posted on October 31, 2001 02:49:30 PM
The two small claims suits I have observed... The first thing the judge did was verify the other person had been properly served.
posted on December 1, 2001 09:57:51 AM
Well, here we go again. We were served with papers for this case. Perhaps served is not the proper word, the person that delivered the legal documents placed it on our doormat, or near the door-we assume. Unfortunately, we had a Santa Ana Wind condition that morning and my husband found the document in the bushes. Had it been windier we would not have known about the case and the document would have been in the neighbors yard.
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It seems strange that they should sue us for shipping and E-Bay Fees when these funds were all paid out to others. I think that you should have to sit down with a counsel of some kind, (court provided) to assure the system that you are sueing the right person. Since the majority of the fees were given to the shipper, why not sue them? The Buyers have a copy of the Bill of Lading, which was given to them when they refused the Armoire.
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We have to go to northern CA for this case. I believe this to be unreasonable because the shipper is in this area and could be my witness. This would require a "declaration" instead. Witnesses always have more impact.
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It is strange that my husband said that this situation was over with and he didn't expect to hear anything from these people again. He found the document in the bushes two days later.
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I promised that I would keep you all updated as to what is going on. Thanks again. D
[ edited by daleeric on Dec 1, 2001 10:01 AM ]
posted on December 1, 2001 10:05:07 AM
OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!! I cannot beleive this I was really, really hoping, for your sakes, that I would never hear about this again!!!!!!! You poor people, being totally harassed and whatnot by some jerk who can't follow through on a committment. Or who can't understand that he is responsible for at the very least, NOT keeping his wife from following through on her committments.
I know nothing about this stuff, but I do hope you have contacted an attorney by now, and I would sue that guys a$$ for your transportation back and forth to whereever it is you have to go, and everything ele you can think off to get him for. Hopefully, the judge will be hispanic
posted on December 1, 2001 10:35:46 AM
Is this a small claims suit? If so, I would find out what proper procedure is for serving the claim.
Usually, there are a few ways, certified mail or paying a law enforcement official, ie: sheriff to serve the papers personally.
I can't believe that leaving them on your door step is an acceptable means.
If the proper way to serve is as I stated, I would totally ignore the summons. After all, as you said, had there been a stronger wind, you would have never known the papers even existed.
Since they paid you for the shipping fees and the ebay fees came out of your pocket, they have no one else to sue but you for those fees.
[ edited by toollady on Dec 1, 2001 10:37 AM ]
posted on December 1, 2001 10:44:48 AM
Unbelievable! Do you have a lawyer? When do you have to go? Please let us know so that we can keep you in our thoughts & prayers. Just curious, where is the armoire now? Were you able to re-sell it, or do you have to wait until this is over?
posted on December 1, 2001 11:03:26 AM
I'm so sorry you're having to endure this!
While you were probably NOT served properly, ignoring the paperwork is perilous and will do you no good in the end. Call the court and ask for specifics on what constitutes proper service. Usually it is certified mail or delivery by a person over 18 not related to the case, or a deputy who is paid for this service.
The key to personal service is that the papers have to be handed to a responsible adult at the proper address. "Responsible" can mean one of the actual litigants, or a person who lives there and is "responsible" for accepting mail and deliveries.
Leaving the paperwork on the doorstep does not normally constitute proper service, but rather than take my word for it, call the court of jurisdiction to make sure.
I've taken several nonpaying clients to small claims court, won, and collected my money, and I've always used the certified mail routine for delivery. I'm pretty sure just leaving the papers outside your home doesn't satisfy the court.
posted on December 1, 2001 11:19:09 AM
We did speak to an attorney and he said that it would not be worth our while to escalate the case to a regular civil case. He didn't see anything that we did wrong. He said proper service is to present the docs to a person 18 years of age or older. We could contest the location of the case and the service which we might do. Not to respond might result in a judgement against us. Internet sales are new to the law so, the clerk thought the venue was correct for us to go up there. But, since our witnesses are in our area that leaves us at a disadvantage. It certainly will not hurt us to contest the venue and the service.
I contacted the NAACP to see if they might help in the discrimination aspect, so we will see about that. It is an idea.
The Shipping Manager said that the E-Bay Buyer was on the guys the minute they walked thru the door and never gave them a chance to assemble the piece or even deliver it. He is certain it is 100% race related; the manager is not Hispanic. He has also been in the biz for a number of years. I heard they had a similar incident in San Francisco recently.
[ edited by daleeric on Dec 1, 2001 11:23 AM ]
posted on December 1, 2001 12:56:07 PM
Why don't you try to settle this ?
YOU ARE RIGHT ,HE IS WRONG{\
That said time for pragmatism see if you can't settle it and move on It's not going to go away and you can easily spend more than the disputed amount on lawyers (with no garantee of success) , Travel ect ect
Add to this the aggrevation and the fact that this has been weighing on you for what 8 months now ?
Life's to short pay him what he wants and move on ....I would...
Good luck to ya which ever way you go.
spock here......
Live long and Prosper
posted on December 1, 2001 01:07:33 PM
we are in texas and every week,hundreds of mexicans come to look for jobs,some will even approach us and ask if we will exchange their pesos for dollars.
they came from all over and they speak very little english and have little skills.
some sign up with day labor sites and just wait to see if any one will hire them to do labor work such as cleaning yards and moving furniture.
most people know better not to let them perform tasks which require communications and skills and expensive delicate items,assembling antique armoire would be one of them.
your buyer husband must have bad experience with spanish speaking workers and just does not want to deal with them.
it is racist but when your pocket books has taken a hit and likely will take another hit if you let them assemble this armoir,then you just do not want to go through it,altho there is a more diplomatic way of handling this.
i think your moving company should bear some responsibility of not projecting an image of competent workers who can communciate well with customers.
posted on December 1, 2001 02:46:35 PM
The delivery team does communicate well with customers. I have gotten a good number of compliments on the shippers delivery teams. When they pick up the items here they documents everything well, are easily understandable with no accent. My clients have said the "delivery team was great, if I were you I would definately use them again."
Business isn't good enough on E-Bay to pay this guy off. If he wins then I believe we should all pack it in. The only thing that we have changed is that we do not offer assembly thru the shipper anymore. We thought the liability was too great. We arrange for the delivery of the item, if the client requests our help. But assembly is an arrangement they make direct with the shipper from that transaction on.
I still don't believe that I am the correct person to sue. If most of the money was given to the shipper, I believe they are the party to go after. If you buy a tie at Macy's and then scream and drop the bag when a person of race hands it to you, is Macy's at fault? Should Macy's be required to teach you how to tie the item around your neck? Or tie the tie for you? I think it is an unreasonable request. According to CA law we are required to "tranfer and deliver" which we did. If they refuse to accept the item, it does not represent a sale and the ownership reverts back to the seller. That is almost a direct quote from CA Commercial Codes. Receiving the item, whether there is assembly or not, is just as important as payment in the transfer of ownership.
posted on December 1, 2001 09:11:42 PM
The service was improper and the venue is improper. However, you will have to appear or risk a default judgement against you. At that time you can ask that the case be dismissed and refiled with the proper court. You should immediately contact the small claims advisor of the court you have been summoned to and see if he can help. He will be a local attorney in the judicial district of the court and he is paid by the court. I've been through several of these cases, some very similar to yours. I was in the moving and storage business for almost 40 years and I've dealt with many racist customers during that period of time. It's never pretty and you will have to be aggressive to handle this guy. Don't overlook the possibility of a countersuit and if this transportation both picked up and delivered wholly within the state of California, don't overlook the opportunity to get advise on the discrimination aspect of the case from the California Public Utilities Commission. Above all, make absolutely certain that the judge fully understands that this character is a racist and his actions were driven by his prejudice.
The light at the end of the tunnel will turn out to be an oncoming train.
posted on December 2, 2001 06:43:43 PM
That is a great suggestion. I will contact the Public Utilities Commission and see if they can assist in any way. I contacted the NAACP to see if they might help but they seem extremely busy. Perhaps it has to be just the right kind of case for publicity purposes.
That is the reason why I would hate to give in to this guy. He really needs someone to stand up to him. Perhaps it will be my last chance to stand up to the fifth grade bully. I can't say that I did very well in fifth grade with that issue.
The second high bidder was also interested but was too busy to pick up the piece from another local state. The price she offered was around the same.
I have an opportunity to sell the Armoire for $1200 less than my original price. All the person offered was $1800 as opposed to my $3000 sale with these racist buyers earlier in the year. It is a fantastic piece, but I am tempted to take the offer. We have held on the the piece for six months and now that the economy has taken a hit, it may be the best price out there. Do you think I could countersue for the $1200 since that is a legitimate business loss?
posted on December 2, 2001 06:53:41 PM
i would just sell it at a lower price and move on,the economy is getting worse,and worst.
did you see all the ebay items ending with no bids/??miles long!!
posted on December 3, 2001 06:53:15 AM
Just ignore "stopwhining". She used to post the same racist comments under her old id of "snowydays" until she was suspended. Any thread is a good excuse for her to trot out the same old excuses for her hatred of hispanics, those she calls "mexicans". Her ignorance would be laughable if it wasn't so pathetic.
posted on December 3, 2001 08:41:41 AM
Yes Stopwhining is not worth paying attention to. Another canidate for the IGNORE list. E-bay sales for me are doing great and if you try and relist soon it is an excellent time to do so with x-mas. You probably want to list it soon or it will end to close to x-mas to be delivered. I have 30 auctions end everyday and it has been over 2 weeks since I had even one end without a bid. Lots of luck and hope you never run into this again. As a side note I have found most "mexicans" to be very hard working and respectable people and to refer to them as a group because of a bad expereince with an indivisual is ridiculous. If we treated all people like stopwhining the same because of the way he or she acts then how far down the ladder would that put them ?
posted on December 3, 2001 10:39:55 AM
I thought "stopwhining" was "wowwow", boy some people do get around.
Anyway daleeric, I certainly hope this situation resolves itself in your favor. This jerk needs to get the full force of the scales of justice dropped on his bigoted head. JMHO
posted on December 3, 2001 10:46:34 AM
You might want to hang onto the item until after the court date. Who knows, maybe your inability to sell the item may have some weight in the case.
posted on December 4, 2001 09:17:27 PM
Thanks for your good wishes everyone. I greatly appreciate it.
I believe the court date is in mid-December. Somewhere around the 19th, I believe.
We had three items listed which ended on Sunday and nothing sold. I got an offer to sell a dressing table for $200 after the fact. I wish I could buy the item for that price. I don't think that antiques are doing too well in this economy. Economists say we are on the road to recovery and things should pick up by next year, first quarter. I hope they are right.
I must say that I found stopwhinings comments annoying. She makes it sound like the shipper is standing at the California Mexico Border with a "help wanted" sign. I wouldn't be so upset about the situation if it was not so insulting to these guys. I certainly would not use the shipper again if I found their performance to be poor. They are many shippers to choose from these days. An big E-Bay seller recommended them initially and have found them to be consistantly good.
[ edited by daleeric on Dec 4, 2001 09:23 PM ]
posted on December 13, 2001 12:28:24 PM
According to the instructions on the back of the court documents, you can petition the court to move the case to a different city. I just sent a certified letter to the court to change the venue of the case to our area. The witnesses are in my area, so I thought it was worth a try. I will let you know what happens.
I wish all of you very Merry Xmas and a happy and prosperous New Year!
posted on December 14, 2001 10:16:45 AM
snowydays is not my id,i was never suspended on any board.
i re read my post,i dont understand why it should be annoying ,it is as objective as it can be,down here in texas we do have many immigrants coming from south of the border,and they speak very little english and most do not have good skills u.s employers are looking for.
big engineering firms use contractors and these contractors have these workers making 5 dollars an hour and require close supervision,some do go to day labor places and look for jobs.
just because some folks would not want them to handle tasks which require communication skills in english or delicate items which require specific handling skills mean those people are racists.
it is a judgment call,no different like asking a child to carry a piece of 18th c meissen figuirine around??
or asking some one who just learned how to repair car to fix your mercedes or ferrari??
when i first arrived here,i went swimming in a pool and i was assured that our maintenance staff tested the water in the pool every day and do whatever to keep it clean,so it is safe to dive in.well,i ended up with a bad case of infection and so far has costed me a big medical bill.
your bidder's husband could have some bad experience with certain workers and it could have been an expensive lesson.
posted on December 14, 2001 10:38:36 AM
author said-
The delivery team does communicate well with customers. I have gotten a good number of compliments on the shippers delivery teams. When they pick up the items here they documents everything well, are easily understandable with no accent. My clients have said the "delivery team was great, if I were you I would definately use them again."
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you have no control on every assignment the shipper takes on,who they dispatch on assignment,all it takes is one incident !!
i sell new items no chip or crack and mint in box from factory,most customers are happy but i just received the lowest rating from one unhappy customer-chip on surface of the box,dirty and filthy inside,cheap greeting card and ugly gift wrapping,it was an embarrassment when i presented this gift to my sister in law!!!
i can go on and on and feel sorry for myself and defend myself and tell all of you it is not my fault ,but i will just take the lump and refund in full.
the bottom line is -we just have to make enough on the whole to eat losses,you cannot please everyone all the time,thats the nature of retail business,many of you have been in the business longer,i am sure you have run into cases like that.
posted on December 14, 2001 02:35:34 PM
daleeric said.
I must say that I found stopwhinings comments annoying. She makes it sound like the shipper is standing at the California Mexico Border with a "help wanted" sign. I wouldn't be so upset about the situation if it was not so insulting to these guys//////////////////////////
please do not put words in my mouth,i dont know your shipper nor do i know how it recruits workers??
i am just relating what is happening down here in the south where thousands of workers come to this city looking for job.
this is not meant to be insult,it is just a pragmatic statement -find the right person for the right job.
whatever your shipper does,i am sure he does it for good reasons,to keep most of his customers happy,you just run into an exception.
there was a time customers dont want to see workers with long hair,beard and earrings or women wear pantsuits,etc etc.
posted on December 15, 2001 06:57:02 AM
daleeric said.
The Buyer stated that the drivers stated they did not feel confident and did not know how to assemble the Armoire. So the buyer refused the item, which our atty say is "unreasonable refusal." Any normal person would have accepted delivery and assembled the piece later. My husband even offered to assemble the piece himself and drive to N. California that weekend; they also refused that. My conscience is clear. It is too bad that E-Bay doesn't do a psych. profile before letting people join.
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posted on December 27, 2001 07:07:58 PM
Stopwhining, I think that the husband did not want the Armoire at all and the wife did. It is unfortunate that the husband didn't level with me and took it out on the delivery people. I always believed that was the underlying reason. Perhaps the husband is completely unaware of it himself, who knows. I could have sold the Armoire to the next high bidder shortly after the auction, however, after a month the high bidder made other arrangements and the sale was lost. It is best to strike while the iron is hot. If they win the auction, they stop looking because they are committed.
At any rate, refusing an item that you paid for with shipping costs is extremely odd behavior. Our clients e-mail and telephone to find out when their piece will be delivered. They are usually very eager for delivery. The furniture usually completes the decor of a room or they have been looking for a similar piece for a long time and have not been able to find it in their city.
Nothing from the court yet. I will let you know what happens. Happy New Year all! Cheers!!!!
posted on December 28, 2001 08:26:38 PM
Well, despite my best efforts to change the venue of the trial, I will have to go up to Northern California. The judge ruled that the venue is correct. With this venue, I will not be able to have any witnesses since both of our businesses are in Southern California. The best that I can do is a declaration, however, witnesses have more impact. No luck with this situation it seems.
I just sold the Armoire for $900 less than the previous price. It is loads of fun to be in business.
If as an E-Bay seller someone sues you in Washington, DC, we would have to fly out there for the trial or get a judgement against your business. How many of us have done business out of state? I can say that is the majority of our business.
