posted on September 17, 2001 09:05:18 PM
This could have been a really good thing, if eBay had done like our president, TAKE ENOUGH TIME to do it RIGHT. This is "Half baked".
posted on September 17, 2001 09:28:28 PM
What if an unscrupulous seller decides to take eBay’s sham a little further by listing items in the AFA auction? The seller will get free listing from eBay. The seller can then make it clear in his/her TOS that they DO NOT ACCEPT BILLPOINT, and the cost of shipping the item to the buyer. The buyer pays for the item plus shipping, with PayPal or with a money order, thus bypassing eBay’s AFA and BillPoint. The seller will get free listing, more exposure for his/her auctions, and not having to pay a FVF for his sales. Since a lot of buyers do not read information on auction listings, no one might find out what is going on. The unscrupulous seller gets a dishonest advantage thanks to eBay.
posted on September 17, 2001 09:31:40 PM
Thank you for calling eBay's poll to my attention...I have voted NO! There are a number of other things that come to mind...
How would a refund be handled if the buyer isn't satisfied with their purchase...another thing for us to think about.
posted on September 17, 2001 10:08:13 PM
Fees
1-eBay waives insertion fees and final value fees on items listed and sold through the Auction for America program.
2-The seller is responsible for shipping & handling expenses related to their Auction for America items.
3-All features selected by the seller will be charged standard fees. However, eBay will donate all featured fees for Auction for America items to The September 11th Fund.
------------------------------------------
The way I read this, the seller gives the item, shipping & handling AND pays the ebay online payment(Billpoint) fees also. Is eBay giving the payment fees to the Sept 11 fund or keeping it? Does anyone know?
posted on September 17, 2001 10:26:40 PMShame on you ebay!! Shame on your greedy b@$!@&d a$$e$ for showing such disgusting idiocy.
I am packing my $hop up and moving to another venue (I have not listed anything and ended all my auctions anyhow.).
What an embarassment.What brass balls decided to go for the jugular on that one? Boycott this blatent miasma of greed. September 11th is tragic, historic and complex. Nothing like the base instincts of Meg et al to turn it into a ba$tardized selling opportunity. If you have integrity as a seller, avoid this kind of marketing genius that is so low it looks up at pond scum.
Sorry if I sound harsh, oh I don't care. I lost two friends in that nastiness and I can tell you that there is nothing nice about what has happened. And to turn it into an auction is horrific.
I am contacting media, I hope you all do the same.
posted on September 18, 2001 01:08:21 AM
I believe ebay reads these boards.
All the sellers and buyers made ebay rich.
All the sellers and buyers are hurting because of last week.
Now, for ebay to jump ahead with something like this it is unforgivable.
ebay, you are hurting my family, my friends, and my acquaintances by doing this. Many are having a difficult time competing as it is and this may finish them off.
Do you think we want to be associated with your greedy actions and make you even richer?
posted on September 18, 2001 01:41:44 AM
Well, I wasn't going to participate in the A4A auctions, but I decided to after all.
Why? Because:
1) I already accept BillPoint, so that is not big deal to me.
2) My budget won't allow me to donate as much financially as I would like to, so I came up with some handcrafted items that I could make with materials I already have on-hand. The shipping cost for these items will be less than $1.00, including packaging and postage. So even though I myself can't donate a large sum of money, I can help out by donating these handcrafted items and giving the proceeds from these sales to charity.
So I listed 18 of these auctions yesterday evening, with the option to Buy-It-Now on each of them. I was very surprised (and very pleased!) when 17 out of 18 of the items sold literally within hours at the Buy-It-Now price, which I set at a few dollars above the bid price. The 18th item was bid on, which took away the Buy-It-Now option, but the bidding is currently up to within $.50 of my Buy-It-Now price.
It's 4:30am here, and I have stayed up all night making more of these items and will list them tomorrow.
Assuming most of them sell at my Buy-It-Now price, almost $300 will have been donated to charity as a result.
I could not have afforded to donate $300 out of my own pocket.
So even though I don't always approve of the things eBay does, and I'm no means a "cheerleader", I am glad to be able to do this in order to help those who are in need.
posted on September 18, 2001 01:46:26 AM
it's the last straw for me, I can't pay my bills now as it is because sales are down so bad. I started looking for a job tonight, the first time I will have worked for someone else in over 18 years if I find one. I should have bailed on ebay 4 months ago when it was getting slow. oh well live an learn, if I do find a job that pays the bills maybe I can get straight at Christmas an just list the holidays like some of the other sellers.
posted on September 18, 2001 02:50:00 AMthedewey, now that's the good thing about this whole situation...this let's some sellers, myself included, donated more money to the relief effort than we would normally have been able to give.
I'll spend the $20 on shipping if it means $100-$200 goes to help out. Whatever the ulterior motives eBay had for setting this up, it makes me feel good that I can give more to the effort, and in some little way helps me come to grips with what happened.
I am definitely NOT afraid of competition between the AforA auctions and the regular auctions. I'm still getting quite a lot of bids on my regular items, which I think is amazing considering we are barely a week from the WTC tragedy. Bids starting picking up this weekend, so I believe people are either picking up the pieces and getting back with their lives, or bidding and buying to take their minds off the situation. Not everything being sold or being bought is going to be an AforA auction...in fact, I doubt very few sellers will be putting their finest wares out under that banner. Not everything is necessarily appropriate for the program, and I think most buyers realize that eBay sellers have to eat too.
My only change would be to add an automatic Paypal payment option to the system.
posted on September 18, 2001 03:18:24 AM"Understand, the ONLY things eBay is "donating" is the sellers' money, and a very small amount of server space, the server space that would be used to list these items, in exchange for all the free publicity they will get from such a "generous" act."
The server space used for these auctions is MINUSCULE considering the FREE PUBLICITY eBay will receive out of this. Billpoint credit card transaction expenses, which Billpoint/eBay will have to absorb, really cost them much more than the server space does---but even THOSE costs will be partially offset by the interest eBay will earn on the money it holds "in escrow" for the next 100 days. Remember, eBay won't be turning over any part of the donation until around Christmas (AND DON'T PUT IT PAST EBAY TO MAKE THEIR "GENEROUS" DONATION ON CHRISTMAS DAY, AMID LOTS OF PUBLICITY AND FANFARE)......so the money they collect---all the payments for YOUR donated items plus cash donations given directly on the site---will be sitting in THEIR bank account earning interest for over 3 months.
This is the most BLATANTLY SELF-SERVING, MORALLY REPREHENSIBLE, DISGUSTINGLY INSENSITIVE thing eBay has ever done. Either those people running the company out in California have no souls, or they have a collective IQ of 25.
Look at all the parts of the equation and see who "wins":
UNITED WAY: Gets $100 million from eBay USERS (though eBay will get all the credit), they get lots of publicity, and possibly more donations from other companies who feel pressured to be more generous 'like eBay'.
BUYER: Pays for merchandise he would buy anyway somewhere else; gets free shipping; and 'feels good' that he donated to a worthy cause while purchasing something he wants.
EBAY: Gives free server space and credit card expenses for charity auctions, but IN RETURN gets thousands more Billpoint users (which have been hard to come by in their battle with PayPal), thousands more registered eBay buyers, interest on the money for 100 days, income tax deductions, AND probably several million dollars in free publicity and public 'goodwill' media exposure for their 'generosity'. Ebay is the only one who will receive 'credit' for this donation, NOT THE SELLERS---who were the actual donors.
SELLER: Gives item for which he receives no payment AND pays shipping/handling expenses himself; pays featuring fees himself; exposes himself to negative feedback and/or $10 credit card chargeback fees (eBay doesn't mention that part); and finds that his NON-charity listings (which DO charge shipping fees), are at an unfair disadvantage to the highly-publicized AFA listings. What does HE get in return? He gets to 'feel good' that he donated through eBay's nameless/faceless 'community', and takes a tax deduction for his costs (which is harder to document than a direct charity donation would be).
Over 5,000 people are dead, we're about to go to war, and Meg is searching out the spotlight and TV cameras. Disgusting. MORE THAN disgusting.....repulsive.
Much as I dislike Bill Gates' cut-throat business tactics, at least HE makes straightforward donations out of his own pocket and that of his company. He doesn't call a press conference to announce the 'pending donation' he'll make after all his customers send him the money for it.
There are any number of ways eBay could have structured their 'donation' promotion in a way which would have taken money out of THEIR pocket as well as allowing their users to donate---but this sure wasn't one of them.
posted on September 18, 2001 03:37:07 AM
i'd have been willing to participate if the donation had been evenly distributed - say i agree a % i agreed to, perhaps given a choice on the % - would go to the relief fund, and ebay matches it. or listed a few things if ebay would match it. something! in all instances the buyer should pay shipping. in fact it would be even better if the buyer were give an option to given an extra $1 or whatever. and allow other online payment options. after that auto-insertion of billpoint into the listings of all sellers who have a billpoint account, that made me even less willing to ever sign up for it.
for those of you who have items you can make quickly and ship inexpensively, more power to you. most of us can't, and are already hurting after months of slow sales, and then last week's tragedy - both with slow or no bids, and having difficulty listing and going on with 'business as usual.' hopefully theredcircle is right, and these auctions won't have much of an impact on the rest of the listings.
have to say, this did sober me: amazing considering we are barely a week from the WTC tragedy
difficult to believe that it was only a mere week from right now, i was sitting right here, perhaps reading ebay outlook, and thousands of people who are now gone were well and alive. the world was more or less as it always had been in my lifetime, now forever changed. only a week ago ...
posted on September 18, 2001 03:53:25 AM
You are all right-on with the condemnation of eBay for using this tragedy as a promotional opportunity for Billpoint. How crass.
There's another accounting trick they're using, also deceptive, also to their benefit.
They are CHARGING FEES, and then crediting those back to the seller. Doesn't sound like much, but it is. Here's how that accounting trickery works. By charging the fees first, they increase their "revenue" reported for the quarter (both on a pro-forma basis, and on a GAAP basis). This is misleading to investors, as eBay will never see that money, yet they'll report it.
The subsequent "credit back" would appear in a different part of the statement, farther down, so "profit on operations" will also be artificially increased.
Due to the nature of this "Auction for America", the expenses (including the credits back to sellers) will almost certainly NOT be included in their pro-forma profit/loss statement AT ALL. In fact, there are several ways they may be able to eliminate this cost from their GAAP report too (10-Q).
Their statement "we will not profit" is technically true. However, it sure may look like it on paper to the unwary investor (maybe even on the GAAP 10-Q they'll file). Since many investors pay very close attention to REVENUE in addition to profit, it results in a very misleading & false statement about the true performance for the quarter. They do this intentionally, and for their own deceptive gain. Period.
BTW, they do this trickery for the free-listing days too, and the last one created a tremendous (artificial) boost to their reported revenue. Most wonder "Why credit and then charge back -- seems like a lot of unnecessary work?" Well, now you know.
This is one of the most self-centered, self-serving, greedy corporate capitalizations on this tragedy I've seen. eBay should be thoroughly ashamed of what they're doing.
Oh yeah, on the Billpoint "mandate", I suppose it would be too difficult to set up a 1-800 number for those that wanted to donate and NOT use Billpoint, huh? Amazing that they're so greedy, and so eager to capitalize on such a tragedy. I hope users consider the method & intent behind this, and avoid it completely. Donate directly to the charities. I have.
posted on September 18, 2001 04:12:24 AM
If a buyer uses a stolen cc or does a chargeback, the seller will be out of a lot more than just the shipping expense. He/she will be out of shipping, packaging, cost of the item, cost of what the buyer paid, plus $10 fee.
posted on September 18, 2001 06:34:28 AM
I spent about a half-hour to 45 minutes last night checking out various auctions that people have listed under the new Auction for America on eBay. The majority of them have in their TOS shipping charges, some have shipping & handling. There were even some that stated they don't take Billpoint.
Just for grins I wrote a few and asked if this was an error more or less telling them eBays policy that they are to pay for shipping. So far I heard back from four different people who are expecting the buyer to pay shipping.
I wonder how many others who jumped on the bandwagon realize eBay's rule on this is that the seller pays for shipping? How many just don't care and will charge the buyer and even make money on the shipping? And for those sellers stating they don't take Billpoint I guess they are just bypassing the whole AFA and figuering they will get free listings and just cash in on all the publicity. This whole thing is disgusting.
posted on September 18, 2001 07:56:38 AM
I haven't listed anything new in over a week now and it doesn't look like I will be any time soon. The last of my stuff went off last night.
I'm just sick about this new turn of events with eBay. It was bad enough taking a beating on my $1NR sales this past week, but now I feel it will be hopeless.
I'm considering doing something that I thought I wouldn't have to ever do again.
My former boss has been after me for over 2 years to come back to work for him. I'm thinking about calling him and asking how soon he would like me to start.
I really dread doing that, it was a very hard and dirty(greasy, dusty dirty working with steel, weilding)job. It was heavy work. I'm a 50 something female and weigh a 100 pounds, I don't know if I could do the work anymore.
I can't afford to give my stuff away on eBay so I will just hang onto it. I've been stock pileing most of my best stuff for the coming months and I'll be damned I'm going to give it away on eBay.
I have bills to pay, I can't take too much time to ponder this.
I thought I was depressed last week, but now that it is hitting my pocketbook I'm really depressed.
I know this may sound selfish but Hey, my bills arn't going to cease because of all thats happened. Life must go on!
packer
[ edited by packer on Sep 18, 2001 08:39 AM ]
posted on September 18, 2001 08:07:41 AMThank you GreedBay!
I will not be participating in eBay's SCHEME either!
Why would I want to "donate" through eBay when I can give directly to the cause?
That way 100% of my money is being donated to MY choice of organization!
Also, if I listened to eBay...The money that I would spend in shipping...is money that is not going
to help anyone but the PO!!!. That shipping money could be used to HELP this cause.
There are so many more reasons NOT to participate in eBay's SCHEME!
eBay:
This is an all time low for you! DEPLORABLE!!!!
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time,
but you cannot fool all of the people all the time."
Abraham Lincoln
"O what a tangled web we weave,
When first we practice to deceive!
To lie a little is not possible; whoever lies, lies a whole lie."
[ edited by psalms139 on Sep 18, 2001 08:09 AM ]
posted on September 18, 2001 08:08:39 AM
Thanks for the heads up on the voting. I voted NO as well for a number of reasons:
1. United Way is one of the absolutely worst charities because they actually contribute a very small percentage of what they receive.
2. This plan to bolster Billpoint memberships leaves a very bad taste!
3. It is simply stupid to contribute in this fashion. Instead of my having to pay shipping I can just contribute that same money directly to the Red Cross or to the NY Firemans' Widow & Childrens' Fund.
I would urge everybody to contribute directly and, also, be aware that there are a lot of bogus funds out there. Contribute where you KNOW the money is going to the cause!
posted on September 18, 2001 08:10:50 AM
I never thought of it this way until I read this thread and glad I did. I already gave to the Red Cross and will give donations myself in other ways. I almost feel like ebay is also making those that don't particpate in selling this way look bad - like if we don't have our auction go for America we are selfish when people like me are giving in other ways. I don't want to go thru ebay for this due to what's been posted here and agree about ebay not contributing.
posted on September 18, 2001 08:17:08 AM
eBay WILL profit on this disgusting venture into hypocrisy, and profit BIG-TIME. You would THINK that (if ebay's motives were altruistic, as they claim they are) that the lawyers and the money people who invented this scam would at least be concerned about the appearance of using this unspeakable tragedy to their advantage. NOPE.
You would also think that those same lawyers and money grabbers, if they were interested in their users, would set this program up in a way that the money from the sellers' sales would go DIRECTLY to the Charitable organizations, thus enabling the people who are doing the work, donating the items, and paying shipping to use that as a Charitable deduction on their tax returns, to AT LEAST offset their EXPENSES like shipping. That could be done fairly easily. IN FACT, a system could have been set up whereby any seller could donate any part or ALL of any auction sale through eBay AS THE MIDDLE MAN with the supplied technology DIRECTLY to charity (with Charitable tax credit to the seller) so that eBay didn't profit on the blood of 5000 Americans and the toil of their members, allowing a seller to decide what part of their sale they want to donate AND TO WHAT LEGITIMATE CHARITY. Make no mistake, that would also have raised millions, and maybe just as much as this AFA scam, and it would have been just as "easy" to set up as this was. NOPE and NOPE.
1. As someone mentioned, their accounting technique will be exactly the same as the technique they used to artificially inflate listing numbers and revenue during the last free listing day- charge the fees, then they become revenue, then deduct the fees as promotional expenses, or whatever. Inflate the listing numbers with the free listings. Wall St. will see the total revenue and number of listings, NOT the fact that those numbers are a mirage. This is part of what their 1 million dollar INVESTMENT will do.
2. The profit- the sellers will not be able to claim their donated items on THEIR tax returns. They are "donating" item proceeds in fact to Billpoint, which is not a charitable organization. eBay WILL be able to claim ALL their expenses in setting up the program, instituting it, and running it, and every single PENNY that sellers put into Billpoint because it WILL be going to a chartitable entity. Let's say this garners 50 million, 20 million, whatever. You do the math, calculate the neighborhood of what eBay will be able to claim as their corporate donation on their taxes. You can rest assured it will be VASTLY more than the 1 million they put in from their "Foundation." AND, to add injury to this UNSPEAKABLE insult, not only will sellers have to absorb the entire cost of the item, shipping, etc., they will have to add the proceeds to their Gross Income as sales on April 15th, and pay taxes on it.
3. Take a look at their "Foundation" if you think eBay is this great charitable entity.
It's a Foundation that was started in 1998 with over 100,000 thousand shares of pre-IPO stock. If this is common stock, it is now worth 50 MILLION pre-any split. Since its inception, the Foundtaion has given grants of a whopping TWO AND A HALF MILLION out of that FIFTY, and if you read the Foundation's page, you see NO indication that they have used that money for charitable purposes IN THE LAST 9 MONTHS prior to this.
Charitable indeed.
4. Not to mention Billpoint, and escrow profits.
I have a very germane suggestion, and I hope there are financial people among us who will know how to implemenet it. Let's boycott this abomination, and set up a system whereby every eBay seller who does so donates $10 or some other agreed-upon amount of cash DIRECTLY to a charity associated with WTC etc., and their voice to a statement written by someone condemning this gross corporate descent into profiteering at its worst. I will be the first to sign up.
[ edited by GreedBay on Sep 18, 2001 08:21 AM ]
posted on September 18, 2001 08:27:15 AM
Packer, don't jump ship yet! But maybe reconsider one thing. Just try a few auctions or so with a realistic starting bid. The $1.00 no reserve was a great strategy when times were normal, or as normal as they ever are on eBay.
I listed 8 items last night and so far two have bids. That's good for me lately and expecially recently with the AFA fiasco.
I will never participate in that half baked idea and thought my auctions would suffer for it.
Right now--feeling a bit more confident that it is what I am selling, offering my usual service and no handling charges on shipping that is going to see me through this newest eBay mess.
posted on September 18, 2001 08:43:58 AM"You would THINK that (if ebay's motives were altruistic, as they claim they are) that the lawyers and the money people who invented this scam would at least be concerned about the appearance of using this unspeakable tragedy to their advantage."
No, I wouldn't. Anyone who's been paying attention to the way eBay has dealt with its sellers (at least for the last 3 years) knows what they think of us. They think our patriotic fervor will blind us. They think we can be shamed into going along with this digusting parody of true charity...to prove we love our country.
posted on September 18, 2001 08:56:41 AM
Part of me wants to believe that ebay jumped into this without thinking. But the other part of me can only see the corporate greed behind it all.
Each day I click on "search" dozens of times. Last night each time I went there the first thing I saw was the icon for the AFA auctions and I was reminded of the greed.
I want to keep bidding and buying. I want to think that everything will be okay in the end. I want to help my fellow sellers by putting money in their pockets. But I don't want to contribute to ebay's pockets when I have such a sick feeling about the reasons why they have done things this way.
Bush is talking. He just mentioned ebay and wants to encourage online bidding.
posted on September 18, 2001 08:57:50 AM
On top of EVERYTHING else that's wrong here the money goest to United Way, easily my least favorite charity. Bleccch!
It's not enough, apparently, to donate my $25 widjit to my favorite charity. That charity would turn around and sell the widjit for $5 and it would eventually find its way back onto eBay in a for-profit auction, probably.
It's not enough, apparently, to donate my $25 widjit to any of the established charities currently operating on eBay (who, themselves, must now compete with AFA auctions and are at a greater relative disadvantage then the rest of us since they're competing more head-to-head then we). That charity would sell the item on eBay for, say, $15 and presumably give the money to NYC.
It's not enough, apparently, to donate my $25 widjit to United Way to sell itself on eBay. Apparently this monstrosity of an organization wants no part of selling $25 widjits.
It's not enough, apparently, to donate $25 myself to charity. eBay has not suggested we participate directly, only that we join with them.
No, what I am to do apparently is go through the rigamarole of selling my $25 myself, after creating the listing, ending the auction, sending the EOA, sending the item, following up with feedback, etc (and probably receiving a $15 bid for it, which is filtered through the United Way hierarchy till a small amount finds its way to NYC).
If eBay wanted to really make a difference they'd take one of those empty wings of their corporate headquarters, turn it into a big 'AFA auction site', let us mail our items into them there and let their staff (on their time?) do the listings. The eBayers would receive valuable hands-on experience in how to put up auctions, deal with emails, deal with angry customers, packing a package, standing in line at the PO, etc.
I have always maintained that the only reason eBay is able to exist is because millions of hardworking small businesspeople around the world are willing to work for less than minimum wage. If we paid ourselves a regular salary for our time on eBay sales we'd all operate in the red. Similarly eBay (or UW) cannot hope to sell millions of items for charity at a profit, so they turn to us instead.
posted on September 18, 2001 09:00:50 AM
OHHH NO!!!!!!!!
I just heard our President praising eBay for trying to help!!
eBay should be ashamed!!!
Has anyone contacted the Media about the REAL Story?
posted on September 18, 2001 09:50:28 AM
I just searched through lp's with AFA on them and these people are all asking very high shipping fees. One was $6.00 for 1 lp which can be mailed for under $2.00.
I think most of them believe they can make money off shipping fees, do something that will help, and not pay any fees!
I wonder what everyone is going to think when they find out they have to pay for shipping?
I emailed a couple but haven't heard back yet. I wanted to know if they thought they would be getting the $6.00 for the shipping.
posted on September 18, 2001 09:55:42 AM
"*Auction for America listings use a special version of eBay Online Payments by Billpoint to ensure all funds go to the charity and to give the seller a charitable donation receipt." (quoted from the ebay announcement board)
The seller gets the deduction on HIS tax return, NOT EBAY. Per IRS rules, the donor is allowed to claim the retail value of the item...the donor is NOT restricted to his original cost of the item. If you put up an item that cost you $2 and it sells for $100 you get to take a charitable deduction for $100 not $2. Proof of retail value is easy as we have our records of the amount the item brought at auction.
"eBay Online Payments, VISA, MasterCard, Discover, Wells Fargo and First Data Merchandising Services have waived all their normal processing fees in support of this initiative. This is unprecedented for the credit card industry and enables all eBay Online Payments fees to be waived. All proceeds are going to the charity without the normal processing fees. The charity also does not have the expense of processing checks, money orders or other individual payments." (quoted from the announcement board)
"eBay will contribute all listing fees and final value fees, which will be credited back to the seller's account. Sellers can purchase optional features for their Auction for America listings. These optional fees will not be credited to the seller's account, but will be donated by eBay to the charities." (quoted from the announcement board)
"United Way & The New York Community Trust have established The September 11th Fund. Contributions will be used to help with immediate & longer-term needs of victims, their families and affected communities. 100% of contributions go to beneficiaries." (quoted from the "September 11 Fund" storefront ebay page...user id unitedwayseptember11fund)
In this case, those who normally do not contribute to the United Way because United Way does not contribute 100% of the donation to the individual charities can be assured that 100% of what they donate WILL go to the victims of this horrible tragedy.
"May a seller donate only the profits from a sale?
No. The final price of the item will be charged to the buyer and forwarded to the designated charity. Sellers who wish to donate only profits could do a normal auction on eBay, and then donate any proceeds via the "Donate Cash" service."
If covering the shipping would be financially difficult for a seller, the seller CAN hold an auction for charity and donate the portion of the auction he wishes to.
posted on September 18, 2001 10:00:32 AM
Isn't it special? We can pay the shipping charges, and they pay nothing! AND they get all the credit. I urge you all to donate DIRECTLY to the Red Cross or one of the other legitimate charities set up to help the victims and rescue workers. There are many websites with these links. There is absolutely NO REASON anyone needs to use ebay's self serving promotion to donate funds. Meg and Pierre rank right up there with the people who printed tee shirts with that horrific photograph of a person plumeting to their death from tower #1. Shame on them.
