posted on January 25, 2001 12:12:36 PM new
Inside,
No I believe you are mistaken. Pro choice means it is each person's choice, not mandatory for her to do either.
Pro choice means that IF a woman chooses to have the baby then we are very happy for her, it is her right That is what I chose but IF I had decided not to then that would have been my Choice and the same goes for anyother woman. See, no mandatory. We do not choose to propose to tell anyone how they MUST choose. It is not mandatory for them to do either.
Anti Abortion means just what it says : Mandatory because there would be no other way and those that are anti abortion wants a law that would make it mandatory for each woman NOT to choose because it would be the law.
There is a possibility you may be confusing exactly which belief would be Mandatory.
posted on January 25, 2001 12:24:38 PM newinside - point your attention to China, please. What happens there in the name of population control is far more horrid than abortion by choice - women are forced to abort their children (no matter where in the term they are!). Those women have no choice - there, abortion is "mandatory", but only because their government decided to get involved in the reproductive rights of it's citizens.
I don't think the government has any right to my reproductive system. Or yours either.
posted on January 25, 2001 12:33:05 PM new
Ok...I had to stand back for a minute and mull this one before posting.
Quote: "Perhaps we could offer a pro-choice to die to all there suffering people and if they wish to die we could just kill them off. I wonder how many would make that choice?"
After spending almost seven years caring for my mother as she was dying of cancer - I can assure you that when I reach a state in my life where my "life" is nothing more than waiting for my damn heart to finally stop beating so I can stop suffering - I would indeed make that choice. Yes, I would. And the arrangements for that were made ten years ago, when she died.
I won't be spending my last days in that kind of misery. My life. My choice.
posted on January 25, 2001 12:41:21 PM new
maddienicks, you said Much better that the pregnancy be brought to full term.
Unfortunately, poor and young and minority women have much higher rates of preterm birth.
We saw the admission rate in NICUs climb drastically when Pres. Reagan cut clinic funding back in the early 80s. Waiting lists for critically ill babies to get into our unit, and they were being taken care of by nurses who had no experience with the ICU setting. Ground Transports of more than 200 miles of critically ill babies whose parents had no insurance.
I've also seen the results of home done botched abortions.
I've also seen lots of boarder babies who spend their lives in hospitals or institutions.
And Bush wants to add more to a system that is already broken?
posted on January 25, 2001 12:44:47 PM neweyeguy: as I wrote earlier, and I am not there to pass judgment of that person's decision, as I do not know the history.
I am not sure what I would do. I do believe that, had I been raped by a man carrying aids, or a syphilitic man, and had I become pregnant, and had it been discovered down the line, say, 4, even five months later, that the baby was irriversably affected and it's life threatened, chances are, yes, I might, just MIGHT have opted for a late-term abortion. I do not know for certain, since it never happened to me....but it really DOES happen...
posted on January 25, 2001 12:47:53 PM newsnowyegret - I was being sarcastic, I promise!
Even worse when these unwanted babies come early! My son shared an area in the Denver NICU with a preterm crack addicted baby. It broke my heart.
Are you a nurse in an NICU? If so - God bless you! A wonderful team saved my daughter's life more than once - I wasn't young or poor or without insurance, but delivered preterm both times. Amazing people in those units.
posted on January 25, 2001 12:48:42 PM new
Your life your choice.
I could accept that if it were only your life. But when there is a baby, there is another life involved and they do not have a choice.
As far as this thread is concerned, the question was about sending tax money to support abortion in foreign countries. You may choose to abort your child, you may in theory support abortion in general, you may even donate money to help perform abortions, but when you ask those who do not believe in abortion to pay for your choice, you ask too much.
posted on January 25, 2001 12:55:30 PM new Perhaps we could offer a pro-choice to die to all there suffering people and if they wish to die we could just kill them off. I wonder how many would make that choice?
I do have a choice on whether I want to continue my life should the suffering become unbearable and my illness irreversible. It's called a Living Will.
And, the individual, along with my family physician, appointed to make the decision to end my suffering can take comfort in the fact that they are carrying out my wishes for my life.
posted on January 25, 2001 12:56:37 PM new
In China there is a choice... but a very difficult one. A woman who has a child and finds herself pregnant has the choice of abortion, abandoning her new baby (which is illegal), or facing stiff fines.
But the overpopulation problem was the reason for passage of the "one child" law in the first place, and it has been effective in helping cut down on the problem of there being too many people to reasonably sustain. We simply cannot reproduce like bunnies, expand the population indefinitely, and expect it to just work out in the long run because we'd like for it to.
Birth control is a wonderful thing. Some people believe that we shouldn't even have that.
posted on January 25, 2001 12:56:48 PM new
I do not believe in most of the things my tax dollars are used for. But Uncle Sam has more power than I do - so I fork over a big chunk of change every week to pay for private jets and expensive vacations for the public "servants" we have put into office and buying $300 hammers and toilet seats. I don't have much say in that.
The funding Shrub cut was not used to perform abortions. It was used by family planning clinics to keep their doors open. Those clinics did not perform the abortions. Now they can not even say the word to these desperate women who walk through their doors for fear of losing the funding the good old USA is providing them.
I have to go earn my way now, so I can fork over some more money to my government to spend foolishly on whatever fling Shrub's brain takes next.
posted on January 25, 2001 12:57:07 PM newbut when you ask those who do not believe in abortion to pay for your choice, you ask too much.
I don't believe in putting casual drug users in jail as long as their actions while using drugs did not injure (or threaten injury) to another or cause damage to another's property, yet I have been given no choice to "opt out" of paying for their incarceration.
If you are suggesting that nobody should ever have their tax dollars spent for anything of which they disapprove, I think you're opening up an enormous can of worms.
posted on January 25, 2001 12:57:36 PM new
That's a fallacious argument, because our tax money cannot be distributed in the way each of us would like. If every taxpayer were given the opportunity to direct their portion of taxes we'd have 100 million budgets.
posted on January 25, 2001 01:01:18 PM newsnowyegret...Thank you! That is exactly what Pro-Life supporters cannot seem to understand...
The moment we choose to have a child, we ARE pro-life. So basically, most of us ARE pro-life, since MOST OF US have pro-created.
But we have CHOSEN if and when to bring a child into the world. Or we have CHOSEN to be single dads, single mothers...As Chris says: it is a matter of CHOICE. Pro-life supporters are ramming their belief into other's throat, when the others only want to exercise THEIR CHOICE. And YES, look at the other side of the coin, as Chris pointed out, regarding China. Fanaticism is extremely dangerous, no matter which side of the fence one stands on.
Where was the great compassion and great respect for life of the Pro-Lifers when they killed that doctor in front of the clinic? and when they bombed the clinics? Did they think, for one second, that inside, there were pregant women, and that if they were killed, so would the embryo they carried? The hypocrisy of it all!
You may choose to abort your child, you may in theory support abortion in general, you may even donate money to help perform abortions, but when you ask those who do not believe in abortion to pay for your choice, you ask too much.
You have a very valid point, and in theory I agree with you. If you don't support abortion, you shouldn't have to pay for it. But withdrawing funds from needy people hurts far more than it helps. These organizations do a lot of good; abortion is not their primary focus.
I certainly don't support everything the government does, but I still pay for all of it through my taxes.
This is an issue where no one will ever be converted to another way of thinking. Why do we all bother to even talk about it?
posted on January 25, 2001 01:05:20 PM new
maddienicks,
That is where we really differ. I see the horror of China's law in that a child is killed, you see the horror in that an adult's choice was taken away.
shoshanah,
Perhaps one day all deformed and unhealthy children will be identified and aborted so that you will not have to worry about their welfare. Of course as I watch those deformed kids at the special olympics, I find myself cheering them, loving them, and humbled by their spirit. As for aids and syphilitic parents, perhaps as soon as someone is diagnosed they should be sterilized so that such children would not be possible. Oh but that would interfere with adult rights again wouldn't it.
posted on January 25, 2001 01:15:26 PM new
Sorry for jumping in here.
I have never understood the anti Choice people. If you don't agree with abortion...don't have one. Seems like a fairly easy choice to me. But I absolutely hate the idea of anyone telling me or my daughters what to do. I hope I will teach them to value themselves. Not to throw away their dignity for a cheap thrill (like my mom did). But that will be their choice to make and my job to teach. I don't want anyone else to decide for me and mine!!
I know no one brought this up...but the new government wants to review RU486 now. People forget that there are many uses for this drug not just abortion. Women with endometrosis can use it to get better....and possibly get pregnant. I know I was hoping to use the drug...instead of sugery. If it wasn't for those anti choice people...it could've helped a lot of women by now.
posted on January 25, 2001 01:16:05 PM newinsidePerhaps one day all deformed and unhealthy children will be identified and aborted so that you will not have to worry about their welfare;;;
See, the difference between your "view" and mine is that YOUR view twists the truth into something disgusting....
Hitler did just that...Yet, on the other end, he PAID young ARIAN couples, married or not, to produce more PURE ARIANS...Was he Pro-Life or Pro-Choice?
Time to visit another thread...Catch you all later...
********
Gosh Shosh!
I can't disagree with that. Lots of things I'd not like to pay for but I do. Still I am allowed to speak out against my money being spent where I do not like.
femme,
Your life your wishes, correct! What of a child's life and his wishes?
shoshanah,
I can't speak for anyone else but personally I think the clinic bombers should punished to the max. It was wrong.
posted on January 25, 2001 01:48:34 PM new
You know, lately I've been seeing people attack family planning clinics as if ALL they ever did was get women abortions.
HELLO....you people who think this....I am a 15 year patient at the "Family Planning Clinic" in my neighborhood. I have NEVER been pregnant and NEVER had an abortion. Because I have preexisting conditions I have often been without medical insurance, and have used our local Planned Parenthood to get wellness care (pap, cervical exams) birth control (pills prescribed, devices fitted, etc.) care for female problems (cysts, breast exams, PMS) and a WIDE VARIETY of other types of care! My friends without insurance go there for prenatal care and baby checkups. A relative having a miscarriage (but who didn't know it) potentially had her life saved by the doctors at the local PP. I'm SO grateful they are there, because if you don't have insurance for reasons that are ENTIRELY out of your hands, then they are one of the FEW places you can get medical attention short of an emergency room.
They do a LOT more than just help women get abortions.
posted on January 25, 2001 02:14:37 PM new
I think abortions are like guns. I think most pro-choice people would be if favor of putting reasonable limits on abortions if it weren't for the fear that it would only be a stepping stone towards totally outlawing them. By the same token, I think that most pro-gun people wouldn't be opposed to bans on assult weapons, etc if it weren't for the same fear. Am I off base here?
posted on January 25, 2001 02:36:00 PM new
I am appaled by late term abortion but it comes down to this. I am afraid of this government that tells people what they can and can't do. I know that people are going to abort and do drugs and a lot of other things I would never do, but the solution that is the heavy hand of government on us is frightening. I personally am disgusted with smoking and all the people killed by this addictive drug. But I am smart enough to know that if it was outlawed it would be like prohibition. The "war" on drugs would be a school yard fist fight compared to what would happen if they outlawed tobacco. There can't be a law for every action that someone does not approve of. Sometimes we have to take personal responsibility and let the other fellow go to hell by his own road.
posted on January 25, 2001 02:57:03 PM new
I am pro-choice. I have a lot of opinions on the subject, but I tend to let the anti-choice misogynist bible-thumping rhetoric get me upset. You can't have a real discussion under those conditions. The other posters are doing a good job stating the obvious, so I just want to lend my support to them, and wish them well.
Speak the truth for me too.
Thanks,
Victoria
posted on January 25, 2001 03:27:51 PM new
snowyegret,
I wanted to say Thank You for the care all of you do in a neo natal intensive care unit. My son was in one for his first 31 days and I can tell you I am amazed at the wonderful work all of you do. We were very lucky. Our son lived and there were those that just could not no matter how much care was given.
I am afraid we are going to go back to those days you spoke of under Reagon which brings what I listened to on Dateline (I think) about the shortage of room in ER's and Emt's actually traveling from hospital to hospital only to be told they are too full to take care of them and some dying and some being cared for right outside the doors of the hospital because there is no room. All this because so many have no insurance, the fact that there are more older people and to me the fact that these HMO's limit or tie the Drs hands to do what needs to be done. Wonder how many die because a nurse or dr just couldn't treat them because they were so busy they couldn't handle all of them?
Inside,
There are lots of place that I and I am sure many don't want their tax dollars to go. Perhaps we could lobby for a check sheet to choose where our dollars go? Would yours go for all the welfare, medicaid, foster parents pay ,which I understand is very little, drs, schooling. Are you ready for your tax dollars to open all the special need schools that are needed? Are you ready for your tax dollars to feed each and everyone of these children that have parents that either won't or can't and the list goes on and on. Not sure where you stand on birth control but would you allow birth control pills to be paid for? If not add those children to your list too because we chose how many children we could afford and then used birth control as my choice for me, not others. The last time I heard Birth control pills were $33.00. I remember struggling to come up with $3.00 during the 60's.
I hope you won't say that churches will take care of these children because they won't and on that I would bet the farm. Somehow I am thinking you may also think that people should take care of their own children. Me too, but for some it is simply not possible. Now add a ban on birh control that many of the Anti Abortionists want.
Someone spoke of the wonderful work that Family Planning did besides that dreaded A word. There are also OCAC programs that do this very same thing and make birth control affordable to those that need or want it plus many .
Although your answer maybe yes I have my doubts as to exactly how many Anti Abortion supporters would so what do we do with those poor children? Some will say there are people that will adopt. Please! While I think that is wonderful there are those children that are "not adoptable" because of illnesses etc. A terrible thing but the truth so I have my doubts there are enough people to take care of these children. Sad but true.
Femme,
I so agree!
Gravid and eyeguy6,
I believe you are right and one reason I will not prevent those do-gooders or no-good doers the chance and I am not speaking of any person here but I will use Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson as an example.
edited to say: but I will always go on the side of the Dr and the mother.
posted on January 25, 2001 04:13:35 PM new
inside, what if a woman's life is at risk and giving birth to that baby will kill her. Does SHE not have the right to her own life? Or is it ok in the pro-lifer's book for the mother to die and have the baby raised without her than to have the baby aborted to save her life.
This HAS been the case. But with Dubya there is no gray area...unless you count the space between his ears, lol
