posted on March 19, 2002 09:09:53 AM
"You gotta be kidding. Adding CC transaction fee is against eBay and Paypal policy, and is against the law."
I'm trying to keep ignorance spreading like wildfire. Adding CC transaction is not against the law. However, adding CC transaction fee to only people who use CC is against the law. Ebay guides sellers not to add fees to the handling but says you "should" add it to the start price, "to avoid confusion." So if its against ebay's policy of adding those fees, why do they say you "should" add it to the start price?
posted on March 19, 2002 09:20:42 AM"Adding CC transaction fee is against eBay and Paypal policy, and is against the law."
Yes, it is against PP & eBay. Not necessarily the law. I contacted both Mastercard and Visa over a year ago and unless they changed their ways of doing things within the year (entirely possible) they said that as far as they were concerned I as a user of a 3rd party payment service did not have a merchange account AND I could charge a service fee provided it was in agreement with the terms of service of the 3rd party payment services.
Key words here being "provided it was in agreement" which it is not.
I just wish that ALL payment services that don't allow their "fee" to be passed on would just come out and state that's their decision and not keep saying it's against most state laws to pass a service fee on to a customer using a cc. If they don't know that isn't an entirely true statement, than they need to study up on the rules/regs of the cc industry.
Using their own reason as to "why"we can't charge a fee to our buyers(ie: it's against the law), then they (as the merchant account holder) shouldn't be able to charge me a fee for using their service!
posted on March 19, 2002 09:24:13 AM
From Ebay's help page:
"The seller charged more for shipping than the actual cost. Is that allowed?
The seller is responsible for determining the shipping and handling charges on their auctions..."
Hmm, interesting, it doesn't say ebay is responsible for determining shipping and handling costs." Since I'm responsible for determining the shipping and handling, I'm going to add a paypal fee to the handling.
posted on March 19, 2002 09:25:22 AM
I have begun to realize some interesting things about this surcharge and credit card thing....
As a PayPal user, I do not see the credit card, nor do I get its number. I rely on a seperate company(PayPal) to do that. They take the credit card not I, they signed the Credit card Clearinghouse agreement, not I. I have no way or ability to determine the validity of any credit credit. And PayPal, if you read so many of the other stories here and in the news, is not very good at turning down stolen credit card and invlid ones. They take the money and run. It might not be illegal according to state laws for me to charge surcharges when someone else uses a PayPal. PayPal is not a credit card, credit cards are not paypal. The buyer gives the credit card to PayPal, PayPal sends me cash. I am dealing in Cash. If some company charges me to send cash, it is just good business practice (not sense)to pass those costs on to the customer. Consider the money order, western Union and such. Those fees are paid directly by the customer. With Checks, the buyer pays bank fees. Adding a surcharge is just indirectly paying those fees.
That being said, it is within PayPal's and eBay's ability to state policy against the use of surcharges. However, their "suggestion" of adding it to the initial price is very suspect. To eliminate confusion...yeah right. I'm no dummy and I can do the calculations if it is clearly stated. The real reason...Higher starting prices and higher final prices means more fees for eBay. Higher ending fees mean highers fees for PayPal. Fees on Fees on Fees until they are rich.
Remember, taking PayPal in no way means you takes credit cards, PayPal is. You did not sign any agreement with any Credit Card Clearing Company(PayPal is not one).
I figure if someone actually looks a little deeper into Credit and Banking laws you may find out a few interesting tidits that eBay and PayPal don't want you to know.
posted on March 19, 2002 09:28:24 AM
Sulyn, you're right, it's not against the law in all states, and it is not a federal law. The Federal Law was abolished. It is a California law though where paypal and ebay resides.
Additionally, it is against E-Bay’s regulations and California state law for businesses to charge a separate and distinct extra fee to consumers for their use of a payment service like Visa or PayPal (though not for a business to accurately price this business cost into their final merchandise price).
posted on March 19, 2002 09:37:24 AM
mlecher, excellent post. I didn't think of that. It is not against the law therefore to add a Paypal fee to just buyers who use Paypal.
posted on March 19, 2002 09:37:31 AM
I've been "pondering"...I suppose one could word their TOS to get the PP/BP fees without violating either's TOS by saying:
Shipping $6.00 + Processing Fee $1.00 + 3% of final bid. If payment is made by money order, cashier's check, personal check or cash (at your own risk), you may DEDUCT the Processing Fee.
Don't think you'd get much bidding, but you could charge for PP/BP and be within those companies TOS.
hard time typing today...
[ edited by sulyn1950 on Mar 19, 2002 09:39 AM ]
posted on March 19, 2002 09:48:28 AM"(though not for a business to accurately price this business cost into their final merchandise price)."
Now, doesn't that sound like they are saying it's OK to "price this cost into the final merchandise price" by adding a fee???
Notice they did not say COST, they said PRICE. I personally interpret a Cost as before the sale(opening bid price), and PRICE as after sale(ending price).
I know, I'm splitting hairs here, but it's a slooooow day. If it can be done on CAN/MAY I can do it on COST/PRICE...
posted on March 19, 2002 09:52:54 AM
slabholder, care to elaborate? Is it laughable that I add some important information that many people come here to learn about? However, where is your intelligent information? Haven't read one piece of info from you yet!
posted on March 19, 2002 10:03:35 AM
Well, when I do sell something (not too often lately) I need more than a $1 to cover PP fees (everyone lately has used PP).
I suppose I could say simply please add 3% PROCESSING FEE and then add the diddie about deducting the PF if paying by money order, ect.
Or, I could try and add it into my opening bid and then state in the add that I give a 3% DISCOUNT to anyone using money order, cashier's check, or personal check?????
I know there are ways around it, but I personally just like the straightforward approach.
Hey dudes and dudetts, if you choose to make payment with a service that charges me for your convenience--I'm passing it on....
Pleeeeze don't say it's just a "cost of doing business". I want to scream everytime someone says that. In business you get ALL your cost back (one way or another) or you WON'T be in "business" for long! Why do you think PayPal and Billpoint charge a fee????
posted on March 19, 2002 10:22:10 AM
Ok, so "may" means "to have permission, " which in turn means "to consent" which means "to agree" which means "to accept." Two more degrees will get you to Kevin Bacon.
So if we toss that troublesome "NOT" into the mix, it means that ebay does NOT accept sellers using a surcharge, does NOT agree to it, and does NOT consent to it. If one side of the two parties in a deal do not agree then there is no consent, agreement, acceptance, and since ebay makes the rules for its site, no permission granted to do so.
"One may not agree to handling charges, but pay it anyway because you know it's standard practice."
I think you're talking two different issues here. The buyer may be philosophically opposed to handling fees but still pay them anyway. It doesn't matter what his opinion is, once he bids he agrees to the terms, including handling fees.
"Ebay saying You may not charge buyers additional fee, only means they don't agree to it. Doesn't say they will take action."
It doesn't state that they'll take action (in fact they go out of their way to give suggestions on how to hide the fee), but the fact is that they do, reinforcing the notion that their "may not" statement on their policy page is a rule rather than a suggestion. We all know that periodically we get people posting to this board, bellyaching that ebay pulled all their auctions because they had a stated surcharge for Paypal in the text. Actions speak louder than words.
posted on March 19, 2002 10:26:20 AM
slabholder, care to elaborate? Is it laughable that I add some important information that many people come here to learn about? However, where is your intelligent information? Haven't read one piece of info from you yet!
Quickdraw, I've read your intellectual writings. Please tell us what is so intelligent about you looking up the word may, in your dictionary?
posted on March 19, 2002 10:36:35 AM
Others have accurately stated that it is Paypal's policy not to allow seller's to pass their fees along, not any law.
My solution, although it's not a very good one was this: Drop your Paypal account if you are already a business account. They will threaten you that you can "never rerurn." They are bluffing. Then start up an new account as a regular free account (maybe they will let you downgrade, I don't know. I dropped them for 6 months and only started up again when somebody sent me Paypal money and i got an email from them).
Then only use it when it's free. This restricts you to payments from accounts that already had the money in their Paypal balance or where they fund it with a bank wire transfer. In other words, No credit card payments. If you keep this to under $100 a month then there are no fees involved. I reserve this for people who won't sign up with C2it and are foreign and have a Paypal account and request using it, and a few special cases. That's all Paypal is good for in my opinion. The company is unregulated, unfair, losing money and I transfer an credits i get to my bank immediately.
I know they have some cash now that they went public, but I don't trust anything they do and have nothing but horror stories to report when something goes wrong.
posted on March 19, 2002 10:49:01 AM
This is what Paypaldamon wrote in another thread.
"You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as payment. This restriction does not prevent you from imposing a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services, as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge (in other words, the handling fee for transactions paid through PayPal may not be higher than the handling fee for transactions paid through other payment methods)."
Sooo..what it comes down to is by becoming a Paypal acct holder you agree to the above statement and if you charge a surcharge you are violating Paypal's terms of service. I have no idea however what the consequences are if you are caught charging a surcharge.
MEOW
[ edited by katmommy on Mar 19, 2002 10:56 AM ]
posted on March 19, 2002 11:10:35 AM
That's the problem with the whole credit card system. Why give "discounts" for cash when the logical solution is to pass along the true costs to those who demand those services?
If it's worth it to the buyer to send payment immediately rather than go buy a money order and wait a week for it to get to the seller, then what's wrong with them paying for that service?
Paypal was a big lying chicken when that issue first came up and they incorrectly cited the unfair credit card laws to make the problem go away.
The main problem was the way they charge fees. They take a % of the whole amount sent so to pass along the fees required a little mathematics by the seller and was occasionally off by a penny or 2.
posted on March 19, 2002 11:17:54 AM
I've pondered some more....I can be a bit slooow sometimes!
I will add 3% to my start price and give a 1% discount for paying with MO or check! That way I can earn an additional 2% on each of my items that close sold!
To think...my Bus 101 instructor told me I should probably not persue a career in Corporate America!
posted on March 19, 2002 11:57:55 AM
It's all how you word it. You can't specificly add an extra charge because someone wants to pay thorough Paypal. Those are Paypal's rules. I remember a thread very similar to this a few months back..some thought that since buyer is being given the convenience paying online..he should pay the fees associated with it but then one can turn around and say since a seller has the convenience of accepting payments online..he should pay the fee associated with it.
MEOW
posted on March 19, 2002 12:05:47 PM
I personally would like to see all users charged!!!! Of course, I would expect the fees to drop by 50%. Fat chance of that happening is there?
I really think a fee should be charged to ALL users and NOT just the receivers. That fee would have to be fairly low to keep the "senders" from deciding a MO works just fine too! That way, everyone who chooses to use the service pays their fair share.
All the other services provided by PP (which I don't use) could be offered for a monthly fee just like all other 3rd party auction services do.
That way, you pay one small fee to use the send/receive service (regardless of whether your a sender or a receiver).
Then you can buy "add-ons" to your PayPal service as you want them or need them.
Now, exactly when and where will their annual stockholder's meeting be held?????
[ edited by sulyn1950 on Mar 19, 2002 12:29 PM ]
You mean a low flat rate? That might work with items under a certain $$ amount and perhaps encourage more buyers to use paypal instead of buying money orders. Lets say that a flat rate of 10 cents is charged for seller and buyer for items under $20.00..considering a money order can cost 90 cents to $1 plus the cost of a stamp, an active buyer could save a significant amount by switching to Paypal as well as the active seller with lower/flat fees.
Of course this doesnt apply for existing Paypal buyers LOL
MEOW
posted on March 19, 2002 12:38:08 PM
holdenrex, you're still hooked on that "not." If ebay does not give me the consent that does not mean a seller can't add the fee to handling, it just means they frown upon it. Big deal, they're just stating their opinion. They say they won't enforce it because "sellers are responsible for adding shipping and handling." Quote from ebay.
posted on March 19, 2002 12:41:20 PM
slabholder, intelligent people look up meanings in which there is a question on exact meaning. I'm still wondering what's laughable about that.
posted on March 19, 2002 12:49:30 PM
I suppose one could just call it a "handling fee" and not elaborate and charge it to everyone. One way to make a little extra off those that don't use the payment services. It would also help you re-coup your other auction related expenses like AW or other 3rd party auction service providers.
Then, I suppose really cheap buyers (the ones who scream about that $.50 extra charged for shipping over the postage) could look for the sellers that don't use anything but plain vanilla text ads launched directly from eBay's single item listing page, iPIX (1 photo only) and NO 3rd party payment services, EXACT POSTAGE ONLY shipping rates and that way they know they are not paying for all the extra "bells-n-whistles" that should be part of the sellers "cost of doing business" and not passed on to them.
katmommy-after some more pondering (I've just about done all of that I can do for one day-aren't ya'll glad)I realized that PayPal as the merchant account holder might NOT be able to charge a fee for any user using a credit card, but I guess they could charge those that use e-checks/or pay from balances in their accounts??? Then again, by making it a service everyone pays a fee for, then maybe they could get around that pesky MA agreement/TOS? I have thought for a long time that the laws should change concerning cc useage anyway. As pointed out already, it really makes no sense to be able to discount someone who doesn't use the card but not be able to charge the one who chooses to use the card. Talk about an industry having a STRONG LOBBY GROUP!
[ edited by sulyn1950 on Mar 19, 2002 12:58 PM ]
Dont forget other fees such as ebay listing fee and FVF. To be honest..those are my only fees..I'm one of those who use plain old ebay template with one picture usually. I do not need anything fancy and I really dont think it effects how many bids I get anyway. I add enough to shipping/handling to cover those fees which is never over $1.00 in my case ( I sell mostly videos and lower priced items ). Perhaps sellers can say something like "Winning bidder pays XXX for shipping and 3% of final price for packing/handling". I guess you can cover most of your bases that way. I guess it comes down to being creative and try to get most of your fees covered so you are not losing money in the long run.
MEOW
