posted on December 8, 2000 08:48:45 AM new
I'm not around much right now, lots of stuff going on, and I'm sorry I didn't get to stusi's thread in time to contribute.
I have something to say about this subject, however, and come from the unusual perspective of having handled this situation in every way possible, I think. I'm particularly interested in sharing this perspective with the young lady about to make the decision to have an abortion who posted in the locked thread.
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When I was 17, I got pregnant and was scared to death. Now you must understand, my Mom is a card-carrying Pro-lifer who actually marches in front of abortion clinics. It was very clear to me that she'd have supported me in having a child if I so chose, but I didn't want to, didn't feel prepared, all the reasons every woman goes through in such a situation. My grandmother was alive at the time, and a strong proponent of abortion rights. I made the decision to have an abortion, she paid for it, and covered for me by telling my Mom she wanted my company for the weekend.
I'm not sure how everyone feels about the process, or how typical my reactions were. As stated, I had a lot of grounding in the idea that what I was doing was wrong, was murder, and so forth. I can tell you that I felt very ambivalent, almost stopped the procedure, woke up crying, felt more desolate than I've ever felt in my life.
My goal is not to preach, just to share what I felt. I'd not like to feel it again.
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Fast forward to me at 23. I had vowed to never be in the situation of being pregnant pre-marriage again, and had been exceedingly careful, so I was shocked when I found out I was, indeed, pregnant.
The father was a beautiful person, but totally unprepared for and likely unable to be the husband and father I envisioned. Moreover, I wasn't ready to be a Mommy, and felt absolutely no sense of love for the creature growing inside of me, no maternal instincts whatsoever.
However, I simply couldn't bring myself to ever go through the abortion experience again. So I decided to have the baby.
My parents were supportive, but that period of time was not good for me. I was scared, cranky, horrified with the way I looked, embarrassed when people asked questions, and kept having horrible dreams about having a deformed child!
I can't explain in words what the experience of having your first child is like, but I can tell you that I had a bad labor, was exhausted and angry, not at all emotionally or physically prepared for what was about to happen.
But the very second my eyes met the eyes of my daughter, my world changed so inevitably and wonderfully that it defies description. *I* changed, instantaneously, into a person for whom the whole purpose of life had become somehow about the adventure of protecting this little person.
I won't say it was easy being a single Mom. I was lucky, in that I had a great job, could work part-time and make enough money to support myself, and also gifted with tremendous support and help from friends and family.
I will say that I shudder at the thought of who I might be today if I hadn't made the choice to bring my lovely daughter (who will be 14 tomorrow, so the memory of her birth is especially fresh) into the world.
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Fast forward again, this time I'm 26, still a single Mom, working long hours by now, dating this great guy who was a Programmer by day and a rock and roll singer by night.
I have distinctly bad luck with birth control! And yes, yes, from my lofty perch of wisdom at 37, I can see that given this, I ought to have been practicing abstention, but well, I didn't.
The horror and shock at learning that I was ONCE AGAIN pregnant made me sick to my stomach. Y'all are probably shaking your heads in disgust by now as well.
Well, this story's already becoming a novel, so I'll cut to the chase and say that krs questions about paternal rights are something I wish someone had brought up then. Because I couldn't imagine marrying this guy, and I couldn't imagine having yet another child as a single Mom, and I couldn't even consider abortion, as I still had nightmares from the previous one.
Giving a child up for adoption is *THE MOST DIFFICULT CHOICE* of them all. Living through it is pure hell, and no, not everyone is supportive, most people are aghast, particularly when you're clearly comfortably off. It is gut-wrenching, horrible misery for 9 whole months, and the only way I lived through it is to more or less shut down. I sometimes thought I would scream if one more person patted my stomach and asked about names. I sometimes cried in the car driving home.
Giving a child up for adoption was nonetheless, the *right* thing for me to do. I knew it then, and I know it now. Nobody ever said the right thing to do is easy. But we all have this gnawing sense of what's right or wrong for ourselves (and I believe this is deeply personal, and not subject to others' judgment), and listening to that internal voice is essential if you are going to live with yourself in any peace.
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To the young woman making a decision about what to do:
My life is very, very different from yours, and I would never presume to tell you what to do, and it would be, clearly, hypocritical for me to point fingers at ANY choice, I've done it all. (Including finally having a child, my impish Christopher who's birthday was 12-5, the "normal" way at last, with a Daddy - coincidentally that same programmer/rock-n-roller, much matured - and a nuclear family. That way is the easiest of all.)
I would simply share my experiences with you, in all their odd detail, and tell you that for me, having an abortion was something that felt very much like killing a child, because that's what I believe it was, all rationale aside. That's a stark thing to say, but I believe I've earned the right to an opinion!
If for any reason you'd like to discuss this more with me, please feel very free to e-mail me and we can chat that way or by phone if you prefer: [email protected]
To others, I apologize if this point of view offends, or this story bores, or any of the possible adverse reactions you may have...please just skip over it, or whatever makes you feel comfortable.
I'm sorry that I can't be here to read or respond, my plate is fully loaded for the next few weeks.
posted on December 8, 2000 09:39:01 AM new
"Giving a child up for adoption was nonetheless, the *right* thing for me to do. I knew it then, and I know it now. Nobody ever said the right thing to do is easy. But we all have this gnawing sense of what's right or wrong for ourselves (and I believe this is deeply personal, and not subject to others' judgment), and listening to that internal voice is essential if you are going to live with yourself in any peace."
Diana,
Without this My wife & I would never have had any children.
My hope is that those that provided the opportunties for us to be parents are as proud of them as we are..
posted on December 8, 2000 10:43:20 AM new
Diana,
Thank you for posting your story, I admire your honesty and the courage you have to make the decisions you did. You are right, we are different but that doesn't make your experience or insight any less valid to me. I also would like to congratulate you on the birth of your son. To parents who truly want to be parents, the birth of a child is the greatest blessing there is.
I was disappointed when the other thread was locked. There were some things aimed in my direction that I felt were unfair and I never had the chance to comment.
I have never imagined myself the "tragic heroine" in this. This is a horrible situation for anyone to be in with, clearly, no winners. I am not proud of the choice I am making but I will never believe that it is the wrong choice to make.
I do not believe the abortion is murder, I'm not sure what it is exactly, but it's not murder. I also don't believe in Jesus so the Christian stance is lost on me. I don't believe that everyone I've wronged in life will be lined up at the gates of heaven or hell to berate me, if in fact those places exist. I do believe that souls are reincarnated and if, in fact, this fetus has a soul it will be reincarnated into a child born to parents who want to be parents and who will truly feel blessed by their child.
I think people who can give up a child for adoption are amazing people. I also think that people who can take in a child and raise it love it as their own are amazing. I always admire the qualities in people I don't possess. I am not in a position, even if I wanted to, that I could carry this pregnancy to term and then place the child for adoption.
The truth of the matter is, a week from now, a year from now, a decade from now, I am the one who has to live with the decision I am making not any one else. I doubt that any one here is without sin, I may mangle the quote because I am not up on my bible but isn't is said someplace that "let he who is without sin cast the first stone." I see a lot of stones being cast and I doubt I am in saintly company. I also doubt that any of you are bad people because you made mistakes in your past.
posted on December 8, 2000 12:17:22 PM new
Decisions would be easy to make if we knew what the future held, if we knew every ramification and consequence of every action we took.
But we don't. We do the best we can, at any given time, with the limited information that we have.
Different times, different circumstances, different decisions. You do the BEST you can at each time.
posted on December 8, 2000 12:43:41 PM new
turtlesgirl- don't be concerned about the "tragic heroine" post. you shared something that although personal and heartfelt, was inevitably going to bring some criticism. i was amazed at the civility of the long thread and wanted to end it on a relatively positive note. have a great holiday-stusi
posted on December 8, 2000 02:21:31 PM new
Wonderful thread. We can all learn from each other.
15 years ago a close family member got pregnant at a time in her life when she was on anti-depressants, suicidal, and very mixed up. She had an abortion, with her parents' blessing.
Occasionally I wonder what that child would be today--about 14 years old, for one thing!
The young woman made the right decision--for her--at that time.
I'm glad I've never had to make that decision. Those who think it's made cavalierly without any thought by sinful young women are just plain wrong. It's a painful decision at best.
But. . . do you want the state to make that decision for a woman? I say no, never! The decision is between that woman and her God.
And. . . I'm glad more young women are opting to put the baby up for adoption. It is indeed ONE of the right things to do! Thanks for starting this thread.
I have it right, I think, that your current partner is the father of your adopted out child, or do I? If I do, was he involved in the decision to adopt out his child, and does he now have any ability to contact that child if he were to want to do so?
It seems to me that placing a child for adoption, while obviously having benefit for the adoptive parents as well as very likely having real benefit for the child, is decision that is beyond that of having an abortion. In an abortion the weight of consequence may well be more upon the mother than upon the father, but in an adoption those considerations are much more, if not completely, equal provided that both parents are present in whatever proximity.
posted on December 8, 2000 04:10:54 PM new i was amazed at the civility of the long thread and wanted to end it on a relatively positive note.
That is perhaps the singlemost idiotic statement I have ever read on these boards. Your thread was about abortion -- the killing of babies. Babies who are sucked out of the womb, whose tiny limbs are chopped up in the process, who are burned to death with saline solutions or killed by other means.
Yet you wanted the thread to end on a POSITIVE note? What next? An upbeat Holocaust thread? Maybe a thread to find something positive in the genocidal extermination of the American Indian?
There's nothing positive about slaughter, stusi, whether the victims are Jews, Native Americans, or anyone else -- including unborn children. .
posted on December 8, 2000 04:17:01 PM new
Humans are so egotistical. Oh sure, smash insects without a thought, euthanize cats and dogs, kill animals for sport, for food, because they're threatening our pets... but when a human sperm and egg meet, oh, that's miraculous and precious. Please.
posted on December 8, 2000 05:06:35 PM new
I have to comment here and it may not be the popular one.
I feel that the child you and your sperm donor have created deserves a chance at life.
I really do not see the reasons why you cannot have the baby and then put it up for adoption. There are so many loving families that would want him/her. There are even open adoptions where you can get pics and know the child as it develops.
If you are thinking giving up one year, the toll on my body etc. - when you are older and see the scope of your life - one year is nothing. You will have done the best for this child.
I will tell you and I do know - if you have an abortion - you will regret it the rest of your life. You will always wonder - when you have other children you will always wonder. You will be depressed around that time of year when the baby would have been due etc.
Most adoption couples now pay for your medical needs fully as well as if you have to be off of work.
I have been in your shoes and I do not wish the turmoil you will be under for the rest of your life if you go through what you are planning.
Good luck to you and the baby in whatever you decide. Whether you have the child or not - try to get on birth control that is not controlled by you. An IUD lasts up to 10 years, shots up to 6 months etc. No pills to forget etc. No more accidents. That is not fair to the babies , the fathers or yourself.
I just feel there are consequences to actions and abortion is an easy way out. But you will never be 'out' as your mind and heart will never let you forget.
posted on December 8, 2000 05:20:56 PM new
But there are lots of babies and older children in the world already who need homes. Why make more? An additional adoptable baby in the world will lead to a child somewhere else never being adopted.
There are orphanages in some of the colder regions of China where the infant mortality rate during wintertime is more than 50%. My source for that statistic is a friend who used to work in the international adoption industry.
Adoption is a wonderful choice -- my parents adopted me after I was born to a 17 year old girl. But there are more babies who need homes than there are parents willing to make them their own. We're lucky to live in a country where babies are in demand, but many children are not so lucky.
posted on December 8, 2000 05:26:34 PM new
Boysmommy3,what you say is true for you. It is not true for the women I know that have had abortions. They do not regret it. They do not mourn at the time the baby would have been born. They have gone on with their lives. Not everyone feels the same. Really, there are lots of people out there who do not want children, who would not make good parents.Some people do not even like children. Imagine that!
RainyBear, I agree completely!Conception and birth may be "miraculous" but it is no more of a miracle for humans than other animals.
posted on December 8, 2000 05:36:11 PM new
You know I never read the other thread completely through but now have. I am now apalled at your decision. You are not a young woman who made a mistake, who is not financially able to go through with this pregnancy etc. Your reasons are absolutely selfish. If you and your husband decided a long time ago not to have children why hasn't one of you taken care of that?? Someone with your education and finances could have easily done so. So instead of paying for those consequences you are going to abort this baby you created. I do not understand that at all.
Rainybear,
I usually agree with you but have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. It is not this child's fault that there are others to adopt so let's kill him/her.
I do agree with you that there are many children who need good homes. Unfortunately, many of the children that need good homes had homes that were abusive etc.
Amazing that you need to take a test to drive a car but anyone can have children.
posted on December 8, 2000 05:37:44 PM new
I guess I was thinking tea because it's so polite and civilized. A large measure of those qualities would be necessary to temper such a discussion.
posted on December 8, 2000 05:50:09 PM new
Boysmommy3 - I understand why you disagree with me. I really have mixed feelings about this subject (though I know it may not appear that way in my posts), and it's interesting to hear different perspectives about it when they're presented reasonably and rationally, and you're one person who definitely does that.
On a global scale it seems that life is expendable, but on an individual scale it's sacred, whether that life is a baby growing inside the womb or a fully-grown adult. I have a hard time logically meshing those two perspectives.
I agree with you 100% about how ridiculous it is that one needs a test to drive a car but anyone can have a baby, and with the free availability of birth control it shouldn't happen as often as it does (not considering failed birth control).
You may have a better perspective about this on a personal level than I do because I've never been pregnant (knock on wood!), and as I've matured I've been able to see different sides of the issue.
Anyway, enough of this for now....
Edited for typo.
[ edited by RainyBear on Dec 8, 2000 05:52 PM ]
posted on December 8, 2000 05:50:48 PM newSo instead of paying for those consequences you are going to abort this baby you created. I do not understand that at all.
What you do not understand, boysmommy is that this is a deeply personal decision. It is no one's business but turtlegirls. You know nothing about her life or circumstances, certainly not enough to call her selfish. This is a legal and moral decision that is hers alone to make. And she will have to make the decision that is right for her. She not you will live by that decision. And that's as it should be.
posted on December 8, 2000 05:54:52 PM newI will tell you and I do know - if you have an abortion - you will regret it the rest of your life. You will always wonder - when you have other children you will always wonder. You will be depressed around that time of year when the baby would have been due etc.
This can't be a generalized statement, because no two people are exactly alike. I did not, nor do I now, ever regret making the decision that I made 15 years ago when I was 20. The decision to have an abortion does not depress me. I do not sit wondering what that child would be like.
If the truth be known, I rarely think about it. But if I did, I would be thankful that I made that decision. I am not tied to the child's father.. who was an abusive SOB. I have nothing to remind me of 2 years of sheer hell that I spent with him.
To carry this even further, if I were to think about this even more. If I hadn't had the abortion, I would not have the wonderful husband I have now.. nor would I have the two wonderful children that I have now. I can not imagine my life without any of them.
I do not regret the decision to have an abortion and it does not haunt me.
There are probably others who feel the way I do.. Just as there are those who fall into the category that you named ... and others who probably fall into another category. No one ever knows, unless they are the ones who have personally experienced it.
posted on December 8, 2000 05:55:04 PM new
You know what, I don't actually drink either tea or coffee. I drink way too much pop during the day but I'm trying to cut back (sipping Diet Coke, yuck!)
It actually would be fun to have a Seattle AW dinner sometime... I'd go. We could all wear name tags with our AW names on them or something.
posted on December 8, 2000 06:13:07 PM new
Katyd,
It is her choice and a sacred one that she has to make.
She brought it here. The first thread was locked but she chose to come back so I have no problem voicing my opinion. If she did not want opinions - she shouldn't have brought this personal issue to the boards.
You say I know nothing about her life. She made it very clear that she is an educated, professional woman in her thirties that is married and her and her hubby do not ever want children. SHE informed us - I assumed nothing.
IMHO -
If you bring issues to a public board then you leave yourself open and know that people will respond. That was a choice she made.
Rainybear,
Organize it and I will go!! Lots of great places downtown!
posted on December 8, 2000 06:34:04 PM newboysmommy3, turtlesgirl voiced her opinion in the other thread where opinions on abortion was asked for. She also shared about a personal decision that she made. She did not invite opinions as to whether her decision is the right one. She obviously feels it is right for her. No where did she ask to be castigated and criticized for a decision that she alone has the right to make. You surely have your own opinions about the abortion issue as is your right. You, however are out of line to criticize her on the personal level that you did. You do NOT know her business, nor her complete life circumstances. You only know the little she has chosen to share publically. Certainly not enough for you to stand in judgement of her, or give your personal opinion about an event in her life and of which she has asked for no opinions from anyone here.
posted on December 8, 2000 06:34:09 PM new
Rawbunzel,
No you wouldn't. I love to hear both sides of an issue. Respectfully disagreeing from time to time keeps it going
Seriously -
I think a dinner would be great. I would even organize if you guys are interested. Maybe will start a new thread and see.
posted on December 8, 2000 06:45:31 PM new
I've been very impressed by this discussion so far. It's been very civil and that seems to be relatively rare nowadays.
By the way, I work for a major HMO. Birth control *is not* covered. And it's not cheap - I think it's roughly $30/month. To someone who doesn't make a lot a money, that can be a significant amount.
Birth control is not as easily available nor as cheap as some people seem to think. Nor is it effective 100% of the time.
(By the way, this same HMO tried to make a masectomy an out-patient procedure and - yes - it covers Viagra.)
I remember when my first son was born. The health insurance that my husband had at the time did not cover maternity costs. It took us several years to pay off. (It also did not cover birth control.) This in itself can be a major factor if you are not well off. (I had a totally uncomplicated pregnancy - was out of the hospital in less than a day - yet the bill was over $7,000 12 years ago.)
Don't get me wrong - I have nothing but contempt for women who know better but don't use birth control because 'it makes them fat' or have multiple abortions but I really believe they are in the minority. You might hear about it more because - since they aren't ashamed about it - they talk about it more.
But I truly believe most women who have abortions regret that the pregnancy occurred and also regret that they had to make this decision. The world is not perfect - sometimes you just have to make the 'best' decision you can among the choices available to you.
And it's not my right to make decisions as to what is best for you. I might disagree with your belief system (whatever it is) but that doesn't make me right and you wrong. If I make a mistake, I pay for it myself. And I allow everyone else that same right.
I am a coffee person!