posted on September 18, 2001 03:36:11 PM new
In light of the extraodinary circumstances, count me among those who'd rather be considered a plucked plum than a sour prune.
posted on September 18, 2001 03:42:42 PM new
It's sad to have your (or anyone else's position) so misdefined as a few want to misdefine the people like me who abhor this program, and the way it was executed... We're NOT fascists, we're NOT here to bicker, we're NOT here because we "hate" eBay or any other poster who disagrees with us, we're here because of a deep moral distaste for WHAT WE BELIEVE eBay is doing to profit on the blood of 5000+ people, just like the people who expressed outrage here over the instant slew of WTC auctions were. I have seen NO ONE who opposes this (in our opinion, sorry, I think I can safely speak for the INTENTIONS of those who oppose this) travesty of a program has said to those who support it that they are morally bankrupt because they do, that they are fascists, that they whine, and are "unpatriotic,"
or imply that they are not doing their part because of their view of this. I wish the reverse was true, and WE were treated like we should be, as people who are expressing moral outrage based on what we see as FACT.
[ edited by GreedBay on Sep 18, 2001 03:45 PM ]
posted on September 18, 2001 03:50:15 PM new
dear fountainhouse--eBay is using you and your heartfelt emotions at this time.
Please donate directly to the charity of your choice.
This eBay Billpoint melding is only going to do a plus for eBay and Billpoint. We little sellers in the small scheme of things are going to be signed up for a program we really didn't want, but wanted to do the right thing.
Ebay and Billpoint are going to be laughing all the way to the bank.
They are the worst grave robbers I have seen in a long long time.
posted on September 18, 2001 04:01:29 PM new
Meg said, " It is our goal that no one benefit from the extraordinary events of September 11" right after the tragedy.
posted on September 18, 2001 04:03:48 PM new
Just my thoughts from a different Continent that has lost very large numbers in this disaster. I am very happy to sell on AFA and meet the shipping costs, but cannot do so as only folks in USA & Canada can join Billpoint. eBay makes many comments on its Community, but that Community only extends to USA & Canada!
http://www.wtcfund.org.uk
posted on September 18, 2001 04:27:06 PM new"It wouldn't have mattered what program ebay came up with --
some people would have found fault with it.
I COULDN'T DISAGREE MORE WITH THAT STATEMENT.
Had eBay dipped into their OWN pockets AS WELL AS asking their sellers to contribute, and made this a JOINT VENTURE between the Auction and its users, no one would begrudge them all the publicity and tax benefits this promotion is bringing.
BUT THEY DIDN'T, AND THAT'S THE SALT BEING RUBBED INTO THE WOUND HERE.
1) eBay could have made this an Auction-wide donation drive and the charity listings INTERSPERSED with all other listings (NOT exclusively searchable), so that ALL items would have received bidder attention, AND.....
2) eBay could have provided a way for the seller to create a listing with a box checked saying 10% or 20% or 50% or 100% of the proceeds would go to The Fund---allowing him to contribute as much as he can afford, BUT NOT AUTOMATICALLY STICKING HIM WITH SHIPPING COSTS, TOO. I've seen some AFA listings that will be EXPENSIVE to ship, and I don't believe the sellers are aware that they're expected to pick up that tab.
3) eBay could have earmarked 10% or 20% or 50% or 100% of ALL LISTING FEES and/or ALL FVFs to The Fund, enabling all the sellers who can't afford to give away their merchandise AND pay shipping on it a way to contribute, too. Most sellers don't have lightweight, inexpensive and/or inexpensively-shipped items to donate totally to the fund, but could list more items knowing some fees would be donated.
4) eBay could have pledged 2% or 5% or 10% or 20% or 50% matching funds for ALL USER DONATIONS, whether auctions or cash payments, up to whatever amount the company could afford.
I've suggested a couple ways in which eBay could have SACRIFICED in this promotion, as they're asking all their SELLERS to sacrifice.....and I only spent five minutes thinking about it. They've had A WEEK to think about it, and all they could come up with was another way to profit greatly at the expense of their compassionate sellers.
fountainhouse, how DARE you call us "sour prunes" for spotting a wolf in sheep's clothes and REVOLTING at the prospect. uaru was right when he said, "I feel eBay is capitalizing on the nation's sorrow."....and we must not be alone in our observations, since 3/4 of all users taking the poll have DECLINED TO PARTICIPATE IN EBAY'S SELF-SERVING SCAM.
posted on September 18, 2001 04:34:25 PM new
I am sorry but I have tried to look at both sides of this Auctions For America and I keep coming up with the same thing That this is a marketing ploy for ebay and I am sure other companies. The reason I keep coming to these conclusions is because of the media blitz on what happened. Yes, it is tragic and my heart and prayers go out to all the victims but if there wasn't such a media blitz would these companies be setting up these programs? and since we are on an ebay board I will use ebay as an example. Prior to this Terrible tragedy did ebay set up any program for lets say abused and neglected children? yes they had charity auctions run by various different groups and sellers but ebay really wasn't involved as they are involved now as far as I see No they were not, why no media surrounding it.
This is a terrible thing that happened but in my opinion it is also terrible that many children die from abuse and neglet every year as well as cancer. Where were are cheerleaders & companies for this cause or the many different other causes? are these other people that need are help any less worthy?
In my opinion I feel that it's great that there has been so much support and contributions to the victims in NY but at the same time I Feel ebay and some other companies are doing this only to get attention for themselves. Like I mentioned above where were these programs before? How come companies like ebay only do this when it's a major event or tragedy and when they can get their name in the paper or their name in the news?
[ edited by Dawna34 on Sep 18, 2001 04:45 PM ]
posted on September 18, 2001 04:37:21 PM new
AND, if eBay's initial outlay to start their Foundation was 107,000 shares of common stock, worth 50 million now, and they didn't put a penny more of stock or cash in it since they started it in 1998, AND they've only spent 2.5 million of that in 3 years (money tied DIRECTLY to the stock price, and therefore money they've made with the help of their purported COMMUNITY, US), 1 million looks a little anemic, how much would they have had to pay to get the tv commercials that they got the past 2 days first with Pataki, and then from Mr. Bush? But a million is a million, wehther it was intended to keep the dogs at bay or not...
posted on September 18, 2001 05:11:05 PM new
I agree with everyone 100% on the auctions for charity..a direct donation link would have been more acceptable and how dare they dictate Billpoint only!..I can not believe the audacity of any of it! Sounds like profiteering for publicity and dollars to me!Seperate issue but possibly connected? I put a small waving American flagg gif at the bottom of my auctions..It is a free gif. I posted it through AW....It worked fine when I first put it up....then it disappeared...I went in and looked at the html and it looked fine...I deleted it and redid it again anyway...Flag was well visable again..then a few hours later...GONE AGAIN! I read on someone elses auction that their flag "disappeared" as well...What gives with that??..could it be ebay or AW violating my American right to show patriotism of my country?? Tell me it ain't so and there is another explanation...PLEEEZE!
posted on September 18, 2001 05:19:01 PM new
Some companies do have these programs year-round. AOL-Time Warner had a program to match employee charitable giving long before this tragedy. It was a Time Warner program in place before the merger. And Time Warner has long encouraged its employees to give their time to volunteer programs.
Many, many other corporations have given millions of dollars apiece to the September 11 relief effort. eBay's own cash contribution is a quarter or less of what these corporations individually have given directly, with much less fanfare.
I think I'd feel better about this effort if eBay itself had ponied up a personal contribution approaching that of comparable behemoths in the corporate world.
As it stands, the "Auctions for America" program rings a bit hollow... a way for eBay to bluster and roar without having to dedicate that much of its own cash to the people who really need it.
posted on September 18, 2001 05:40:29 PM new
I am unsure about this AFA thing. Is it ok to put a clickable link to the Red Cross at the bottom of your auction ad? I think I would prefer that. Or would ebay pull the auction?
posted on September 18, 2001 05:50:53 PM new
I agree with most folks here. eBay has burned us so many times that they could donate a goose that lays golden eggs and I still wouldn't trust them. In our local TV news, eBay was mentioned along with the Red Cross. In our newspaper, there was a photo of Meg standing with the mayor of NY. Best advertising money eBay ever spent.
It's all so simple. Of COURSE they have to use Billpoint to collect the fees. So this tragedy has provided eBay with the means to accomplish what all their spamming sellers failed to do: Boost the Billpoint numbers.
How many people buy vs. sell at eBay? Yet eBay is placing the burden squarely on the shoulders of its sellers, even down to the shipping fee. What are they doing to facilitate donations from the buying community, which represents a much greater number?
I'm sorry if this offends your sensibilities but the bottom line is, I just don't trust eBay any more.
IRONY ALERT! eBay is phasing out its auctions. They are courting big business via storefronts. But when a PR opportunity presents itself, who does eBay lean on? Its auction sellers. They are leveraging us again. Boy, they don't miss a trick. (P.S. Auction sales are way down, but eBay stock is up. Anybody want to offer an explanation? )
Hey eBay, you want warm fuzzies? Match sellers' dollars with your own. And quit pimping your customers.
posted on September 18, 2001 05:56:14 PM new
ebay wrote "In addition, please note that Auction for America charity listings cannot be revised and you cannot add to a description after the item is listed. This may affect some third party programs that add features to the view item pages after the item is listed. We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause you."
Funny, I set up an auction just to see how this AfA thing is going to work. I've not only been able to add to the description, but I did it twice.
posted on September 18, 2001 05:58:15 PM new
well, I have been at the live chat discussion over at ebay, I am opposed to this program because of many different reasons please see my other posts but now I have another one it seems that in a way all ebay sellers are being forced to donate Why, Because from what I found out at the chat not only will your A4A auctions have the little flag logo but if you donated anything at all you will get the little logo put in your about me page if you didn't of course you don't get one. On top of that in the chat it is being encouraged that if you are a buyer or seller in an A4A auction that you leave specific A4A Feedback so other will know that you participated. I know many sellers here have already donated as much as they can I feel this is totaly unfair because if you don't donate to A4A you won't get the logo and the specific feedback making you look like a bad guy that you didn't donate even if you already have through another program. How do you feel about this???
Also I didn't see any questions getting answered about how this will effect regular auctions, (I got there a little late so if anyone was there when it was discussed please post the answer that they gave) I asked one but of course in this chat the questions were sent to someone before actually being sent into the chat room so you might say they were being censored. and my question never made it to the board
[ edited by Dawna34 on Sep 18, 2001 06:06 PM ]
[ edited by Dawna34 on Sep 18, 2001 06:08 PM ]
[ edited by Dawna34 on Sep 18, 2001 06:13 PM ]
posted on September 18, 2001 06:09:36 PM new
Katiana...your doing it right.
This is a cash contribution...you are donating the cash you would have gotten from the buyer. The buyer is getting the item.
Where you take the cash contribution will depend on if your business is incorporated or not. If not the deduction comes off your personal income tax return.
You could put the amount (or value of the item)donated under "promotions/advertising" on your business return but that wouldn't be strictly within the rules.
Don't forget that you will still be paying self-employment taxes on the revenue from these sales.
posted on September 18, 2001 06:21:17 PM new
I have a few questions, this is a long thread and I have been following it, but if I missed these answers, please forgive me.
1. What about insurance? I know seller is responsible for shipping fees, but should the seller also pay for insurance and if they don't what if it gets broken or buyer never receives it? Is there a charge back? Seller never received funds so what is there to chargeback??
2. If I sign up for Billpoint for these auctions only, can I say the buyer cannot use it for regular auctions and even if I say it what is to stop buyers from using it once Billpoint has been opened?
posted on September 18, 2001 06:34:16 PM new
Once you open a Billpoint account you need to be aware that ebay regularly changes the default setting on your auction listing. Maybe one week, maybe a month, or many months, down the road, you will wake up and see Billpoint listed on your auction listings. They've done it before. Plus, they will add Billpoint to the EOA notice that they send to the bidder and seller.
posted on September 18, 2001 06:37:31 PM new
<<What about insurance? I know seller is responsible for shipping fees, but should the seller also pay for insurance and if they don't what if it gets broken or buyer never receives it? Is there a charge back? Seller never received funds so what is there to chargeback?? >>>
That's a really good question I hope someone has the answer, I would also like to add wouldn't you also need Delivery confirmation as proof of shipping especially if the bidder doesn't receive it. Also if there is insurance involved and the claim needs to be paid out by the postal service who would receive the money? The money was supposed to go to charity but now you have a refund given by the postal service that includes the bid amount the buyer paid and the shipping amount that the seller paid???
also if the item is not insured and is broken or it isnt exactly what the bidder wanted or is not exactly as discribed (Remember even though the bidders amount is going to charity the bidder is still receiving a product and is purchasing a product the same as a regular auction)
Are you the seller responsiable for the refund?? and if the item is misrepresented or the buyer thinks is misrepresented why wouldn't they be able to charge back on a credit card used through billpoint???
posted on September 18, 2001 06:54:25 PM new
This program might change, clearly not all the issues have been worked out very precisely.
However, from what is being said,
-insurance is between buyer and seller
-no chargebacks to seller in any case, that's one of Billpoint's contributions
By common sense, the buyer would receive the money from any insurance settlement.
posted on September 18, 2001 07:01:25 PM new
Twinsoft...how is ebay putting this on the backs of the sellers?
Ebay devised a program for the community to do something for those affected by this tragedy. This program is not about ebay's donations to charity...this is about another method for the ebay members to help their fellow man.
No one is forced into participating...it is strictly voluntary. For many of us it is a good way to leverage our money so we can maximize the amount we can donate. People who buy things in the name of charity are often willing to spend more so it is very possible that the items I and others put up today will go higher than they normally would meaning we can donate a larger amount than we normally could. This is good.
For those who feel they cannot subsidize the shipping there is the option to make a cash donation instead. And nothing in this program even hints at a desire for the ebay members to only contribute through this program...everyone can contribute to whoever they desire.
For those who don't like the United Way there have been no roadblocks put in thier way to donate to the charities they desire to.
This program is for the ebay community to donate...ebay has contributed $1 million dollars and will be donating the listing fees and final value fees and waiving the billpoint fees as members of that community. We have no idea if ebay the corporation has donated...they very well might have. We also have no way to tell if Meg, Pierre or other higher ups at ebay have personally donated...they may well have.
We also don't have a moral right to judge them as to whether they or ebay the corporation have or have not donated anything. That is none of our business.
I keep thinking of all the threads over the past week about god and christianity...and then I read the threads today about this program and all I can do is shake my head and shed a few tears. It is so sad to see how some can try so hard to destroy something that has the ability to help allieviate some of the tremendous suffering that has happened this past week and will continue to occur for quite some time to come.
I keep thinking of all those on the boards the last week who were shocked that people would question our president in times such as this or who "weren't pulling together for the common good"...and then I see posts such as these today.
There have been thousands of lives lost, many many more thousands have been directly affected because those who lost their lives were mother, father, sister, brother, husband, wife, aunt, uncle, best friend, cousins, neighbors, classmates, of those many many thousands of others.
No matter what the motives, no matter how flawed the ebay program is...the fact is, if it can raise the goal of $100 million dollars many people will be helped. But to come on these boards and to try and undermine that goal is so sad because if that money isn't raised there will be that much less money available to help those in need.
Yes, people can donate in other ways...and I bet many of those who are listing these charity auctions HAVE and WILL CONTINUE to also donate privately. But will they be able to cover the amount this program will raise?
I don't care if some have such a distrust of ebay that they don't think ebay can do anything without a selfish motive....the good this program can do is to important to worry about that right now. Why not wait until after the 100 days are over to express your disdain for ebay? Why not sit back, bite our tongues for a while, and pray that ebay not only meets the goal set but meets it 5 times over.
There will be plenty of time later to rip ebay a new one. For now why not make our main objective be getting help for those who need it in any way we can (short of doing something illegal)?
posted on September 18, 2001 07:19:51 PM new
Amy, I'm sorry but I'm not going to debate this with you. If you don't know the answers, then you've failed to read the 170+ posts in this thread.
The issue isn't eBay's donations (or lack thereof) or their organizing a drive. It's about eBay using this tragedy for shameless self-promotion.
This latest bit about Billpoint and icons identifying who didn't contribute (and who DIDN'T JOIN BILLPOINT) just tears it. I will join Billpoint, run a few charity auctions and then close my BP account.
I was right at the center of the Loma Prieta earthquake back in '82. I am acutely aware of what a blessing those donations are. eBay can kiss my Aunt Fanny.
posted on September 18, 2001 07:32:13 PM new
I won't address the tortured and twisted logic that a few posters and eBay itself have used to justify this sham. To the people who just want to help by using it, and are saying just that, without branding anyone who opposes this as Mephistopheles, good luck, I hope you raise a bundle, I wish there was another way you could do it. There's plenty of other ways for me, and apparently many others. I've used them a lot in the past week. To everyone who has a little doubt as to eBay's motives and mode of execution, I'm going to post the following articles. I personally contacted 2 of the firms (I excluded ebay, of course), asking them for clarification of eBay's take on it's finances vis-a-vis this program, and whether they actually talked to eBay spokespeople. They both responded, saying that they did indeed talk to a spokesperson from eBay's investor relations department that they wouldn't name, and both clarified that (as the first article indicates) ebay believes that this program will positively offset any revenue drop from the effects on retail of the disaster. Draw your own conclusions as to whether the exact mode of execution of the program, and eBay's thoughts on meeting their previously-announced Q3 goal of 11 cents earnings per share, and therefore bolstering the stock price, are related or not, or WERE related when this program was being devised...
Oh yeah, and I forgot to add one extremely interesting point... One of these orgs doing these articles said (unsolicited) that eBay contacted THEM, they didn't contact eBay ("When eBay called us"- if true, another good indication (at least to me) of what's on eBay's mind...
____________________________________________
By Jennifer Waters & Bambi Francisco, CBS.MarketWatch.com
Last Update: 3:10 PM ET Sept. 18, 2001
Auctioneer EBay, which lost 10 percent Monday, was on the comeback trail, gaining 1.3 percent to $50.02. The online auction firm reiterated its comfort with the Thomson Financial/First Call consensus of 11 cents a share for the third quarter. EBay expects that the impact of the terrorist attacks on the U.S. will balance out with the results of the "Auction for America" fundraiser for victims and their families of the Sept. 11 tragedy. EBay will report third-quarter results Oct. 18.
______________________________________________________________________
eBay Gains on Outlook
By TSC Staff
9/18/01 9:26 AM ET
Online auction house eBay (EBAY:Nasdaq) was up 2.2% in preopen Instinet trading after the company said it is comfortable with third-quarter estimates.
The current Thomson Financial/First Call consensus estimates call for earnings of 11 cents per share and revenue of $185 million.
eBay said its outlook includes the effect of the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon as well as the company's "Auction for America'' charity initiative.
_____________________________________________________________________
eBay Affirms Third Quarter 2001 Consensus Estimates
SAN JOSE, Calif., Sept. 18 /PRNewswire/ -- eBay today affirmed that it is comfortable with current First Call consensus revenue and EPS estimates for the third quarter of 2001, which call for EPS of $0.11 on $185 million in net revenues. This update includes both the general business impact relating to the tragic events of September 11, as well as the potential Q3-01 impact resulting from eBay's announced "Auction for America" charity initiative.
eBay will announce Q3-01 financial results on October 18, after market close.
_____________________________________________________________________
[ edited by GreedBay on Sep 18, 2001 07:38 PM ]
posted on September 18, 2001 07:41:21 PM new
No Jeanyu I am not suggesting you accept billpoint or participate in this program. I respect your right to have philosophical differences about this program and respect your right to not participate, for whatever reason you choose.
What I don't think you or others should be doing right now is publically questioning the motives of ebay because the public questioning, especially in the manner it has been done on this board today. The public attempt to undermine this program won't hurt ebay but it damn well WILL hurt those who would be the benificiaries of this money.
Sometimes it is better to look to the ends of an action and not to the means. In this case the ends means many more will be helped than might otherwise be. So what if the means is one that may help a business prosper?
If ebay's behavior is so egregious they will be seen for what they are...it doesn't take undermining the good deed to bring the wrath of public opinion down on them...it will happen.
Twin...i have read every single post in this thread and the posts in many other threads too. I stick by my position that the ripping apart of ebay can be put on the back burner for awhile...until this program ends. After that everyone who wants to can shred ebay into teeny tiny pieces.
Unless the true agenda here is to make ebay fail at reaching the goal of $100 million. If that is what the posts here are trying to accomplish....well, all I can say is it is a sad day when the well being of your fellow man cannot be put above your petty desire to see ebay "get it".
(by the way Twin I was in the middle of the Northridge earthquake....and that fact has no more bearing on this than the fact that you were in the middle of the Loma Pietra one)
posted on September 18, 2001 07:50:50 PM new
Wait (boy, am I gonna get warned, suspended, or whatever by the mods for this), so someone respects my or anyone else's right to have philosophical differences with something (and a lot of people have what can be called a lot MORE than just philosophical differences with AFA, they think the program is morally repugnant), but they DON'T respect my right to express that philosophical difference? They want to tell me or anyone else what I should say or not? Sounds suspiciously like (fill in the blank).
posted on September 18, 2001 07:53:38 PM new
There was a blurb in the PR Newswire story (the Press release issued by ebay, of course), that the ebay Foundation is kicking off the 100 million campaign with a donation of 1 million.
I have been around for a long time, pre IPO as a matter of fact. I remember reading about Pierre setting up the ebay Foundation and to my knowledge it was and is funded with ebay stock from inception.
So from inception ebay issued stock to it's Foundation to fund it. Over time it and has sold some, issued more, had it split, etc.. The 1 million is not out of corporate coffers, that is profits. The 1 million is from paper that ebay issued to the Foundation ,and the money it distributes is from the sale of the stock that it created.
This isn't to say that I am not turning my nose up at a million dollars for the cause....I just want to make sure no one loses sight of the fact that any money or profits from eBay has no any relationship to anything in this magnanimous program.
Something else I don't get....in the verbiage of ebay's Press Release about how wonderful it is, there is a statement that EBAY was approached by the Mayor of NYC and Gov of New York to help. Anyone know what this is about?? I could have sworn I read on ebay that ebay approached the Mayor and Gov with this program.
If this is true we will never know if ebay would have done ANYTHING on its own, (other than list addresses for "members" to send contributions), if it was not approached by the Mayor of NYC and Gov of NY state.
I saw that there was to a live "chat' on eBay today with one or two of the VP's about A4A. Did anyone stop by read what these guys had to say?
Cynical about the motives of ebay in any circumstance? ...you bet I am. Like I said I have been around for a long time.....
[ edited by smw on Sep 18, 2001 07:55 PM ]
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- if true, another good indication (at least to me) of what's on eBay's mind...