posted on February 16, 2001 02:18:52 AM new
AG You compared use to mall's, Wal-mart & K-mart like that made some kind of since?? (NOT) We sell items on the interent there is a big difference. We need the sites and the sites need use but we all need bidders! You say all sites should charge I do not disagree with sites charging they need to make money to stay up and running. But to charge to list when they have no bidder's that is cutting your own neck. The fair thing to do is charge FVF so everone can make money. To list 200 items and have only 3 or 4 close with a bid then have 1 or 2 of them be non-paying bidders dont work! Yahoo did say they would never charge fee's then they turned around and said supprise in 6 days we are charging dont put them in a good light with me. We both believe auction sites have to make money you say give it to them and cross your fingers I say give it to them when my item sells. I still would like to know how long you have worked for Yahoooo.
posted on February 16, 2001 05:03:37 AM new
Joanne,
Yes! That's the one. Are they still operating? I haven't heard anything about them in years.
As far as sites charging fees to stay afloat, they must charge. If a site like BidBay, for
example only charges FVF right now, how much money would they take in?
Let's see, I have a bid for a "whopping" .99. That would give them .10 tops. Trust me, not many people have many cash bids and if they do, they're not very high. So maybe they'd take in $100 for the month. Can they operate on that? Their advertisers are wishy-washy. One made a promise they didn't keep.
If they charged listing fees, it would cut down on the thousands of recipe auctions, the thousands of card auctions, etc. Who would pay even .10 to list a recipe that they charge .25 for? Where would the FVF come in on that kind of sale?
Featured auction and other fees like that? Would YOU pay for something like that if you knew you wouldn't have any lookers? I don't think so. Heck, I don't even pay for that on ebay! LOL!
How can they charge FVF on BidBay Buck items?
We don't even know the value of them.
Now for other sites, fees may be fine, but in all honesty, sites like BidBay can't charge any type of fee right now until they get rid of certain, let's say, "things."
When they do start charging, we'll all see the numbers drop. They know this, the users know this. I posed that question several times and the answers were "if they charge, I'm gone." Gone where? To another free site until they start charging?
People work very hard to build reputations on auction sites and when they jump around, they have to start all over again. Everyone knows how hard it is to get that first 10 positives. It seems to take forever, doesn't it?
Am I still on track here? It's early and I can't even remember what the original post was
To compare commerce with communism is laughable, but everyone has their right to an opinion. That's what makes this country different. To compare killing kids to not getting a raise, oh my goodness. LOL!
Wonder what everyone will do when they start charging Internet taxes or following North Carolina's proposed law - make each seller have an auctioneer's license to sell online.
Sites won't have to worry about fees anymore because there will be a limited number of sellers and an even smaller number of buyers. We can say Ta Ta to Internet auctions.
All in all what Auctiongaurd said in the initial post is true. No one can deny that's what's happening. All you have to do is look at history, it always repeats itself and unfortunately, we lost a pretty nice site recently because the fees came all too late.
posted on February 16, 2001 06:00:19 AM new
auroranorth said: china shot their own kids, were they doing anything diferent than the police here did to veterans and workers asking for a living wage in the 20's
Perhaps you should leave your off the wall political comments to another board. This thread is about online auctions. As a history buff, a Veteran, and a regular old American, I find your commentary offensive.
[ edited by auctiongaurd on Feb 16, 2001 06:01 AM ]
posted on February 17, 2001 02:38:56 AM new
I totally disagree with the concept of listing fees, and think that FVF's are fair for items that sell.
The argument that listing fees are necessary to get rid of the 'clutter' is absolutely unproductive. One of the ideals of an auction site is to provide as wide a range of products to as wide an audience as possible. Someone has said that 'cheap' items belong at flea markets. After all, all those .25 baseball cards are cluttering up the categories! Better off getting 'em at the flea market! But what about the millions of people in this country and others who live in areas that are sparsely populated and where 'flea markets' are either too rare or too distant? A market is needed for these people.
In reality the antidote for 'junk' is the Post Office. And Time. It costs money to send these items and time to pack them.
I personally think selling anything for below $2.00 is charity or the sign of a newbie or a shipping charge scammer. But I woyld certainly not try to discourage the sale of items that are at least real. I would cancel all the nonsense recipe, and Get-Rich-Quick ads however since these are beyond junk.
With the cost of hard drives these days, the extra space taken by low cost ads is miniscule as an operational charge. The only real cost factor is traffic, which is dependent on site hits. And not dependant on whether site has 1000 Renoirs or a billion Beanie Babies. If it attracts people, costs will increase for customer support, servers, and bandwidth. But it is these same factors that attract advertisers to cover these costs.
Personally I think it's deiversity that attracts customers. And some of what some people may consider 'junk' others will consider treasure. Two of my 'box lot' items are now in museum exhibitions. Would never had been feasible to sell at a listing fee based auction. Others serve a purpose. For example, as part of yet another 'box lot' I was saddled with a box of toys. Sold it for $5. The person who bought it was happy for a bargain, and I was happy to get half my money back on the lot. Et Cetera.
If we make auctions only available for high rollers who can afford premium prices on rare items then the basic user base will shrivel up as the masses will go back to the flea markets, those in remote areas will do without, and all the 'other' auctions will shrivel up and die since eBay is the only real place for these people. For brand new items, listing fees can be a killer because profit margins are likely to be slight. Unless we want to send the people interested in 'new' items to QVC or Wal-Mart there has to be a minimal cost market for these items also.
In short, if we make the market too 'elite' we all lose. The current system is better, even if it means putting up with bogus recipe auctions.
posted on February 17, 2001 08:04:38 AM new
Auctiongaurd,
Your thought are correct but your reasoning is not. Auction sites are a commodity, except for ebay. Whether I buy gas here or down the street it doesn't make a difference for me. The same is true for on-line auction sites. I really don't care where I sell... because it's only a few mouse clicks away. This isn't Wal-Mart or a mall.
Auction sites need to make money. They can do this by advertising, charging feature fees, and perhaps even final fees once the item sells. But remember that on-line auction sites don't really offer anything unique or special. I think Yahoo! would now agree. If they piss off the sellers then they pretty much go out of business. THIS IS THE BUSINESS MODEL and they must have known it before they started their business.
posted on February 17, 2001 10:04:29 AM new
Auctiongaurd,
I think I may have to agree with you on one point anyway.
"You want the site to advertise all over the web, TV, and radio so that your items have large exposure, but you don't want to pay any fees."
I am seeing many threads here and elsewhere where sellers are asking what the auction is going to do to bring the buyers, and when, and how fast.
People, you are the ones who will be depositing the checks, it is up to you to get the buyers to your business. Yahoo was a portal, so they had some ready made traffic that could be diverted fairly easily. Even with that portal trafic they were never able to overtake Ebay.
Anyhow I try to keep this short.
If you can find a site where they will let you list your auctions for free, and respond to sellers requests for features and upgrades. A site that has real people ansewr you and help when you have a problem. Then you better find a way to get your customers over there.
The auction site you are at may be in the business of selling advertising, but they are not in the business of selling your products for you.
If you don't bring your customers and others to your site, someone else will be glad to bring them to theirs.
posted on February 17, 2001 10:36:36 AM new
hey i agree with auroranorth and telwil on these auction sites and their fees and I think that one of the other guys is either not selling anything or just want to complain about other people who are free auction sites are for people to start up their businesses I am just starting out and I think the idea of a free auction is a good idea and i dont mind paying for the things that sell but if they dont sell we shouldnt have to pay for them charged for them and I think that everybody will agree with me on this and I think that we as people can sell anything on the auctions that we want if I want to sell recipes or baseball cards or even gum wrappers that is up to me and the auction site, not others who only want to sell expensive stuff so if everyone would quit complaining and get back to selling their items we could all make some money including the auction sites we would be glad to pay fees to the auction sites if they are fair about it we have no problem with that but we do have a problem with paying for auction sites that we list things that we know sell and get no bids on we dont feel that we should pay for these auctions so for the people that are complaining about the free auctions need to stop complaining and get to selling their items most people are willing to pay to the one who is complaining I will trade my recipes and baseball cards and gum wrappers for what ever it is that you sell or are they not good enough to sell on the auction sites
posted on February 17, 2001 11:05:25 AM new
my point on the comparison was that absolute power corrupts absolutly, and that is how the bigger sites have acted towards sellers with arrogance. that many feel a good name for the next corporate venture would be egreed.com is hardly a secret. personally I pay out well over a thousand dollars a month to one of the sites. I have never sold a recipe but I learned a long time ago that each person has a right to their own life as long as it does not infringe upon the rights of others. My remarks about what powerful people in this country did to the veterans that marched on washington in the 1920's are truthful and a good comparison with what China did. they are also a good example of how power is often weilded unfairly. I noticed that no one addressed the 300% increase arbitrarily imposed by amazon.My point was that many of the fee increases at big sites are far and above the pay increases by the average working person in the same time period. As far as having served ones country and making their opinion valid somehow Mr. Mc veigh also served honorably does this mean his opinion should somehow out validate mine ? For the record the rich in this country pardoned the draft dodgers while my cousin came home in a box
so Yes I don't trust or care for the ruling elite one bit, and I am opposed to any stunt
they pull to take any freedom away. If that makes me radical then I'm in good company
Benjamin Franklin said that ''we must now all hang together or we will all hang seperatly'' had we lost the revolutionary war they would have huung Washington Jefferson and the rest as traitors. And this does have a lot to do with interent fees and sales taxes and other scams the rich try to take hard earned peoples money with.
For a business model here is one,hire an employee who does nothing all day then wants a check.this actually what has beenadvocated by a few here, None of the sellers objects to paying for performance, but we are all sick of hearing corporations plead poverty during and after a ripoff. Ebay brags about being started in a garage this kind of shoots big holes in one posters nonsense claiminng nassive investments needed to begin an internet auction venture.
posted on February 17, 2001 11:13:47 AM new
I've been to malls that have a 10% occupancy rate. My guess is that they would do almost anything within reason to get that higher.
I don't think a start-up auction site and a shopping mall are a realistic comparison. I think it is unrealistic to expect to pay nothing! I think it is also unrealistic to pay to list at a site where the sell-through ratio is very small, and where many bidders are dead beats. It's a two way street. I think if Yahoo was a viable auction site, then the 20 cent fee would be very reasonable! An item that opens at $9.99 that sells for $20 would cost you 20 cents on Yahoo, and $1.30 on Ebay - That is a huge difference. The problem is the lack of traffic on Yahoo, and lack of bids.
I agree that there are many that are only looking for a free ride. Ignore those, and focus on those who are looking for a legitimate place to sell, something to supplement Ebay in my opinion.
When Bidville starts charging (and I have no illusion that they won't, otherwise they will not survive)I am hoping that they institute a FVF (even as high as 10% would work for me) and/or a low listing fee with relists. I think even a 5 cent listing fee + small FVF would eliminate a lot of items that will never sell from being listed. Even if Yahoo went to 5 cents, a few free relists plus a 5% FVF, they would probably have many more listings than they do now.
posted on February 17, 2001 11:19:04 AM new
Snakebait,
Oh your poor cat! LOL!
You said:"I personally think selling anything for below $2.00 is charity or the sign of a newbie or a shipping charge scammer."
I sell many items below $2.00 as there are buyers out there that can't always afford to spend more. I'm not a newbie and I'm not a shipping charge scammer. I charge actual shipping and have been known to refund if I accidently overestimate or my scale differs from the post office.
There is one organization on ebay who starts all their auctions at .99 once a month.They have quite alot of members. The sales generated from these auctions are unreal at times. I've seen items go for hundreds of dollars during these events. Sometimes, people start their auctions at either .99 or less - some .01. There's a method to this madness. Our items are worth only what people are willing to pay.
They had a special event one month a couple of years ago. You could set any price as long as it ended with a .99. I had one item I couldn't even give away for .99. I put it up for this event and stuck a $19.99 price on it. It sold!
If you start a widget for .01 and it goes to $500 (which I've seen happen over the years) .. that's great. If you start one for .99 and it sells for .99, well that means the item is not worth more to the bidder. But the penny item certainly was!
posted on February 17, 2001 01:09:31 PM new
auroranorth, it seems that your main gripe is that ebay has infringed upon your rights, when in fact they have done no such thing. Your rights are just as intacked as they were before ebay raised their prices. If you don't like them then you have the RIGHT to not use them.
posted on February 17, 2001 02:12:21 PM new
I would be in sad shape if the big auction sites were the main focus of my things I was unhappy with, Actually The whole point of the forum is supposed to be other online auctions. Ebay has the right to do whatever they want. and they don't seem to be too bad at doing it. The suggestions that others are offering here are basically that they are willing to pay for successful listings. I think that this is fair. Others here seem to think that money should be forked over for the privilage of association. great if this works for them they should go to a football game. What will happen is I won't decide how this story plays out. Time and the market will, if the new auctions like pootah, epeier, auctionweiser, 1234gone, bidville, online auction auction arms and others survive and thrive it will be a clear and present warning to the corporate types that the consumers have won. For my part I will do any and everything to see to it that the small guy has a chance. And I turn rush limbaugh off when I do it.
posted on February 18, 2001 02:42:33 AM new
mtnmama,
Kitty is still on thin ice, and my nephew's python is getting hungry
The problem I have with the dollar auctions is that it drives prices on many items way below wholesale, and the time involved with listing, packing, shipping, customer support puts your hourly wages slightly below that of a Laotian peasant.
It takes an average of between 30 and 45 minutes per item for the home based mail order business. This is not my number, but that acquired from a prior researcher (name forgotten). May not seem like that much, but it all adds up. Remember that the mail order business is one of the most labor intensive. Unlike other businesses, where once it is stocked on a shelf the customer does all the work.
Assume you sell 80 $1 items, and you are at the fast end of the spectrum. You have made 80 dollars for roughly 40 hours work, or $2 an hour. At those wages the government would classify you as a hobby and not a business.
Now if you were running dutch auctions, and sold 80 of the same item, that could be shipped First Class in an envelope, you might be able to do better on those numbers, maybe doubling it to $4 per hour. Anmd dont forget that merchandise does not come free. It must be purchased.
My advice is never to list an item for less than the absolute minimum you would be happy to settle for. I have seen items listed for a dollar 'just to get the bidding going' sell for a dollar. And the same item may skyrocket the next day. Remember that 'giving stuff away' bodes ill for us all. It has driven the prices of common collectables through the floor. On most you can be lucky to get 10% of book value on a good day. This is from the attic cleaning mentality that says "Lets put up Grandmas old dishes that are hand signed by Josiah Wedgewood for a dollar and watch them climb to 10000!" Yeah, right. Last I looked, Federal Period sterling silver was going for less than the silver content. In short, the el cheapo auctions hurt us all.
Yet paradoxically, I would not want to see them end. Theres nothing wrong with a dollar auction for items worth around that price. If they are willing to pay a dollar, plus the cost of shipping for a box of tea bags then no harm is done to the market, or the seller. I do realize that for most this is a means of getting 'pocket change' so that the cost of labor does not really factor in. But for those in the antique/collectible business these auctions have become a better place to buy than sell.
posted on February 18, 2001 09:22:17 AM new
<<<<<<<<"I have seen items listed for a dollar 'just to get the bidding going' sell for a dollar. And the same item may skyrocket the next day">>>>>>>>
Snakebait, I am one of those posting items for $1.00 to "get the bidding going"
And it is working, at least in my case. While I have had one item close at $1.00 on POOTAH, on Bidville, I currently have 23 items with bids, so far, nothing has closed at $1.00. These are collectibles, (I sell mostly glass and china), and do have value higher than $1.00. These items I had sitting for a while, not getting the minimum I wanted. What I usually do, because space is not unlimited, is take these items to a live absolute auction. There I must pay a seller's premium of 20% and usually don't do bad considering that when I bought these items, I already made my money off the stuff in the lots that did sell.
Now, listing for 30 days at $1.00 no reserve minimum, I am not only selling some of these for more than I would net at the live auction, but people are also checking my other items and doing a little bidding, also buying 'Take it' prices at about 50% above my minimum.
The original idea was to try to get people interested in looking a little deeper, but I am having enough success at this point, I believe the $1.00 N/R auctions will be around my site for a while. One note, If the auction gets to within a day or two of closing with no bids, I will close it and take the item to the auction.
BTW, I currently have 81 auctions open. I do not run 400-500 like some I see posting here. Consider that when I say that I currently have 23 with bids. I'd say that 28% activity rate, (approx.), is not bad. people are looking at my stuff and some items have near 100 page hits.
Please people, don't look down your noses at what others are doing, if you think it is so undervalued, bid on it, I won't mind if you steal a bargain off me.
Every one is working toward different objectives and finding some things work better for them than others. Do not be afraid of trying, and keep plugging, tell everyone where to find your auctions. I use the same ID on Bidville as here if you want to check what I am doing. While you are there, if you get the urge, leave a bid or two.
posted on February 18, 2001 10:37:47 AM new
auctiongaurd,
I expect a site to be free until they build up enough traffic and attract enough bidders to justify charging fees. Then I expect the fees to be reasonable so that it is worth my time to continue listing with them.
posted on February 18, 2001 03:44:38 PM new
I just notices AG & AG2 came on line at about the same time. I do not agree with you but you have a right to say what you feel. I am a small seller, dont what that big inventor. The free fee sites are good sites most of them any way and should they charge I will pay for what they help me sell but not just to list on their site and relist 30 times because there are no bidders to speek of. Well its time to move on have Bidville listing to do even the small guy has to work lol.
posted on February 18, 2001 06:13:01 PM new
Telwil. If you are accusing me of being auctiongaurd you are way off base and possibly in violation of the CG's.
I am who I am. Auctiongallery2 here and on eBay. I was auctongallery on BidBay.
I speak my mind and do so openly and do not do so under any other ID's with the exception of eBay's boards.
And the only reason I use a posting ID there is because some people get so upset about differing opinions they take it to extreme measures like auction interference.
And if you go back and look at posts over the last year here at AW you will notice I at one time was a big supporter of a free site that I now relish in bringing their dirty laundry to light.
Before you accuse me or anyone ever again you should do a little bit more ivestigating.
The first question you should have asked yourself would have give you your answer.
Why would I post under two ID's with one being connected directly to my eBay account?
If I were to be worried about people finding out who I am why would I be so open in the public?
posted on February 18, 2001 11:48:44 PM new
jimhhow,
I see at least a method to the madness of your dollar auctions. Second tier stuff from those box lots that have a devil of a time selling in the 'real' world. Even some items with 'name brands' like McCoy and Homer Laughlin can only get pennies on the dollar at times. And forget about Hull or unsigned pieces. You put it up for a dollar and see if it starts to creep up. If it doesnt you yank it before some sniper grabs it for a buck or so. Smart move.
Clearly not all dollar auctions end at a dollar. But I will fully admit to being marksman enough to hunt for and nail items I want way below wholesale from those foolish enough to have set their opening bids too low. Who can resist a bargain? But the net result of that mentality is that I have seen a net depreciation of about 75% on my inventory. To the point where I would not dream of putting up my more valuable items.
I will save them for 'real' high echelon markets. I put my middle spectrum material up on eBay and if it doesn't sell after one or at the most two relistings, off it goes to the free auction sites. The 'lower' end stuff like antique books I have a tendency now to put directly to the free sites. For some reason this market, once good on eBay is now poor. And with the warm weather coming, most of the 'middle' stuff will also be going off to market.
However, there are exceptions, and there are some items that if unusual enough to strike people's fancy that they will bid up to ridiculuos prices. But just don't expect this every day. And it is the 'every day' type prices where us dealers derive the bulk of our incomes.
I too have sold items for a dollar. And I felt they were worth a dollar. But I also felt it was more of an act of charity than good business sense since I hate waste and throwing something with intrinsic value into the dumpster is something that I consider revolting. It should be noted that I do not have this reservation about true 'junk' though. Something damaged beyond all reasonable repair, or totally lacking in any artistic or functional merit gets cheerfully chucked.
The point is that unless we dealers as a group begin to price wisely, we will be pricing ourselves out of the online marketplace. The process has already begun.
posted on February 19, 2001 12:02:09 AM new
AG2 I did not say you and AG are the same you did (I dont no.) I thought it was nice that you both came in at about the same time and think the same way on different issues! Sorry if you miss understood. Have a open mind and think about what people say. Now back to the discusion.
posted on February 19, 2001 07:43:54 AM new
Telwil my apologies if that is not what you meant but you stated this:
"I just notices AG & AG2 came on line at about the same time."
And then you didn't go on to explain that statement which had nothing to do with the topic at hand.
We are dealing with written word here and cannot hear tone, inflection, or see expressions in faces etc and cannot truly understand the full context of a message unless it is fully apparent in the words used.
That would give them .10 tops. Trust me, not many people have many cash bids and if they do, they're not very high. So maybe they'd take in $100 for the month. Can they operate on that? Their advertisers are wishy-washy. One made a promise they didn't keep.