posted on August 11, 2002 04:22:10 PM new
>>Well if the business in question near monopolizes an industry there are rules about how greedy they may be. <<
Agreed, but is Ebay trying to destroy the business of other auction sites? Are there anti-trust issues with regards to how Ebay conducts business?
I think not. Particularly since companies like Amazon, MSN.Com and Yahoo all have the ability to give ebay a run for their money if they really put their minds to it.
"If you were to perform a detailed financial analysis with respect to the cost of e-bay's fees, vs. the value of the traffic they drive to your auction listings, in terms of the marketing costs involved in generating that traffic yourself, I think you'd find that e-bay's fees are rather cheap. "
>>Sorry, I would have to drastically agree with you on that one. I think most others would too. Especially now that Ebay doesn't allow your listings to generate sales on your own website or help build up your own business Brand.<<
Do you agree or disagree? I suspect it's a typo, so I'll say you'll disagree.
Since Ebay has roughly 90% of the Auction Market, you can disagree all you want, but it's just not true. There isn't an auction site on the Internet that can drive more bidders to your auctions, it's a mathematical fact.
There isn't an auction site out there that has more traffic then Ebay, and while certain products might do better on niche sites, in general, your listings will always be in front of more eye balls then on Ebay.
So your listings can't drive traffic to your web site, why should they? You're paying for an auction listing, not advertising for your Business on Ebay! AND, allowing people to use Auction Listings to drive traffic to their own sites would be counterproductive to Ebay method of generating revenue would it not?
PLUS, how many of us that list on e-bay have links to an online storefront embedded in the auction? I know I do. So the issue of no links isn't as serious as you make it out to be.
All that being said, you missed the point of my previous statement:
"If you were to perform a detailed financial analysis with respect to the cost of e-bay's fees, vs. the value of the traffic they drive to your auction listings, in terms of the marketing costs involved in generating that traffic yourself, I think you'd find that e-bay's fees are rather cheap. "
My point is that the cost of generating Ebay like traffic to your auction listing, if it were on your own web site, would be more then the cost of the listing and FV fees.
Example:
I have a produt that I sell on Ebay on a fairly regular basis, the listing fees are about 3.50, FV is 7.50 and I pocket about $40.00, so I spend $11 to make $40.00 -- typically I need 70 page views to get a bid, and the auction typically ends with about 120 over a five day period.
Let's say I decide to just sell the product on my own web site, let's say the overall cost for all of my marketing activities is $1 CPM and my overall click through rate is 5% (Which would be rather high) -- out of those people that come to my site, let's say another 5% look at the product in question --meaning I need 2,400 people to come to my site to give this product the same exposure it gets on e-bay.
Every $1 I spend brings 50 people to my web site, meaning that I need to spend $48.00 to give my product the same exposure it got on Ebay, meaning that my costs are now $37 higher, and now I'm making a $3 profit, instead of a $40.00 one.
Thing is, in real life, advertising bringing you a 5% CTR is going to cost more then $1 CPM, a lot more.
So what was this about Ebay not being cost effective, perhaps some seller's need to start making business based arguments instead of emotional ones.
>>At the risk of sounding like Spam our site will be able to offer 600 live listings at any one point during a month for only $24.95.<<
>>How could we offer this if it cost more?
*Chuckles*
Just because you're offering it, doesn't mean that it's profitable or a better buy then what someone else is buying, you're leaving out a lot of variables:
Are you making a similar Investment to generate the same kind of traffic that Ebay does?
Will my listings be exposed to as many bidders as they will on Ebay?
Will my sell through rate be as high, will be my final sale price be as high, in short, will I make as much money?
I doubt it.
Something is a sound business decision because it benefits the business in terms of profits, good will, networking, branding, etc.
Not just because it's cheaper.
My Business decisions are rarely based on emotion, but are instead based on various analyses I conduct before making a decision. I evaluate auction sites NOT on the cost of listing items, but rather on the number of bids my product will probably get & the final price of the item VS. the listing price.
You could list my product for a little over 4 cents, saving me $3.46 in listing fees & I suspect your FV fee is cheaper too.
But does that cheaper cost, make up for the fact that your site doesn't get the traffic ebay does, won't bring as many bids (If any) and won't make me as much money?
>>How much is an ebay listing worth vs it's cost? I think it's vastly overpriced especially with the non-linking policy. (unless you're a big mega corp!)<<
See Above.
"The point was that we as sellers are IRRELEVANT to the long term viability of e-bay's businessm model, while the BUYERS, however, are relevant"
>>I strongly agree with that one too my friend. <<
Again, do you Agree or Disgree?
>>People NEED to buy things. They can't unless there is a place to buy them!
Now don't get me wrong. It's a balancing act. If you have sellers with no action your market won't survive.
The trick is finding that sweetspot where bidders and sellers both get a fair shake. I think Ebay had that and lost it.<<
As long as Sellers can make a profit on Ebay, or rather as long as there are people willing to spend money, Ebay won't go anywhere, which nullifies your thesis.
I actually think Amazon will blow past Ebay in a few years unless they make more "improvments." (Love ya Jeff!)
"I thought we were debating business model viability, in fact, aren't you the one who claims you can prove E-bay's model isn't viable long term? "
>>Yup. Won't do it here though as AW does have some links to Ebay.<<
So, Ebay isn't run by Tony Soprano, if you truly have something constructive to say, I feel you would say without using it as ruse to drive people to your web site.
"I don't see the point. "
>>Just because you don't see something doesn't mean it isn't there.<<
Don't blame me for your suspect Business sense, simple math is against your thesis...let alone market economics. If seller's make money via venue A, they won't leave until Venue B is more profitable and Buyers leave Venue A for Venue B. Even if the former happens, they'll still just sell at both Venue A & B, why throw money away?
Anyway, this dicussion ends here until you can start throwing some sort of detailed analysis behind your pontifications, and just use this as platform to promote your own auction site. I was actually hoping you had something of merit to say besides emotional arguments, which seem to be the type of arguments most people on this board make.
Hint: Just because an business decision feels good emotionally, doesn't mean it will make you more money.
posted on August 11, 2002 08:02:42 PM new
Hi Pretegra,
"Are there anti-trust issues with regards to how Ebay conducts business?"
I'm not an expert on Anti-trust. However I do know that just because there are other companies that can perhaps take on Ebay doesn't mean that there are not any possible Anti-trust issues?
If the Paypal acquisition goes through I do think there may be an opportunity for unfair advantages to Ebay in our industry.
"Since Ebay has roughly 90% of the Auction Market, you can disagree all you want, but it's just not true. There isn't an auction site on the Internet that can drive more bidders to your auctions, it's a mathematical fact."
Yes, I disagreed with your point. If Ebay does have 90% of the Auction Industry doesn't that support control of said industry?
Ebay's ability to drive numbers has been steadily decreasing. If you take out the numbers for large mega corps I think you will see that the core industry of original Ebay sellers has declined drastically.
"There isn't an auction site on the Internet that can drive more bidders to your auctions"
I'd bet a dollar to your dime that you are connected or work for Ebay. That was a very very cagey statement. Are you in any fashion affiliated to Ebay other than being a seller or bidder?
Ebay now only drives traffic to your "auction" on their site. We are now no more than sharecroppers there to grow the ebay cotton fields. This is a fundamental problem for most sellers unless they are Sears!
"PLUS, how many of us that list on e-bay have links to an online storefront embedded in the auction? I know I do. So the issue of no links isn't as serious as you make it out to be."
Erm, isn't that against Ebay rules? Yes there are some that sneak a link in but it is possible to have your auctions shut down for having such links if for a sales purpose.
" My point is that the cost of generating Ebay like traffic to your auction listing, if it were on your own web site, would be more then the cost of the listing and FV fees."
Again, even if it did cost more (which I don't think it would) it would to be for your BRAND, the traffic would be YOUR traffic. Not Ebays. How much is traffic worth? Our listing fees go to build up Ebay's brand name, not our own.
"I have a produt that I sell on Ebay on a fairly regular basis, the listing fees are about 3.50, FV is 7.50 and I pocket about $40.00, so I spend $11 to make $40.00 -- typically I need 70 page views to get a bid, and the auction typically ends with about 120 over a five day period."
Well for one thing what if your item doesn't sell right away? What if it takes 3 or 4 times to sell?
Your example certainly isn't indicative of what Ebay was in 1999 or even 2000, but what Ebay is today.
That's why we need alternatives.
"Are you making a similar Investment to generate the same kind of traffic that Ebay does?"
Per capita we will be spending much much more than Ebay does.
" Will my listings be exposed to as many bidders as they will on Ebay?"
Eventually, and again, per capita it may be much sooner than later.
"Will my sell through rate be as high, will be my final sale price be as high, in short, will I make as much money?"
Maybe not on day one, but you'd have to compare us to Ebay on day one to get a better idea of how we will be doing.
I think that at the end of year one most sellers will be very happy to be on Auctionpie.
I also think that our system is set up to support sellers.
You have to understand that Ebay is not our enemy. We are not trying to compete with Ebay. As a matter of fact we have learned from Ebay's strengths and we are going to try and avoid some of the "mistakes" they have made.
For one thing we will not be going public. I am an online seller.
I see my costs going up and my sales drifting down. I think sellers understand how to make a site work and if Ebay (or any company) won't listen to their "customers" (sellers are the real customers of these companies) instead of their stock prices, I think some sellers and buyers will seek better places. I think many are doing this already.
We want to be a safe and stable alternative. We are not trying to be number 1, 2, or 3.
Ebay and other companies are welcome to choose their paths. They have the power, they have the money and lawyers.
I'll be happy if Auctionpie gets the sellers and bidders!
"So, Ebay isn't run by Tony Soprano, if you truly have something constructive to say, I feel you would say without using it as ruse to drive people to your web site. "
I haven't used a single ruse yet. I do think Ebay has slid downhill since Ms Whitman
has taken the reigns. Sure she has made the company, the investors, and herself an awful lot of money, but I think it has been at the expense of Online Auction Sellers and bidders.
"Anyway, this dicussion ends here until you can start throwing some sort of detailed analysis behind your pontifications, and just use this as platform to promote your own auction site. I was actually hoping you had something of merit to say besides emotional arguments, which seem to be the type of arguments most people on this board make."
Well nobody is forcing you to discuss this. I don't "owe" you any such numbers.
If you were so concerned "M" then perhaps you should've taken up the debate challenge.
In this thread we can share our opinions and thoughts and that's about it.
" Hint: Just because an business decision feels good emotionally, doesn't mean it will make you more money. "
Hint back: Not all business decisions are about money....
posted on August 12, 2002 05:43:12 AM new
Hi Pretegra,
"Are there anti-trust issues with regards to how Ebay conducts business?"
>>I'm not an expert on Anti-trust. However I do know that just because there are other companies that can perhaps take on Ebay doesn't mean that there are not any possible Anti-trust issues?<<
I'm not a corporate lawyer, (yet) BUT, it is my understanding is that Anti-Trust issues arise when Company A acquires a position that is so powerful that is more or less impossible for anyone else to challenge it AND if Company A is preventing anyone from mounting said challenge in the first place.
I would think that Yahoo, MSN and Amazon.com have more then enough resources to muster said challenge. Hell, Yahoo doesn't really market it's auctions or highlight it's auctions on it's web site, a simple text link is all they provide, a link I discovered by accident and I've been visiting Yahoo for years.
>>If the Paypal acquisition goes through I do think there may be an opportunity for unfair advantages to Ebay in our industry.<<
Depends on how they handle it, one one hand Ebay will get a piece of auction transactions not occuring on their own site(s), (Which is more or less insurance against losing marketshare) but if they're not hurting those companies ability to do business (and if they're smart) actually go out of their way to help those companies do business......the "issues" will likely not show up.
"Since Ebay has roughly 90% of the Auction Market, you can disagree all you want, but it's just not true. There isn't an auction site on the Internet that can drive more bidders to your auctions, it's a mathematical fact."
>>Yes, I disagreed with your point. If Ebay does have 90% of the Auction Industry doesn't that support control of said industry? <<
Just because someone is succeeding at a far higher rate then others doesn't make them controling or malevolent, as long as they're not trying to actively hurt other companies growth prospects outside the bounds of normal competition, I don't see the problem.
>>Ebay's ability to drive numbers has been steadily decreasing. If you take out the numbers for large mega corps I think you will see that the core industry of original Ebay sellers has declined drastically.<<
*chuckles* and that's Ebay's fault, considering these factors?
-Unemployment was below levels considered Utopian in the 80s and early 90s, back in 1999/2000, it's quite a bit higher right now.
-The economy is in the proverbial trash can right, investor confidence is quite low, consumers are worried about spending money, massive lay offs, etc, etc.
-The Fad era of the net is over, simple market economics that the bubble would contract and you'd have fewer sales going to Ebay or any auction site, for reasons that have nothing to do with the wrongs (you or others feel) the site has committed.
-Buyers are undoubtedly getting smarter and more savvy, waiting around for seller's to cut their prices, being more choosy, etc.
-Market Saturation, too many people on Ebay who are all selling the same stuff, the key to success is rapidly becoming: Find a cheaper source then your competitor OR find a unique product for which little saturation exists.
You add the above up, and you probbaly a significant portion (if not all) of the factors that are currently decreasing auction sales.
It boggles my mind that people want to discuss Business Models as if it's all Ebay's fault when you don't sell something, but won't discuss other economic and market factors which are JUST as important if not more. (Particularly since buyers aren't complaining nearly as much).
I mean c'mon now, I can name third party sites where you look up products in certain categories and see page after page after page of listings with no Bids.
"There isn't an auction site on the Internet that can drive more bidders to your auctions"
>>'d bet a dollar to your dime that you are connected or work for Ebay. That was a very very cagey statement. Are you in any fashion affiliated to Ebay other than being a seller or bidder? >>
You owe me a buck, pay up.
Don't work for Ebay, never have and if I did, I would've never have participated in this discussion in the first place.
I spent approximately 4 months studying the online Auction Marketplaces/Web Sites (This after being somewhat experienced at purchasing things via online auction) before listing a single product for sale.
To me, no one out there can hold a Candle to Ebay in terms of overall site traffic and potential bidders for my auctions. Like you said, they do control 90% of the auction market. That's hard to argue against. Say what you will about Ebay's other issues, but no one has the potential to deliver more traffic -- simple math, they have 90% marketshare.
>>Ebay now only drives traffic to your "auction" on their site. We are now no more than sharecroppers there to grow the ebay cotton fields. This is a fundamental problem for most sellers unless they are Sears! <<
C'mon, please stop with the emotional arguments --- an online auction site be it yours or Ebay's, only drives traffic to your auction on their site, that's how they make business.
Your comment was just designed to be inflamatory and in the end serves no purpose.
You're can spin it anyway you want, but your site is doing the same bloody thing.
"PLUS, how many of us that list on e-bay have links to an online storefront embedded in the auction? I know I do. So the issue of no links isn't as serious as you make it out to be."
>>Erm, isn't that against Ebay rules? Yes there are some that sneak a link in but it is possible to have your auctions shut down for having such links if for a sales purpose.<<
So Ebay is going to shut down each and every Auction Works & Auction Watch auction that has a link to a storefront run by said Auction Mgt. software?
FWIW, I suspect people get away with it, because the link shows a listing of all your auctions on Ebay, as well as storefront items.
>>Again, even if it did cost more (which I don't think it would) it would to be for your BRAND, the traffic would be YOUR traffic. Not Ebays. How much is traffic worth? Our listing fees go to build up Ebay's brand name, not our own.<<
Says the woman using this forum to promote her own site.
The purpose of Ebay is to provide a venue for you to sell your products, NOT to build your Brand name. In fact, how can you build your name when you're selling on someone else's site? Building your Brand should be separate from what you do on Ebay -- Ebay should just be another sales channel that supplements other activities.
Besides, you don't really need to build up a brand to be profitable on Ebay, so who cares?
"I have a produt that I sell on Ebay on a fairly regular basis, the listing fees are about 3.50, FV is 7.50 and I pocket about $40.00, so I spend $11 to make $40.00 -- typically I need 70 page views to get a bid, and the auction typically ends with about 120 over a five day period."
>>Well for one thing what if your item doesn't sell right away? What if it takes 3 or 4 times to sell? <<
It never does & chances are, Ebay is still cheaper.
Your example certainly isn't indicative of what Ebay was in 1999 or even 2000, but what Ebay is today.
Perhaps, but in 1999 and 2000 online advertising cost about 10-30x more then what it does now. I know publishers who are currently charging $3-$5 CPMs who were charging $60-$70 CPMS back in 1999 or 2000.
My example still holds.
That's why we need alternatives.
"Are you making a similar Investment to generate the same kind of traffic that Ebay does?"
>>Per capita we will be spending much much more than Ebay does.<<
You're going to charge much more then E-bay but charge a mere fraction of the cost.......*chuckles* again that math issue coming up.
What is the Phrase "High Burn Rate" flashing through my head?
" Will my listings be exposed to as many bidders as they will on Ebay?"
>>Eventually, and again, per capita it may be much sooner than later.<<
Per Capita? There isn't any per capita, either as many bidders see my listings or they don't.
"Will my sell through rate be as high, will be my final sale price be as high, in short, will I make as much money?"
>>Maybe not on day one, but you'd have to compare us to Ebay on day one to get a better idea of how we will be doing. <<<
Why bother? If your site outperforms Ebay one day I'll have no problems switching and I'm sure the news will make it's way to me, until then......
<SNIP>
>>I also think that our system is set up to support sellers.<<
Mark my words, this is where the upstarts fail, trying to create the perfect market for sellers and focusing on the wrong side of the equation.
It's BUYERS that matter, not sellers -- as long as there are buyers, sellers can adapt to find a way to sell to them profitably.
<snip>
Save that stuff for your press releases.
"So, Ebay isn't run by Tony Soprano, if you truly have something constructive to say, I feel you would say without using it as ruse to drive people to your web site. "
>>I haven't used a single ruse yet. I do think Ebay has slid downhill since Ms Whitman
has taken the reigns. Sure she has made the company, the investors, and herself an awful lot of money, but I think it has been at the expense of Online Auction Sellers and bidders. <<
I doubt the bidders are concerned about listing fees.
This whole thread is a Spam ruse, I only responded because I thought you might have something interesting to say.
"Anyway, this dicussion ends here until you can start throwing some sort of detailed analysis behind your pontifications, and just use this as platform to promote your own auction site. I was actually hoping you had something of merit to say besides emotional arguments, which seem to be the type of arguments most people on this board make."
>>Well nobody is forcing you to discuss this. I don't "owe" you any such numbers.
If you were so concerned "M" then perhaps you should've taken up the debate challenge.<<
-Sorry I didn't want to be part of your weak attempt at drawing attention to your site.
-AND if you're going put a thesis forward, you should at least back it up instead of saying "Only if you jump through my hoops will I truly defend my thesis"
>>Hint back: Not all business decisions are about money....<<
So says the online seller who is starting her own auction site because her profits are going down.
E.g. A lot of decisions have to be about money or you won't survive.
"Depends on how they handle it, one one hand Ebay will get a piece of auction transactions not occuring on their own site(s), (Which is more or less insurance against losing marketshare) but if they're not hurting those companies ability to do business (and if they're smart) actually go out of their way to help those companies do business......the "issues" will likely not show up. "
Hogwash and hooey!
The fact that they have the option on how to handle it is enough of a threat. Right now the US government is trying to topple Saddam Hussein because of "what he's allegedly capable of doing.."
I'm not saying they're wrong. In fact I agree with that position 100% just as I feel that the merger should be prevented for some of the same reasons in a sense.
What if Ebay decides to have Paypal change its policies? Even in a minor way they can effect policy of sites that exist because they want to business in their own manner.
The fact is that Ebay will have access to numbers and trends via Paypal of sites and companies and that to me isn't fair dinkum.
"Just because someone is succeeding at a far higher rate then others doesn't make them controling or malevolent, as long as they're not trying to actively hurt other companies growth prospects outside the bounds of normal competition, I don't see the problem."
If you are not already working in some capacity or affiliation for ebay or its many companies then you sure are making a great case to get a position with them when you post that.
Ebay via acquisitions of other auction companies and services effects normal competition. Ebay has become so big that they may have scared companies like Yahoo and Amazon out of the auction biz in any serious fashion. It's a very small world you know. Today's biz enemy is tommorrow's partner and friend.
"You add the above up, and you probbaly a significant portion (if not all) of the factors that are currently decreasing auction sales. "
Every industry goes through cycles. Our industry has had some really impressive highs and now is facing lows.
It also hasn't seen saturation points yet in the general population.
I think in the next ten years companies like Ebay will become even larger. That's kind of scary to me. That's why I feel alternatives have to be created because I don't feel that we as individuals can depend on government or the business world to deal with this sort of beast!
">>'d bet a dollar to your dime that you are connected or work for Ebay. That was a very very cagey statement. Are you in any fashion affiliated to Ebay other than being a seller or bidder? >>
You owe me a buck, pay up.
Well if you can proove your point I'd be happy to. Just send me your paypal account address...
"To me, no one out there can hold a Candle to Ebay in terms of overall site traffic and potential bidders for my auctions. Like you said, they do control 90% of the auction market. That's hard to argue against. Say what you will about Ebay's other issues, but no one has the potential to deliver more traffic -- simple math, they have 90% marketshare. "
Again, I doff my hat at your clever usage of terms. You keep focusing on Auctions when we all know that Ebay is chasing after Amazon's success with fixed price sales.
As an Amazon user as well I've always been intrigued with why they don't use their Auction site more as it is much much better than Ebay's in every way.
I know for myself I'd pay the same 15% commission fee as I do with their Marketplace program if they would allow it to flourish as it once did.
"C'mon, please stop with the emotional arguments --- an online auction site be it yours or Ebay's, only drives traffic to your auction on their site, that's how they make business. "
Sorry if you feel that way. I don't think many of my arguements are "emotional".
I can't speak for any other site than my own.
Our business model is not designed to yield us the maximum amount of dollar return or profit.
We only get fees based on our subscription rates thus we are a true venue as opposed to being a "Perfect Store."
The more listings a subscriber has the more means they have to direct traffic to their own sites thus build their own businesses.
If they are happy and the buyers are happy we will be happy. We don't need to beat Ebay or have more customers than any company as it is not our goal.
"Says the woman using this forum to promote her own site"
Ow! Now who's being inflammatory? For the record I am still a male. Not a woman. And no, I am not using this thread for promotion. When we issued the challenge we did so in the places that Ebay people traffic. We basically posted a notice and it must've worked as we recieved contact from Ebay at the VP level within 24 hours.
"The purpose of Ebay is to provide a venue for you to sell your products, NOT to build your Brand name. "
I think that's smoke and mirrors. If Ebay had never allowed links from day one I would agree with you. Unfortunately this policy only came into effect in the last year or two. It is because Ebay didn't want to have business leak away from it that it has installed it. Ebay wants every single FVF it should get.
I don't have a problem with that policy in anyway. I as a seller simply prefer the way things were where we could build up our own customer base. Good sellers actually build up a following and at a minimum of 30 cents per listing deserve to benefit from their hard labor.
"You're going to charge much more then E-bay but charge a mere fraction of the cost.......*chuckles* again that math issue coming up. "
Where did that come from? Our subscription rate is less than the cost to list 100 auctiosn on Ebay? Add in the cost of FVF's and not being able to have links and I think our site is a much better deal. Especially as our traffic and user base grows.
" Mark my words, this is where the upstarts fail, trying to create the perfect market for sellers and focusing on the wrong side of the equation."
We are not trying to create the perfect Market. We are not the solution to all of the problems in our industry. We are going to be very open and honest with our users. We are going to have the same problems as ebay and other sites. How we deal with them will hopefully show the difference.
"It's BUYERS that matter, not sellers -- as long as there are buyers, sellers can adapt to find a way to sell to them profitably."
Buyers are one of the most important elements in the online sales experiance. Can't sell without them! On the other hand they can't buy without sellers...
Not to be negative but it is sellers who pay us and are our customers. Our job is to bring in the buyers. We do this by having the best sellers with the best product at the best prices in the safest fashion possible.
" This whole thread is a Spam ruse, I only responded because I thought you might have something interesting to say. "
posted on August 12, 2002 08:24:23 AM new... then you sure are making a great case to get a position with them when you post that.
Dinky, that's what you asked for, remember?
Our industry has had some really impressive highs and now is facing lows.... I think in the next ten years companies like Ebay will become even larger.
So which is it? Or do you mean that it's becoming more difficult for mom and pop sellers to deal on eBay? When I began selling on eBay, I made $250/hr. distributing an information guide. Now there are 100 sellers doing the same thing. That's not eBay's fault.
Last week I paid $20 for a camera and sold it for $250. The sales are there, if sellers can get their act together. eBay is a venue, not a "beast." The days of selling belly button lint for outrageous profits are over.
You owe me a buck, pay up.
You asked for someone to take eBay's side. Stop trying to dodge the issues.
I can't speak for any other site than my own.... We only get fees based on our subscription rates thus we are a true venue as opposed to being a "Perfect Store."
Here we go with the spam again. If you were concerned with empowering sellers, your fee structure would be based on final value fees, not listing fees (i.e., subscription).
Per capita we will be spending much much more than Ebay does.
Meaning...? eBay does national television advertising.
I really hoped we could avoid dragging the "benefits" of AuctionPie into this. Judging from the number of posters on your chat site, I'd guess I can count your beta testers on the fingers of one hand. You can't even give subscriptions away, much less sell them for $25.
Would you care to elaborate on this and disclose whom you are?
Stick to the issues. You sound paranoid and panicky.
posted on August 12, 2002 09:39:49 AM new
Twinny, should I take you seriously?
I will answer this post to you but if go psycho on me I will never again amigo.
Notice Pretegra's style. It is very polite. Let's keep things this way.
At the risk of giving you more fodder for your Auction Antics site here goes.
"So which is it? Or do you mean that it's becoming more difficult for mom and pop sellers to deal on eBay?"
I believe that Ebay's business is growing and will continue to grow while at the same time its original core user base is finding it more difficult to sell on the site.
Using our site for example there are people that are saying that we are charging to much for the monthly subscription rate while others say it is a huge bargain.
Ebay, or any company can never please every customer out there.
"Last week I paid $20 for a camera and sold it for $250. The sales are there, if sellers can get their act together. eBay is a venue, not a "beast." The days of selling belly button lint for outrageous profits are over. "
So you were the guy selling all that lint... Steve of course people still make sales on Ebay. The direction however is much changed. It is becoming less a place for eclectic and hard to find items and more of a wholesale mall.
Most venue's don't work on commission either.
"Here we go with the spam again. If you were concerned with empowering sellers, your fee structure would be based on final value fees, not listing fees (i.e., subscription)."
Now Steve this is not debate or arguement. You are pointing fingers and making accusations. You can say what you want but if you want me to answer you or debate an issue please refrain from this sort of thing.
Your statement above is of course your opinion and you are of course entitled to it. However I feel you are wrong on all counts.
" Meaning...? eBay does national television advertising. "
I think our statement speaks for itself. What point were you making?
We have pledged to continually spend 25% of our funds after site and support costs. Now and later. Do you really think Ebay (or any of the other online sites) spends or ever did spend anything close to that?
"I really hoped we could avoid dragging the "benefits" of AuctionPie into this. Judging from the number of posters on your chat site, I'd guess I can count your beta testers on the fingers of one hand. You can't even give subscriptions away, much less sell them for $25. "
Steve can you slowly start to understand why you are never taken seriously for long?
What were you hoping to accomplish by that statement?
"Stick to the issues. You sound paranoid and panicky"
Sticks and stones baby! And Steve, perhaps you could take your own advice and stick to the issues as well?
posted on August 12, 2002 07:00:03 PM new
Dinky, I can stick to the issues if you can refrain from promoting your site. When you do that, it just invites criticism and is counter-productive.
I believe that Ebay's business is growing and will continue to grow while at the same time its original core user base is finding it more difficult to sell on the site.
As I tried to point out, the "original core users" (folks who have been selling since the days of AuctionWeb) were part of a very unusual and short-lived phenomenon. Buyer demand has not kept up with the huge influx of new sellers.
Think of it in terms of gold rush days. A few miners had a big strike, but now most of the gold is gone. Unfortunately, the mother lode can't be recreated by simply digging new holes in the ground.
One of the reasons early sellers were wildly successful is that there were few sellers on board. Even "mom and pop" sellers with no sales experience could make a lot of money. But nowadays, an alternative site with few sellers is no guarantee of success. Because, as has been emphasized above, the buyers are already branded to eBay.
Most [malls] don't work on commission either.
Most malls don't bill themselves as "different," "better," or "empowering sellers." Think of it as a contingency. A site gets paid if and only if its sellers get paid. As you said yourself, it's not all about the money.
I think our statement speaks for itself. What point were you making?
I expect the point I am making is obvious. Your 25% advertising amounts to peanuts. eBay spends millions. There's no way to seriously compare the two. But if one were to compare, the peanuts would not compare favorably.
Do you really think Ebay (or any of the other online sites) spends or ever did spend anything close to that?
Please stop, I'm laughing too hard.
So you think eBay is dooming sellers. Yet you think $25 per month to list is reasonable. What do you think would be the result if eBay charged a minimum of $25 per month? I'll tell what. It would drive small sellers completely off eBay. The only ones left would be sellers who run 100 or more auctions per month.
For another auction site to set that kind of hurdle, without even delivering the sales eBay does, is something right out of the twilight zone.
posted on August 12, 2002 08:57:46 PM new
>>>USER ID: pretegra345
Date Joined: July 9, 2002 11:52:13 PM
Message Center Posts: 12
Hmmmm.....
You state that you didn't want to sign up on our site, but it looks like you signed up here (with CC verification) just so that you could post to me?
Would you care to elaborate on this and disclose whom you are?
Perhaps your other id on this site or on Otwa? OAUA?
Jamie<<<
*Laughs Hysterically - Falls out of Chair - Continues to Laugh for several Minutes*
Jaime, not to sound daft, but you have an extremely high opinion of yourself don't you? *chuckles* you don't really think that I'm Meg Whitman or some other high ranking Ebay official who decided to debate the "economies of scale challenged" do you?
Come on now, your site isn't even a competitive threat to a site like Bidz let alone Ebay, why would they go through the trouble?
Anyway, I've had a great day today and man, that just topped it off nicely.
Okay, FWIW I almost always sign e-mails and discussion board postings with the initial M, it's called Laziness.
As for your so called Background check, did you even bother to check and see if I have an auction storefront that uses my user name?
Did you check for domain names with the word "Pretegra" in it? If you did, you'd already know who I am, and that I'm in no way affiliated with Ebay.
*chuckles some more*
tell you what though, it makes you feel better, send an e-mail to [email protected], and go to Network solutions and simply check the domain pretegra.com -- hell I'll even send you a link to Article I wrote that has my picture with it, (A bad picture mind you) but you'll see that I'm not the person with the first initial "M" that you think I am.
Again, not tbe rude, but you are really deluding yourself here.
posted on August 12, 2002 09:18:40 PM new
>>Geez I have a hunch I know who you may be.
Stick to your day job, Detective work is not your forte'
>>Hogwash and hooey!
The fact that they have the option on how to handle it is enough of a threat. Right now the US government is trying to topple Saddam Hussein because of "what he's allegedly capable of doing.." <<
Hasn't Saddam ALREADY proven what he's capable of doing? There is NO alleged when it comes to Saddam.
>>I'm not saying they're wrong. In fact I agree with that position 100% just as I feel that the merger should be prevented for some of the same reasons in a sense. <<
*Yawns* Look it's obvious here that you're one of those people who hates large companies on principle, which is rather funny since you talk about debating business models when your argument is completly emotional and has no logic context or substance to it.
"Just because someone is succeeding at a far higher rate then others doesn't make them controling or malevolent, as long as they're not trying to actively hurt other companies growth prospects outside the bounds of normal competition, I don't see the problem."
If you are not already working in some >>capacity or affiliation for ebay or its many companies then you sure are making a great case to get a position with them when you post that. <<
Yawn, it's called competition, not everyone can win...has nothing to do with praising ebay and um, you did ask someone to take Ebay's side.
>>Ebay via acquisitions of other auction companies and services effects normal competition. Ebay has become so big that they may have scared companies like Yahoo and Amazon out of the auction biz in any serious fashion. It's a very small world you know. Today's biz enemy is tommorrow's partner and friend. <<
Sure, that's it........Amazon and Yahoo are scared of Paulie Walnuts and Sylvio Dante Meg "Tony Soprano" Whitman's hired guns.
Amazon and Yahoo wouldn't be Amazon and Yahoo if they would be scared to enter a market, for fear of the current market leader......and besides, what about MSN?
You think that Meg Whitman scares Bill Gates?
"You add the above up, and you probbaly a significant portion (if not all) of the factors that are currently decreasing auction sales. "
>>Every industry goes through cycles. Our industry has had some really impressive highs and now is facing lows.<<
So now the lows are just an industry cycle and aren't Ebay's fault.......this is stupid, why don't you just banners to your site and get it over with?
>>I think in the next ten years companies like Ebay will become even larger. That's kind of scary to me. That's why I feel alternatives have to be created because I don't feel that we as individuals can depend on government or the business world to deal with this sort of beast! <<<
Sales venue not a beast......emotional arguments again, who cares if a company becomes large, do you want people telling you how successful you can become?
">>'d bet a dollar to your dime that you are connected or work for Ebay. That was a very very cagey statement. Are you in any fashion affiliated to Ebay other than being a seller or bidder? >>
You owe me a buck, pay up.
>>Well if you can proove your point I'd be happy to. Just send me your paypal account address...<<
"To me, no one out there can hold a Candle to Ebay in terms of overall site traffic and potential bidders for my auctions. Like you said, they do control 90% of the auction market. That's hard to argue against. Say what you will about Ebay's other issues, but no one has the potential to deliver more traffic -- simple math, they have 90% marketshare. "
>>Again, I doff my hat at your clever usage of terms. You keep focusing on Auctions when we all know that Ebay is chasing after Amazon's success with fixed price sales. <<
Shrugs, who controls 90% of the Market? Um, Ebay......and since I've had no success selling on Amazon, I think I'll stick to Ebay. All Ebay's doing is expanding their services to maintain a competitive edge. It's called Business.....something you appear to know little about.
"C'mon, please stop with the emotional arguments --- an online auction site be it yours or Ebay's, only drives traffic to your auction on their site, that's how they make business. "
>>Sorry if you feel that way. I don't think many of my arguements are "emotional".<<
You keep speaking about your feelings, moreso then speaking about facts, numbers or logic. Did you not speak of fear with regards to ebay becoming too large.
>>Our business model is not designed to yield us the maximum amount of dollar return or profit.
We only get fees based on our subscription rates thus we are a true venue as opposed to being a "Perfect Store." <<
Then you'll simply lose customers to someone who DOES design their business model to do that and provides a better service then you at the same time.
>>The more listings a subscriber has the more means they have to direct traffic to their own sites thus build their own businesses. <
Which is counterproductive to building your business because you're creating a situation where your customers will eventually not need you/need you as much.
"Says the woman using this forum to promote her own site"
>>Ow! Now who's being inflammatory? For the record I am still a male. Not a woman. And no, I am not using this thread for promotion. When we issued the challenge we did so in the places that Ebay people traffic. We basically posted a notice and it must've worked as we recieved contact from Ebay at the VP level within 24 hours.<<<
Who do you think you're kidding? I've worked with people responsible for marketing small web sites as well as those responsible for marketing drugs at Fortune 100 Pharmaceutical companies...publicity has always been one of the best ways to get the word out about a product or service.....and that's what your so called debate was, a publicity stunt.
As for your Gender, Jaime while a name given to both males and females, is typically given to females.
"The purpose of Ebay is to provide a venue for you to sell your products, NOT to build your Brand name. "
>>I think that's smoke and mirrors. If Ebay had never allowed links from day one I would agree with you. Unfortunately this policy only came into effect in the last year or two. It is because Ebay didn't want to have business leak away from it that it has installed it. Ebay wants every single FVF it should get.
I don't have a problem with that policy in anyway. I as a seller simply prefer the way things were where we could build up our own customer base. Good sellers actually build up a following and at a minimum of 30 cents per listing deserve to benefit from their hard labor. <<
That policy doesn't keep you from building up a following, I've only been business a short time and I'm already building up repeat customers who buy from me directly.
Weak Argument.
"You're going to charge much more then E-bay but charge a mere fraction of the cost.......*chuckles* again that math issue coming up. "
>>Where did that come from? Our subscription rate is less than the cost to list 100 auctiosn on Ebay? Add in the cost of FVF's and not being able to have links and I think our site is a much better deal. Especially as our traffic and user base grows. <<
But at this time, you don't have the traffic or user base to enable a customer to generate the same profits as they would on ebay, in fact, they wouldn't generate anywhere near the same profits.
It may be cheaper to list on your site, but when you consider the much lower revenue from sales, it's not going to be as profitable.
" Mark my words, this is where the upstarts fail, trying to create the perfect market for sellers and focusing on the wrong side of the equation."
>>We are not trying to create the perfect Market. We are not the solution to all of the problems in our industry. We are going to be very open and honest with our users. We are going to have the same problems as ebay and other sites. How we deal with them will hopefully show the difference.<<
Doesn't matter.....your approach is off, just some constructive criticism from a consultant who has seem many a business fail and many a business succeed...from mom and pops to large corps in his career.
"It's BUYERS that matter, not sellers -- as long as there are buyers, sellers can adapt to find a way to sell to them profitably."
>>Buyers are one of the most important elements in the online sales experiance. Can't sell without them! On the other hand they can't buy without sellers... <<
Smart sellers will always adapt to the market, which is defined by the Buyer.....the end.
posted on August 13, 2002 04:13:40 AM new
Hi Pretegra,
Good God, did I in anyway suggest you were Ms Whitman? No, I didn't. I am suggesting that you are a regular poster on other said sites as I suggested. I did mention, OTWA, OAUA, etc.... Do you deny signing up on AW for any other reason than to enter this thread?
"*Yawns* Look it's obvious here that you're one of those people who hates large companies on principle, which is rather funny since you talk about debating business models when your argument is completly emotional and has no logic context or substance to it. "
Hey, if it makes it easier to attack an idea or point instead of debating it by calling it emotional more power to you babe!
I've also not suggested that any company is afraid of Ebay. However some particular companies chose to not compete in this industry. Why did MSN fold their auctions? Why didn't AOL start auctions?
Maybe these companies talk to each other? Maybe not. I think it's a very small world.
"Sales venue not a beast......emotional arguments again, who cares if a company becomes large, do you want people telling you how successful you can become? "
This isn't a success issue. This is a monopoly issue to me.
"Well if you can proove your point I'd be happy to. Just send me your paypal account address...<< "
You haven't prooved anything yet though have you? My dollar is yours as soon as you do.
"something you appear to know little about."
Sticks and stones. Why is it that I can debate or discuss your point without calling you names but you can't offer the same courtesy?
">>Sorry if you feel that way. I don't think many of my arguements are "emotional".<<
You keep speaking about your feelings, moreso then speaking about facts, numbers or logic. Did you not speak of fear with regards to ebay becoming too large."
Perhaps you can read this exchange again. I was talking about "your" feelings.
"Which is counterproductive to building your business because you're creating a situation where your customers will eventually not need you/need you as much."
Actually we will have met our goal if this occurs. Bidders will stay on our site if they like the product and sellers that are there. Some will do business with vendors on our site that have met their approval. People like to buy from the same place if they've been treated well and are happy with the product.
For example if I buy a book from company X I would tend to look for my next book with that seller if I was satisfied with the transaction. If I wanted to be a video I most likely go back to where I found that vendor if the vendor didn't sell videos.
Our goal isn't strictly driven by financials. This is no crime. It is basically a version of what I had hoped the co-op would've become.
"As for your Gender, Jaime while a name given to both males and females, is typically given to females. "
Jamie = Male
Jaime = Female
"and that's what your so called debate was, a publicity stunt"
I guess you were never at our Messageboard. We announced the debate feature weeks before the challenge. No it was not promotional otherwise we would've made it happen no matter what instead of cancelling it because nobody came forth to champion Meg/Ebay.
We will continue to have debates.
"Doesn't matter.....your approach is off, just some constructive criticism from a consultant who has seem many a business fail and many a business succeed...from mom and pops to large corps in his career. "
Geez there are an awful lot of consultants out there M.
I have already refused offers to buy out or buy into our company. I have refused an offer to create a shell to take it public at one point and I have recieved zero emails about how bad our business model is. In fact I have recieved the exact opposite.
I don't hate big business. I don't hate Ebay or any other company in our industry. I don't think we are trying to compete with any of the other auction sites. As a matter of fact we offer them banners.
No smoke, no windows, no hidden agendas.
It's simple and whether it is succussful or not will not be dependant on this thread. It will be the actions of users over time.
We are not in this for a big splash. We will grow slowly and comfortably.
posted on August 13, 2002 09:52:27 AM new[This] is basically a version of what I had hoped the co-op would've become.
What you are doing has nothing to do with building a co-op. You use it the word "co-op" as a marketing tool, when in fact you attacked the co-op movement. You solicited free help and mailing lists by marketing AuctionPie as a true co-op. Then, a week before the scheduled opening, you announced that AuctionPie would be run for your own profit. It's not hard to figure out. You see the co-op as competition to your pay site.
I still believe a true co-op can succeed. Because it gives sellers and buyers a reason to shop there. Co-op members have a vested interest in building up their site. They own it.
That is one reason why I opposed the policy of outside links when we discussed building a co-op. Using a co-op as a cheap source of advertising, while completing most sales off-site, is not in the best interests of a group of sellers who share a common customer base. If you recall, I conceded this point to the majority, while hoping to re-examine the policy at a later time.
I still think a co-op can succeed on a small scale, but what you are doing has nothing, nothing to do with cooperative principles. Take a look at your actions. You got co-op discussion kicked off AuctionWatch. Then you attacked the co-op movement itself. You publicly called for a boycott of AW. You called for the ouster of OAUA because you were refused membership. Now you're taking pot shots at OTWA because you were banned from there. That is not cooperation.
You are trying to bill yourself at Jamie the Benevolent, but strip away all the marketing/pr and what is left is another for-pay auction wannabe site. My friend, you are co-op public enemy #1. You can't hold a rational "debate" without whining and accusations. You are unable to work with others in any meaningful way. If someone tried to buy you out, the reason was just to shut up your endless promotions of a "stable" site that hasn't managed to open its doors to the public.
posted on August 13, 2002 10:02:45 AM new
Twinny, please. You are entitled to your opinion but if you are going to print them in a public place you should at least make sure they are factual.
Your last statement is a collective lie and mistruth.
I won't belabor the points as I don't want to give them any credence.
You have established that you don't like me or what I have worked on.
Repeating your lies doesn't make it any better.
It just hurts the very industry you "claim" to want to help.
If we've done all the things you "claim" that we have done it will all come out.
It's been a long road and we still have a ways to go but petty lying has got to stop.
You want to challenge a point you are free to do so. You want to criticize me, you are free to do so. You are not free to libel and slander. Please stop this sort of action.
posted on August 13, 2002 08:59:26 PM new
>>Good God, did I in anyway suggest you were Ms Whitman? No, I didn't. I am suggesting that you are a regular poster on other said sites as I suggested. I did mention, OTWA, OAUA, etc.... Do you deny signing up on AW for any other reason than to enter this thread?<<
You kept referring to my use of my first initial, "M" which is the same as Megs.
It's readily apparent that you're more interested in promoting yourself (Not to mention have serious delusions of grandeur) then having a discussion. I'm having a hard time believing that you're still stuck the issue of my "identity" out of some ridiculous assumption that I somehow work for Ebay or am a person that is somehow involved with OTWA or OAUA two acronymns for which I have no clue as to their meaning.
Why the hell would I sign up here to argue with you? What pray tell do you represent or have that is need of berating?
I already denied signing up here for purposes other then entering this thread, I pointed out that if you send me an e-mail (To [email protected]) I would give you information on my identity, -- I use this site to manage my auctions....only stumbled upon these message boards by accident, thought I could network, maybe make some connections I could use to build my businesses.....
.....but all I see is nonsensical whining....maybe the serious auctioneers aren't posting here and are busy building their businesses....maybe I should join them.
>>I've also not suggested that any company is afraid of Ebay. However some particular companies chose to not compete in this industry. Why did MSN fold their auctions? Why didn't AOL start auctions?<<
You said the following:
"Ebay has become so big that they may have scared companies like Yahoo and Amazon out of the auction biz in any serious fashion."
Doesn't that suggest fear.
Now maybe those companies don't have auctions because Auctions isn't their businesses, maybe they see what a tremendous undertaking it is and want to stick to their core competencies.
Maybe they don't want to make the investment to challenge Ebay, because they're not sure they could be as profitable -- because if they did, they would....
Does that mean that Ebay should be curtailed because people don't bother competing? Or does that mean that those companies are missing the boat on a potential money maker?
Either way, I don't think it points to anti-trust issues.
"Sales venue not a beast......emotional arguments again, who cares if a company becomes large, do you want people telling you how successful you can become? "
>>This isn't a success issue. This is a monopoly issue to me. <<
It's only a monopoly if you are actively trying to prevent competition, NOT if you manage to shut down or squelch competition by virtue of your success, it's two different things.
Microsoft didn't end up in court because they dominate the OS market, they ended up in court because tried to use that dominance to strong arm other companies and break the law to prevent other companies from competing against them.
It would be analogous to the following:
AOL wants to enter the Auction Market and Ebay tells AOL that unless they get a cut, and/or just use a AOL branded version of Ebay, that Ebay will block all AOL users from buying & selling on Ebay.
OR when they complete their aquisition of Pay Pal, they prevent people from using other payment services.
Speaking of which, doesn't Amazon require that you only accept Amazon payments and prevents you from using other payment services?
Amazon does it and it's cool, if Ebay did the same thing you'd throw a Tantrum.
"Well if you can proove your point I'd be happy to. Just send me your paypal account address...<< "
>>You haven't prooved anything yet though have you? My dollar is yours as soon as you do. <<
This was your original statement:
">>I'd bet a dollar to your dime that you are connected or work for Ebay. That was a very very cagey statement. Are you in any fashion affiliated to Ebay other than being a seller or bidder? >>
If you would e-mail me instead of being a shill for your own site, I would've already proven that I wasn't affiliated with E-bay, that's issue of fact you bet the dollar on isn't it?
As for proving something, simple math proves Ebay is more profitable then your site until you get a significant amount of power and cut into their market share.
E-mail me and I'll prove that I
A. Am not affiliated with Ebay
B. Joined this site for reasons having nothing to do with you.
>>Perhaps you can read this exchange again. I was talking about "your" feelings. <<
>>I think in the next ten years companies like Ebay will become even larger. That's kind of scary to me. That's why I feel alternatives have to be created because I don't feel that we as individuals can depend on government or the business world to deal with this sort of beast! <<
That was your statement, you mentioned that Ebay getting larger is scary to you.
"Which is counterproductive to building your business because you're creating a situation where your customers will eventually not need you/need you as much."
>>Actually we will have met our goal if this occurs. Bidders will stay on our site if they like the product and sellers that are there. Some will do business with vendors on our site that have met their approval. People like to buy from the same place if they've been treated well and are happy with the product. <<
If your sellers grow to not need you, then you'll lose customers, the buyers will buy from them directly.
Our goal isn't strictly driven by financials. This is no crime. It is basically a version of what I had hoped the co-op would've become.
"As for your Gender, Jaime while a name given to both males and females, is typically given to females. "
>>Jamie = Male
>>Jaime = Female
I plenty of women who spell their names J-A-I-M-E......get over it.
"and that's what your so called debate was, a publicity stunt"
>>I guess you were never at our Messageboard. We announced the debate feature weeks before the challenge. No it was not promotional otherwise we would've made it happen no matter what instead of cancelling it because nobody came forth to champion Meg/Ebay.<<
It become a publicity stunt when you mentioned it here, because it would gain publicity.
"Doesn't matter.....your approach is off, just some constructive criticism from a consultant who has seem many a business fail and many a business succeed...from mom and pops to large corps in his career. "
>>Geez there are an awful lot of consultants out there M.<<
Just giving my opinion based on my experience.
>>I have already refused offers to buy out or buy into our company. I have refused an offer to create a shell to take it public at one point and I have recieved zero emails about how bad our business model is. In fact I have recieved the exact opposite. <<
Jaime, I have a hard time believing you, you strike as someone who would say anything to promote his business.
Even if it is true, people un-profitable businesses and take useless companies public all the time.
IN FACT, I'v known of plenty of cases where Person X buys a business from Person Y only to revamp it in a way that's more profitable, happens all the time.
Anyway, this is my last (and I mean it this time) post on this matter......the simple fact that you ignored my offer to give you information on my identity and deluded yourself into thinking that I came here just to argue with you, based on the fact that I don't want to join Clutterpie is absurd. You keep contradicting yourself and as I've said dozens of times already......
..for someone wanting to debate business model viability, you seem to want talk about dozens of things that have nothing to do with whether or not said business model will be successful.
....besides, twinsoft seems to disabusing your faux logic pretty well....no need for me to do it too.
posted on August 13, 2002 10:47:45 PM new
Dinky, I'm not lying. Here are some facts:
1) You were kicked off AuctionWatch.
2) You were kicked off OTWA (Online Web Trader's Alliance).
3) You were refused membership in OAUA (Online Auction Users Association), a group of over 3,000 auction users.
4) You were kicked out of OASC (Online Auction Sellers Cooperative) discussion group.
Those are facts. They speak for themselves. I don't care what you do with AuctionPie. But don't pretend to be a co-op or pretend to be a champion of cooperative principles. You aren't a person who knows how to cooperate.
Posters here and on other chat boards come for various reasons. For recreation, to learn, to share, to relax, to take a break.... That's why they have so little patience for those whose only purpose is self-promotion. You never contribute, except to start "newsy" threads about your auction site. You disrespect this forum. The response you get is deserved.
True story. Last week I got a phone call asking for "Mr. Ahmed." I said Mr. Ahmed no longer lives here. The caller replied, "Oh yeah, right" as though he just remembered his friend had moved. Then the caller said to me, "Well, maybe you can help me. Do you think that private citizens should support their local police...? "
You see, the telemarketer's motives were obvious behind the transparent and poorly-practiced sales pitch. Interestingly, just a day before the call, several people in town were ARRESTED for running a phony police charity scam. Including an ex-police officer! It seems less than 2% of the money actually went to charity. Those people were arrested and charged with FRAUD.
To me, you are very much like that telemarketeur. And I expect one day it will catch up to you, and you will pay the price.
I'm tired of seeing this thread come up, so I won't post here again.
