily represented among worshippers, the sermon did not mention the US attacks.
***************
So personally, I don't basically trust the Moslems, I believe they are making excuses, double talking, and as I said above, it is obvious from their heathen Koran that they see the killing of unbelievers to be honored by Allah! Sorry...that's the way I see it
Their Koran says: "Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate."
posted on September 15, 2001 03:01:55 PM
Yellowstone, you said,
Any way you look at it we are in for one heck of a hard uphill battle. Afghanistan has to be one of the toughest places to fight a war, their people are resiliant and a hard peolple to beat. The Russians couldn't beat them, the British tried and failed.
The only reason why the Russians failed was because the US provided funding and training to that same bin Laden that is now terrorizing our own nation. We better change our foreign policy, and change it QUICKLY.
posted on September 15, 2001 05:37:09 PM
Annuta, I agree wholeheartedly that the US needs to change it's foreign policy quickly. For too long we have had too much of a liberal viewpoint when it comes to foreign policy and it is time to quit supporting governments that will accept our help and then turn around and perpetrate acts of terrorism against our citizens at home and abroad.
posted on September 15, 2001 06:50:49 PMtwinsoft- Israel is in a continious police/high alert state. Sure they think it is "normal" there to see a fully armed soldier, an armoured personel carrier, and tanks, on nearly every well traveled corner, it has been that way for 40 years. It is also normal for bombs to explode at the markets and resturants. It is normal to carry a govt issued ID card, it is normal to have military check points. You seem to be saying we'll get used to it in time too, but who wants to live like that ?
Reamond, Drop the rhetoric and stick to facts. You are making this up out of whole cloth and putting words into my mouth. Enough already. Israel is not a police state and there are not tanks on every corner.
No one is disputing that the war on terrorism will drain our economy. If you think that's cause to nuke the entire Middle East, that's your business. I don't believe that air strikes will be effective, nor will declaring war on a dozen nations. The U.S. needs to change its policy and terminate (with extreme prejudice) the leaders of the Islamic Jihad. That will require covert ops in many different countries. It's not the kind of war that plays out on CNN. And this is not a situation that can be solved overnight.
[B]Wajdi, a 14 year old:
"When I become a Shahid [Martyr], give out cake"[/B]
Palestinian Children Yearning Martyrdom, Encouraged by Parents
Written by: Itamar Marcus, Director
Introduction:
'When I become a Martyr, give out Kannafa' [sweet cake]. These are the words that 14-year-old Wajdi Al-Hattab often said to his friends in the days prior to his death in the riots, as reported in the official Palestinian Authority daily paper. The paper went on to report his 9th grade friends' reaction to his death: "they swore they would carry on, down the road of shahada [Martyrdom for Allah]." [Al Hayat Al Jadida, 9 November 2000] A 12 year old boy who died in the fighting named Karam, so yearned for his own Martyrdom, that he wrote his own "death announcements" on the walls of his own home. [ibid, November 30, 2000]
************
Is it any wonder so much killing occurs in the Middle East, as the Palestinians brain wash their own children into become suicide bombers!
Dennis Ross, who served until last year as the American mediator in the Middle East, blamed official Arab media incitement for the wave of terrorism. Some samples of this incitement:
Excerpts from the Friday sermon delivered by the PA-appointed "Mufti of Jerusalem and Palestine" Sheikh Ekrima Sabri at the Al-Aqsa Mosque on the Temple Mount on July 11, 1997, broadcast over Voice of Palestine radio:
"Oh Allah, destroy America, for she is ruled by Zionist Jews... Allah will paint the White House black! ... The Muslims say to Britain, to France and to all the infidel nations that Jerusalem is Arab. We shall not respect anyone else's wishes regarding her. The only relevant party is the Islamic nation, which will not allow infidel nations to interfere... Allah shall take revenge on behalf of his prophet against the colonialist settlers who are sons of monkeys and pigs..."
Palestinian Media Watch ([email protected]) reports that Arafat's denunciation of the attacks [Arutz-7 ed. note: he said that he is "shocked," but stopped short of actually condemning the attack] is in direct contradiction to the atmosphere of hatred he has been promoting through his tightly controlled media. Tuesday's edition of the official PA paper Al Hayat Al Jadida wrote, "The suicide bombers of today are the noble successors of their noble predecessors... the Lebanese suicide bombers, who taught the US Marines a tough lesson in [Lebanon]... These suicide bombers are the salt of the earth, the engines of history...They are the most honorable among us..."
"Saher Habash, a member of the central committee of [Yasser Arafat's] Fatah, ... expressed his hope that the Arab and Islamic world will act against America and Israel... Habash demanded to strike and to threaten the American interests in the Arab world..." [Meeting with journalists in El Birah, Al-Quds, Aug. 30, 2001]
"[Maher Taher] a member of the political bureau of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine ... said, 'We say to the Arab nation: Hit American interests and threaten them. The United States is a fundamental enemy…' He asked the Arab countries to take a clear and strict position towards the US, which is the a fundamental enemy of the Palestinian people and the Arab Nation."[Al Hayat Al Jadida Aug. 28, 2001]
posted on September 15, 2001 08:24:04 PM
I hope I edited the right comment
twinsoft- How many tanks are deployed on any corner in the US ? So instead of a tank on "every" intersection, its only a few in Israel ? Rhetoric ? please .......
But seriously, everyone who asks why? needs to read the posts above and see what is said on that link.
[ edited by REAMOND on Sep 15, 2001 08:30 PM ]
[ edited by REAMOND on Sep 15, 2001 08:31 PM ]
[ edited by REAMOND on Sep 15, 2001 08:39 PM ]
posted on September 15, 2001 10:35:31 PMHow many tanks are deployed on any corner in the US ? So instead of a tank on "every" intersection, its only a few in Israel ?
No, there are NO tanks deployed on ANY street corner. Your comment of "police state" and tanks suggests that the Israeli government oppresses or controls its own populace through force. I don't understand where you get off suggesting Israel is a police state.
Yes, there is a visible military presence. You should remember that every 18-year old man and woman is required to perform military service. Many remain in the army past the obligatory term. (In addition, every Israeli man under the age of 50 does a month of reserve duty every year.) That is why it is not unusual to see armed soldiers in the street.
The same sight would dismay an American, because it would be assumed that the military is somehow at odds with the citizenry - that the military is oppressing the citizenry. In Israel, the military IS the citizenry.
The strategic position of Israel could not be repeated in the United States. Israel is a tiny country (a little bigger than the Bay Area) which could easily be overrun in a day. That could not happen to the United States. The situations are so dissimilar that to speculate on the economic results of terrorism as above makes no sense.
The goal of terrorism is not to promote a political end, but to demoralize and create terror. The U.S. made a terrible mistake by granting Arafat and the PLO political status. It has not lessened the hatred or acts of violence. If anything, it created a safe harbor for terrorism. In my opinion, Israel should should kick the Palestinians past the Golan Heights and the west bank of the Jordan River so that there are clear, defensible borders. Tell the U.N. to shove it. Until now the U.S. has prevented that, and left Israel twisting in the wind, because we hanker for Arab oil.
Israel is also to blame, because they depend on Palestinians working in cheap "day laborer" jobs. That is just plain stupid.
posted on September 16, 2001 08:03:10 AM
Just to throw another iron into the fire, I was emailed a report from a South American professor who has contacted CNN asking for an explanation - according to the professor, he compared the CNN coverage of the Palestinian 'celebration' and it is the exact same footage as their 'celebration' in 1991 over the invasion of Kuwait. IF this is true, I am greatly disappointed in our media to allow us to think for ourselves and I would say that they are partially to blame for some of the hate killings that have arisen in this country as an aftermath of the bombing.
While as a rational adult, I realize that more innocent lives will be lost because of this tragedy and that, unfortunately, action must be taken to stop any future attacks, I cannot in any way shape or form condone condemning an entire race or nation because of their religious beliefs. Doesn't that make us just as bad as Hitler? And for us, as a nation, to take out our frustrations on Mosques in the US and on innocent people here of Arabic descent is probably the second greatest tragedy that I have witnessed this week (the first being the terroristic attacks).
That being said, yes - find the b*stards that did this and make them pay....but please, please, try not to slaughter entire nations filled with women and children to do it!
posted on September 16, 2001 09:08:51 AMI cannot in any way shape or form condone condemning an entire race or nation because of their religious beliefs. Doesn't that make us just as bad as Hitler?
There's a terminology problem in these communications, the terms are not well defined.
There are three entitites one might condemn, or recommend eradication of, for that matter.
1. a race
2. a religion
3. a nation
Now, let's add one more:
4. those people who collectively harbor terrorists
No one I've heard has recommended the elminiation of a race. This is vaguely a "white vs brown" issue, but the lines are not racial.
Some, a very few, have recommended the killing of all Islam, but this is a silly recommendation. It simply cannot be carried out without destruction of our own lives as we know them. If we tried to do such a thing on the ground, the entire world would turn against us. It is simply not an informed recommendation.
When we refer to a nation, we refer to its government and in limited ways to its people. Thus, when we sought the destruction of Nazi Germany, we sought the complete destruction of the Nazi government, and we didn't much mind if a million German civilians died in the process. History gives a very clear lesson, some countries must be treated this way, or things get a lot worse. Pacifism and wishing the beligerant would just go away works in some civilized contexts; it fails utterly in the fact of an uncivilized enemy who is intending to kill.
Lastly, and at the extreme of what anyone at all informed might be recommending is the destruction of that part of Islam which is harboring terrorists, for a broad definition of "harboring". This would involve the killing of some tens of millions of people, most of whom silently cheered the action, but never did any actual harboring in any way (and might reflect diffrently upon the action after time). The equivalent of, say, killing everyone who has ever belonged to an early '90s style "militia" to eliminate future McVeighs.
Most people find the concept of killing all of Islam to be genocidal. Even less, most might consider the killing of tens of millions of people to be genocide regardless of what those people did, or how much they celebrated. However, at some point as we narrow the definition of "harbor", we are likely to get to a point where the majority of Americans will support widespread killing. We believee we have met a very dangerous enemy, and we must kill it.
Does that enemy include a mother who raised her boys from childhood to become martyrs for Islam againt America? Does it include a cleric who praises the action, glorifying the martyrs? Does it include women and children set up as shields? If there exist thirty "innocents" amongst a thousand we have decided must die, are we concerned?
Is non-genocidal to kill the enemy once the enemy is narrowed down to, say, less than 1% of Islam, and it is shown that that 1% is a real threat to repeat the terror?
posted on September 16, 2001 09:36:46 AM
Maybe I need to rephrase my statements. I believe that innocents will be lost. I believe this is necessary - although I don't have to like it. What I don't believe is that there have been several posts, here and in other forums that are stating that we need to go over and turn all of the middle east into a parking lot. Or that we need to eradicate all Muslims. After what we have been through as a nation, why do people still insist on being idiots?
I do not believe that this can be solved in a non-violent way. I do not believe that we can stand idly by and let it happen. I trust my government will not condone the wholesale slaughter of a people because the people of our nation want blood. I am proud to be an American and I would be prouder if ALL the people of my nation would focus their hurt and anger towards the few who caused this pain - not all of the people that have the similar religious beliefs or hail from the same geographic region.
posted on September 16, 2001 09:55:07 AMand I would be prouder if ALL the people of my nation would focus their hurt and anger towards the few who caused this pain
Do you count among those few the mother who raised her sons to die in a jihad against America?
Do you count the cleric who praised this and former such actions?
posted on September 16, 2001 10:36:08 AM
Roofguy -
Personally, no I do not blame them - I blame the leaders of their factions that have chosen to interpret the Quran that way.
The religion is basically peaceful - just as Christianity is. However, a few sick individuals have turned out a warped version of the religion to satisfy their delusions. We have had that happen here in the US also - look at Waco - look at the mass suicide of the folks who were waiting for the comet...
The difference to me is that at least the people here in the US had the right to choose - they may have eventually been brainwashed by their leaders, but they chose that path in the first place.
I'm not sure that is the case for most of the mid-east. I don't know either as I have never been there, nor have I talked with many that have, but I have tried to read up on it in the last few months, and I am not sure that they have many choices.
I don't have the answers and I am grateful that I don't have to make the decisions that Pres. Bush has to make. All I can do is trust in those decisions, and trust in God that this will all work out. My only point is that I am really saddened to see the racial hatred that has once again surfaced in this nation.
What I do know is that there are many persons of the Islamic faith here and elsewhere that do not share the same radical beliefs. They do not endorse taking human lives. They should not be beat up in our schools or shot at in their places of worship because of misdirected 'patriotism'.
posted on September 16, 2001 10:45:37 AMMy only point is that I am really saddened to see the racial hatred that has once again surfaced in this nation.
You're the second to mention such this morning.
I follow the news, but somehow I have completely missed any racial angle. Both the victims and Islam are multi-racial.
Can you expand a bit on your observation of racial hatred?
Is it possible that you have combined "race and religion" into "race"?
posted on September 16, 2001 11:15:30 AM
roofguy -
I can't remember if it was on msnbc.com or cnn.com - one of the two has a long article outlining the backlash that has been directed at Arab-Americans as a result of the terrorist attack. Whether this is caused by their race or their religion, I am not sure, but I am more inclined to think race as some attacks did not occur in a shrine or other place of worship.
I'm not against military justice. I think in this case it is highly warranted and justified. I just don't want to see this country harbor more bigotry and hatred - we've seen enough of that. I would love to see people judged on their actions and words, not their color or religion.
America is a wonderful country that shouldn't stand for terrorism against its people - whether the terrorists are foreign or domestic - and I think hate crimes are a form of terrorism.
Jane
(who should probably be quiet as I am highly emotional and probably not stating my opinion very well....)
posted on September 16, 2001 11:53:11 AM
twinsoft- Congress just passed a $14 billion package to keep the major airlines from bankruptacy - it is supposed to last them for only 90 days. Continental just laid off 12,000, 20% of its workforce. This ripple effect in the economy is real and will be a challenge even for the U.S..
Police state ? Senate just passed the WARRANTLESS eletronic communication wire tap act and the anti-encryption law. All electronic communications can be wire tapped without a warrant. Both of these bills were, and I repeat were, hotly contested. I haven't read the entire encryption act yet but it may include the mandatory Govt key for all encrypted communications.
You make it sound as though the armed soldiers on the streets of Israel are off duty service men and woman just out for a stroll, when in fact they are STATIONED at these places. There are military check points and mandatory ID cards in Israel. Those internal check points have tanks and APCs at them.
The Israeli off duty soldiers are encouraged to take their weapons with them wherever they go, it is not uncommon to see people with Uzis in a movie theatre or shopping for groceries.
Nearly every security professional that has been asked about our safety measures has recommended us to study how Israel does it.
Will life in the U.S. be impossible? Not even close. Will it be the kind life we will cherish ? That remains to be seen.
posted on September 16, 2001 12:09:33 PM
Since the comparison of this conflict to the last great war that was fought WWII keeps coming up I would like to point out that the US bombed huge tracts of cities and killed thousands in Germany. Many of those people had to be as innocent as could be and had no desire to hurt the US but there is and was a community responsibility if they allow their leaders to harm others without opposing them.
That is pretty much what they are saying now. If you are a haven. If you allow them to live among you to hide and do business with them you share in their acts.
posted on September 16, 2001 01:25:16 PMbacklash that has been directed at Arab-Americans as a result of the terrorist attack.
This was not a domestic act. It was an attack from abroad. American immigrants, including nearly all of us no more than three generations back, have a long history of abandoning the various fights they were involved in when they left their homeland.
The problem is not American Moslems, who have been as well behaved and tolerant as other Americans. There is however a problem with Islam in general, which seems to create an obsessed, violent minority wherever it achieves majority status.
Consider again our uneasiness with the militia movement of 10 years ago. We were uneasy not because of the 99% of militia members who were non violent, if a bit extreme in their views. We were uneasy because the movement itself created, by peer reward, the violent fanatics. There was a problem there. It took Oklahoma City for the 99% to come to their senses, and stop rewarding violence in any way. This reflection on, and rejection of violence seems not to be likely to happen with Islam, and we can expect a continuing renewal of the supply of suicidal terrorists.
[ edited by mark090 on Sep 14, 2001 04:53 PM ]
