posted on January 27, 2001 08:52:17 AM new
Maddienicks,
I could not get the first link to open (timed out) but as for the second case, what does that have to do with abortion? Did the mother want an abortion and was not granted it?
posted on January 27, 2001 09:15:04 AM new
Inside,
Okay, there may be one thing we can agree on Unless I have misunderstood you and that is about last trimester abortions.
I do not agree that an abortion should be done that late unless there is a threat to the mothers life or a test shows that the baby can not sustain life. (hopefully putting that last part is not putting words in your mouth and if we differ on that please ignore and just go to the first that we might agree on) This is a decision for the mother and the Dr and I do not think it is made lightly IMO.
I do not know why this procedure is used to terminiate the pregnancy to save the mother. Maybe a nurse can answer this question for us as to why this procedure is used and not another. A question, Are you certain that this is the only method used?
posted on January 27, 2001 09:25:02 AM new
Those children were brought into this world. They were not aborted - the decision to abort was not made. Pro-life all the way! They were born and given life and then tortured until that life was GONE. The system failed these children in a huge way. I do not want that same system telling any woman what her rights are in regards to bringing a child into this world.
I am pro-life in the sense that to abort is not an easy choice, but I am far FAR more concerned for those children already in this world living in squalor and pain and fear and abuse. How it relates to abortion in my mind is this: If you want to save children without voices - save THESE children first! When they are safe, then fight for the rights of those not yet viable outside the womb!
When our government tends properly to those children who are at such incredible risk, I will be far less critical of their attempts to put a leash on the right of a woman to obtain an abortion.
Now I have to leave this - I am going to spend the day with my family. First an auction, then playtime and dinner with a friend who does foster care. She, by the way, is also pro-life. But she has chosen to spend her pro-life efforts in aiding those children who are destroyed by a system more flawed than anyone who hasn't been inside it could ever believe.
posted on January 27, 2001 09:32:04 AM new
Having listened to the heartbeat of my early trimester unborn children I can’t help but
think that to end the heartbeat by whatever chosen method is to take a life.
But, does that give me the right to tell another woman that she must carry on with her pregnancy? I don’t believe that I have that right. But, let’s say that I did. Once I’ve told a woman that she has no choice... is that where my responsibility to the infant that I’ve just protected ends? Wouldn’t that in effect really be saying, “Look kid, I saved your life... hope it’s a nice one.” Is that where my responsibility ends with the mother? Haven’t I just made a decision for her that will impact every aspect of her life for the rest of her life?
IMO, we are all spiritual beings first with an innate responsiblity to the well-being of each other. Am I helping the infant when I force it to enter the earth rather than return to the heavenly realm? Have I fullfilled my responsibility to the mother when I force her to live by my personal belief system.
Inside I understand your compassion for the unborn child. And, I share your
desire to see the day that we all welcome each new life. But, we are far from being able to fullfill our real obligation to these unborn children. Or, to know that the mother we have forced our beliefs on would not have her own life greatly diminished. This matters to me. IOW, I can’t ask another person to embrace my beliefs... and then absolve myself of further responsibility.
At the same time, I believe that we must continue to be the voice for the unborn - and for their sakes to do everything possible to reach a point in society that abortion must no longer even be considered as a choice. IMO, that should be our focus and our goal. For now, for some - abortion is the only choice. And, one that only they can resolve within themselves.
posted on January 27, 2001 09:36:48 AM new
Maddienicks,
The decision to bring those particular children into the world was a "pro-choice" decision. You should be happy with that. Unless of course you are now thinking that those children should have been aborted against their mother's will?
These mother's obviously not only choose to give birth but choose to take them back away from homes that loved them. You want to fight for these kids, fight that they not be returned to unfit mothers just because they gave birth.
Just because a person can make a baby does not give her supreme rights over that child.
posted on January 27, 2001 09:57:41 AM new
Inside,
Yes, in a last trimester I do think it is a baby and I will wait for someone better qualified than I to answer your question as to why IF all are terminated by this procedure.
I also agree with mybidness as to it not being my right to interfer with a womans decision to abort.
Let's pretend that abortions are illegal and each and every girl, woman must carry to term and yes this to me is a horror but for the sake of understanding I will pretend.
The women have these babies . Where do all these baby's go? Who is responsible for these babies in this Pro-life law that all must deliver? Who raises these children, provides for them not only financially but spirtually, mentally,medically, etc., and daily for the rest of their lives?
edited to add: To clarify: The mother is not an option to raising these children.
posted on January 27, 2001 10:31:20 AM new
I shall break my Saturday rule to say:
What it comes down to is: Pro-choice = quality of life
This theme appears to be missing from the Pro-Life supporters.
I do not know MANY Pro-Life people in my area, but enough to say that, just in my little neighbourhood, those involved in Pro-life happen to be the perfect Christian family, with the perfect little boy and the perfect little girl, with the perfect 400.000 home with the perfect lawn in the perfect neighbourhood. No adopted children. Everyone is in Church (Episcopelian} right around the corner from my house. I SEE these people. They are not figments of my imagination. And I SAW them handing out petitions at the Mini Marts doors.
Life IS NOT perfect.
Of the few personal friends who went to Africa and India to teach "survival" skills, not ONE was Pro-Life. How come?
******** Gosh Shosh!
posted on January 27, 2001 12:09:14 PM newInside I think we can also agree that the real shame and horror of abortion is rooted in the fact that as spiritual beings in the human condition, we have created an environment in which so many young women truly believe that abortion is the better choice for their unborn child. To add salt to the wound, we also insist that they feel guilty or wholly responsible for finding themselves in the position they're in. I believe that most often (not always) abortion is a tortured decision. Sadly, it is one that we as a failed society have created - yet condemn.
Toke, HJW It seems impossible to me to debate the issue of when life begins without passing judgement on each other. IMO, passing judgement on either side of this issue really serves no purpose and even dilutes or distracts from the real problem. I believe that our only hope of helping women who face this choice is to focus on what we as an evolving society can do to prevent even the perceived need for abortion. After all, I don't personally know of any woman who has aborted their baby without having gone through some level of anguish in their decision. Abortion may be legal but that doesn't make it any less painful a decision and it's one that no woman should ever have to make.
How do we begin to change our world so that we can truly honor all life?
posted on January 27, 2001 12:28:00 PM newmybiddness...
I don't presume to know "how to change our world." It's never been a world in which all life is honored, and I sincerely doubt it ever will be...no matter the good intentions. Made up of fallible humans, as it is.
I'm merely interested in what you and inside think of RU 486... And birth control.
posted on January 27, 2001 12:34:35 PM new
mybiddness
I had no intent to pass judgement in this case and I doubt that toke had that in mind
either.
You may notice that I haven't made any
comments directed to inside during this
thread. Actually, I think she is very
brave to handle this position alone.
I was simply curious to know how the pro life
believers consider the issue of birth control. Believe it or not, I really don't
know.
posted on January 27, 2001 12:55:23 PM newToke I agree that we're all fallible and I can't begin to tell you in how many ways I lead the pack... sigh...
But, I do think that we're capable of creating an environment that nurtures and honors every life. Part of the problem, for me at least, is that the abortion issue seems much larger than I am - it's overwhelming, isn't it? It's the old "what can I as only one person do to make a difference?" If we ever evolve to the point of making that the goal... who knows what could happen?
HJW I didn't think that you were passing judgement. It looked to me as if you were asking inside to pass judgement. My opinion on that wasn't meant to be an insult to either of you. Sometimes these boards make it impossible to convey my questions or comments in the light that they're meant. Oh wait... maybe that's just me with fumbling fingers/brain... I choose to blame it on the arena though.
As to the chosen methods of ending a life I don't think that one is any better or worse than another. And, I don't think I have a right to judge that choice either. How could I? I believe that the core of our being is purely spiritual and has nothing to do with whether we're in the womb for six minutes or on the earth for sixty years... it's all a blip - a snap of the fingers compared to what our real "lives" are about, IMO.
posted on January 27, 2001 01:17:54 PM newinside,
Thanks for that answer!
mybiddness
you state, . "It looked to me as if you were asking inside to pass judgement."
No, it was just a question. I understand how
statements made in this medium can be
misinterpreted.
I did some searches on the web and it seems that
the use of RU 486 is considered abortion
by Pro life believers. Some consider
birth control pills as abortion, claiming
that the pills cause abortion.
posted on January 27, 2001 01:25:22 PM newtoke & HJW I'm sorry if I came across as insulting... that wasn't my intention. I just don't feel that my opinion (or any one elses) as to when life begins really matters in the broader picture. That's just MHO... knee jerk reaction. I've injected my knee with a numbing solution and have instructed my feet to stay firmly on the ground.
This has been an interesting discussion... now I'm off to tend to my little guy with the flu bug. He keeps yelling "mom" and I'm yelling back - just a minute... perhaps my compassion should start here at home with my own little fella.
posted on January 27, 2001 01:28:08 PM new
Here's something that cracked me up today...unfunny as it really is.
I was picking up a prescription...with the usual interminable wait. We all got goofy...including the pharmacist. She had tears of laughter in her eyes as she told us that many insurance companies will pay for Viagra...but, not for birth control pills. Maybe everyone knows this but me...I was floored.
posted on January 27, 2001 01:30:56 PM new
mybidness,
I agree with so much of what you have said. I agree that we must work to help women keep from having the need for abortion by helping make birth control etc. more readily available and I agree with you when you say that you don't know anyone that had an abortion just for the fun of it. I also agree that we are along way from that and maybe even further because of Bush's latest handicapping places like Family Planning and OCAC programs that do so much good for women and many of them are not seeking an abortion to begin with.
Inside,
I am glad that you agree on birth control.
I am also waiting for you to answer my question about the "what if" I asked you last night after I tried to answer yours about late term abortions. Maybe it will help if we try to understand exactly what we can and can not agree on. I am trying to find points of agreement and better yet find ways to help woment NOT need an abortion unless medically necesary. That to me would be a perfect world but I do not think we are there.
I am sorry you think we are poor worthless posters who do not value our children. That is just it. We do but we also value a woman. We also know that the US is not ready and I am not sure they would be willing to take care of all the children that would be born.
To some of us abortion is more humane than waiting until term leaving that child in a trash dumpster or to see children in the US walking around slowly starving to death, malnourished, ridden with disease and no home, no family,some beaten, abused like we see in Ethopia and other countries. Could you handle this situation?
posted on January 27, 2001 01:32:43 PM new
I would be willing to bet that if men were the ones who gave birth, insurance companies *would* pay for the Pill. Heck, they'd probably be free...
posted on January 27, 2001 01:38:48 PM newbunnicula...
For sure. I know several women who had their tubes tied because their husbands were too terrified to get a vasectomy. Keeping in mind that vasectomies aren't major surgery and tubal ligation most definitely IS. Brother...
posted on January 27, 2001 02:30:41 PM new
Actually, it's not the insurance companies decision to pay or not to pay for a specific service - it's up to the employer who is buying the insurance companies services.
For instance, at the insurance company where I work, the particular insurance plan that I help administer covers all forms of birth control, including depo - and sterilization for both men and women. However, another plan (ie: insurance package purchased by an employer for their employees) may use the services of our insurance company, but not choose to cover these things.
If you have insurance that does not cover birth control, I would recommend you speak to your employer. This is a benefit, much like Well Child Care, or Preventative Services, which *can* be added to a plan upon renewal. Those are just two examples of benefits which, being important to employees, have become the norm in more and more benefit packages.
posted on January 27, 2001 02:30:51 PM newToke...Yes, you are right: the viagra thing would be funny if it were not so sad...It's a macho thing...a "boys will be boys" thingy, let the good ol'boys have a grand time, and let's control the "little woman..."keep her dependent and pregnant.
I wonder how Dubious Bush feels about "women working"...oooooooh! There is something for him to think about...Let's see, put the guy on PAID-by-insurance viagra, keep the li'l woman pregnant, and reverse the wage thing, so she won't even WANT to go to work....Three cheers for Father Knows Best, Leave It To Beaver and the 50/60's spirit...
********
Gosh Shosh!
I don't presume to know "how to change our world." It's never been a world in which all life is honored, and I sincerely doubt it ever will be...no matter the good intentions. Made up of fallible humans, as it is. 
