posted on September 21, 2000 09:09:51 PM new
I just visited the Sellers' Zone for the first time and I'm just wondering what the story on "the possee" is?
posted on September 21, 2000 09:58:54 PM new
Quite simply, it's a group of sellers who actively report TOS violating ads to Yahoo for removal. It takes 4 NW complaints to send an auction to Yahoo review so members share auction #'s to make sure the necessary ads reach 4 complaints.
There are many areas requiring attention-spam (multiple ads for same item or an item in the wrong category), outside adult (if you'd need to be over 18 to purchase it in a store, you must list it in Adult), items not allowable to list (guns, cigarettes, used underwear, lottery tickets, pirate software/video/games etc.) There are also many non-auctions (ads with nothing but Paypal or surf the web or whatever icon to simply earn the "seller" referrals. Those are not only reported to Yahoo but also to the websites the icons promote since they also violate every sites anti-spam policies).
I don't mean to get off on a rant but...I have seen people with nothing to sell who use their 1000 ads for 1000 Alladvantage links. That is ridiculous abuse of free ads. There is a group of several hundred teens who are all members of a certain game site who list thousands of ads trying to get everyone to visit that site as their guest so they can win a Gameboy or some such nonsense. This is an AUCTION site, people need to put something legit up for sale or get off. When the Posse is responsible for getting them booted I'm quite grateful for their efforts.
The Posse uses NW to actually "clean up the neighborhood" so legitimate rule abiding sellers ads don't get lost in the midst of the junk or illegal ads. It would be much better if Yahoo would police their site themselves but they don't. It's up to the members and at least some care enough to do what they can to make it a better site for all of us.
posted on September 21, 2000 10:21:11 PM new
Sounds like they are providing a needed service, but I am generally very wary of any type of vigalante group, online or off.
There's just so much potential for abuse.
The abuse usually starts by trying to silence critics. Is there any record of this type of activity with the group, or are they generally responsible about their actions?
posted on September 21, 2000 10:54:09 PM new
If you're suggesting someone in the group might say "Hey, I sell Barbie dolls, let's take out all the other Barbie sellers" I think that person would get booted from the Posse rather quickly. I really doubt anyone would dare suggest such an idea in the first place. If someone said "Hey, this ad is spam", you wouldn't just go blindly insert a spam complaint without checking out all of their ads first to be sure.
The NW reporters ID is protected from the seller, but certainly not from Yahoo employees. When Yahoo reviews ads they look at the ID's of the complainants. They do keep a record of how many NW complaints every member registers. I believe if they saw an ID wrongly complaining over and over they would take action to suspend that persons ID or issue them a warning.
In another thread here someone is being wrongly NW'd. I think if he keeps writing Yahoo to review the IDs of the people NW'ing him they would realize the pattern of abuse and stop it. The problem is that they give canned responses initially and you have to keep on them to get something done. My advice to everyone has always been to write Yahoo at least 3 times about anything. That seems to be the minimum requirement to get a human to look into your issue. When the humans do get involved the problem is generally corrected quickly.
posted on September 21, 2000 11:29:42 PM new
Ahhh.. I didn't realize that the identity of the person doing the NW is protected.
Not that I have the slightest bit of interest in getting involved in this, but if I went to the Sellers Zone and said "I think the possee is a bunch of busy-body bullies" (not that I do. I have no opinion. Just curious.) But if I went there and said something like that, would I suddenly find myself the victim of lots of NW's, regardless of the legitimacy of my auctions?
I guess your point about Yahoo checking on the identity of reporters would negate this a bit, but I would guess that these people would have multiple ID's.
I ask not because I have any particular impression of this particular group, but because this is generally how vigilante groups tend to work.
posted on September 22, 2000 12:36:34 AM new
The opinion that anyone who NW's (or reports to Safeharbor) is a busy-body &#%@# has been expressed in many chatrooms. It may well cause the posters ads to be checked but if there are no violations there's nothing the Posse can do (other than express disagreement with the posters opinion).
Still, no one should assume that any person disagreeing with them is in fact a Posse member. Plenty of sellers support and defend the Posse, but have no interest in doing the actual work. If you have read a few weeks worth of posts at SZ you have seen that people not associated with the Posse have had their ads wrongly NW'd. These are sellers who have simply stated support for the cause, not bashed it. They have likely been assumed to be Posse members and were unjustly retaliated against based on that assumption. So it actually seems the opposite of what you suggest, if you go post at SZ you think the Posse is good you would get unfairly NW'd. Strange but true.
posted on September 22, 2000 07:01:25 AM new
Thanks for the info. Very interesting, and definately strange.
I tried to wade through the posts at the Sellers Zone, but the format seems extremely tedious. I could never find the beginning of a thread, and when I did, I couldn't follow.
I'll give it another shot now that my mind is a little fresher.
posted on September 22, 2000 09:14:06 AM new
Just a note: I am not a member of the posse, but someone may have thought I was and started NWing all my auctions. It is the posse who put themselves on the line. When they have a question about the legality of an auction (I'm talking about the gray areas, not the ones that are obvious) they usually email the seller or put a comment in the auction (only the seller sees the comment unless he responds and then it becomes public). I have gotten an inquiry at one time and I have seen discussions on the seller zone. Sometimes the "target" gets mad and starts NWing all the auctions of people who he believes belong to the posse. I have emailed Yahoo at least a dozen times telling them this annonymous NWing is not a good idea and last night I finally got a canned message explaining what NW means. Thanks a lot yahoo.
posted on September 22, 2000 05:31:33 PM new
I dont believe in trouble makeing for other sellers either But for the most part the internet is self controled and self policed.
If you watch and listen you will read and hear the goverenment saying we must control ourselves or they will step in more then they already have.
nearly 8 years for me on the internet here and self policeing has worked fairly well. the absents of goverment is takeing responceabltiy for your self but every now and then ones self needs a push to keep in line better to have a neighborhood watch then 9 million goverment regulations.
posted on September 22, 2000 06:26:16 PM new
dman, I gotta agree with you on government intervention, but...
Let's compare an online auction house to a shopping mall (not a great comparison, but bear with me...)
Malls do not rely on the government to control their shoppers. And they don't have roaming groups of vigalantes. They hire security guards.
Personally, I think Yahoo should do the equivalent and hire people to police the site so that there is no need for groups like the Possee.
But, the money for it would have to come from somewhere. It's really unfortunate that the net culture is currently in a state where everyone expects nearly everything to be free. If people would focus on the value that they receive instead, many of these problems would disappear.
posted on September 22, 2000 09:49:17 PM new
Neighborhood watch is one thing, vigilante Posse's are a whole different kettle of fish. The site is set up so that if someone comes across a non legitimate listing it is easy to report it, it is NOT designed for folks to gang up on what they consider a non legitimate listing. I am amazed that Yahoo lets this go on, and find it absolutely disgusting - nothing like a little mob mentality!!! INCREDIBLE!!!! -Rosalinda
TAGnotes - daily email synopsis about the Online Auction Industry
http://www.egroups.com/group/TheAuctionGuildnotes
posted on September 23, 2000 11:47:38 AM new
As I stated above the issue that concerns me is people with hundreds of spam and non-auction listings. All I do is email Yahoo direct about them. I'm certainly not spending my time clicking hundreds of ads but if the Posse has 4 members that want to I certainly don't object. The end result is the ads get removed either way.
Before NW began I emailed Yahoo direct about illegal ads and I still do. It's no different than eBay safeharbor which only requires a complaint email from one member.
I never thought NW was a good idea in the first place since it took 4 people to get Yahoo to review one ad. It was Yahoo's fault for making people think "ganging up" was necessary with that rule. (It's not actually necessary because members can email direct.) It's also their fault for not policing their own site. They have come up with some very strange ideas about how to run an auction site, most of them bad.
If people (Posse member or not) are abusing the NW feature to harass sellers who don't have illegal ads then Yahoo should scrap the whole program.
posted on September 23, 2000 04:02:00 PM new
Hello. I felt that it was about time that an actual Posse member spoke here. Kasmoon, who has spoken quite well for us, but who is NOT one of our members, is correct. We do NOT specifically target the auctions of competing sellers in our selling categories. That would be totally against the spirit of what we're trying to accomplish. We are trying to enable the auctions of legitimate sellers to be seen, by elminating as much of the site "clutter" as possible. If someone has 100 listings, all for th exact same item, and you have one listing for this item, how likely is it that yours will be seen by your potential bidders? Also, we are helping to clear ot the "nonsense non aucions", evidently mostly run by bored teens with WAY too much time on their hands, and all of those annoying All Advantage/Spedia/Paypal/Myecamp, etc. non auctions, as well as non auction want ads and website redirect only non auctions. One seller alone had over 2,500 such non auctions in five separate i.d.'s, spanning virtually all conceivable categories. We also NW adult out of the adult area. XXX tapes have been found by our members in Barbie, Pokemon, Sega, and Nintendo. We also deal with such miscategorizations as knives in the toys and games categories. And also flat out TOS violations; there is a very specific list of what may not be sold on Yahoo auctions. We don't NW an auction as spam unless the original poster posts multiples of the item by the same seller to show that it is, in fact, spam. Yahoo does know who we all are, as they e-mail "actions taken" notices to all of us. The seller NW'ed is not privy to this information for obvious reasons but, if we had been incorrectly using the feature, Yahoo would have prevented us from using it further long ago. And, no, our critics don't find themselves the targets of unwarranted NW's; as Kasmon said, our supporters do. Good HAS already come of our activities. Potential bidders are not as readily subjected to "used" children's underwear, body fluids, other offensive items, or tens of thousands of non auctions spam now that we're extant. We are NOT some crazed bunch of overzealous vigilantes going off half-cocked, as others seem to be attempting to make us out to be. We are responsible, mature, long-time sellers with a mission, to assist in the cleaning up of Yahoo for the benefit of all users. We enjoy the use of the site, we appreciate the fact that it's free, and we wish to contribute back to it in our own small way. And, for this we seem to be receiving an inordinate amount of flak. Why? I have no idea, other than that there seems to be a misconception about us, our members, and our activities. We are more unpaid volunteer security cards working overtime than vigilantes. There is no "mob mentality" involved. I have to disagree with Kasmoon on his last point, however, that the entire NW program should be scrapped becuse of its misuse by a few individuals. A better solution, I feel, would be for Yahoo to raise the minimum feedback required to NW to five, or, perhaps, even ten, rather than the one at which they currently have it set. Respectfully, GEM
posted on September 23, 2000 04:52:30 PM new
rnrgroup,
>>"I am amazed that Yahoo lets this go on, and find it absolutely disgusting - nothing like a little mob mentality!!! INCREDIBLE!!!!"<<
Your comments go to show, how a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. Why is getting NWed by a group of dedicated members of Yahoo! auctions, any different than four different people running up on the same violators and NWing in a separate manner?
I'll give you a good example of why that doesn't work, most of the time. I had my grandson sitting on my lap when I logged on to Yahoo! Auctions one day. There right on the home page were three thumbnails, one of which was a fully nude woman exposed in a XXX video. An adult auction, out of the adult category. It was listed in automotive sales? I checked the starting date, it had been running TWO days in this category, and didn't have ONE NW against it?
Obviously the majority of people do not care? So, a group of responsible, honest, caring, HARD working members of Yahoo! Auctions, (with extensive sales knowledge), are making up for that apathy. As GEM stated, Yahoo! knows who is doing the NWing on any auction. They won't openly admit it, but I'm sure they are grateful for the help to rid their site of the scum who are on it. If someone were abusing this right, they would terminate their membership, post haste.
They are not vigilantes. Vigilantes take the law into their own hands. In this case, the NW was made available by Yahoo! to help report vioplators of the TOS. It was made available to all members with a feedback of +1. It helps all, except those it catches in violation of the TOS.
Long live the Posse, and I support them in carrying on in their worthwhile endeavors. I will do the same, in my small way, to help them NW those that deserve it. After all, it is our site to use, and we all need to help keep it clean.
posted on September 23, 2000 05:04:50 PM new
I NW auctions that flagrantly ignore TOS when I happen on them, and as much as I can see potential for abuse by a so called "vigilante" group - in practice it is almost a necessity.
When you run into these listings there are often many hundreds of them and if it takes 4 reports to get them pulled - well that makes the odds of getting them shut down nearly nil. I mean if I NW 1 of the 100 of them and someone else does #3/100 and someone else #62/100, several auctions will have 1 report, but 4 reports never acrue on any of the auctions, and so it all ammounts to nothing. In cases like this, you really do need a crew to be effective.
Perhaps I am confused and this is not how it works. If this is the case, someone please give me the plot.
posted on September 23, 2000 05:59:36 PM new
I am not a member of the posse but I support their actions. They are not vigilantes. They are a group dedicated to getting the junk out of Yahoo. Since it takes 4 NWs before someone at Yahoo looks at an auction, one person working alone can't accomplish it. With a group working together, they can call decide that the auction is a violation and they can work together to NW it and get it removed. This is not vigilante action. This is very responsible action.
The problem is that Yahoo gave NW power to any yutz with a 1 rating. Fakers with fake ids are giving themselves 1 ratings and then NWing folks just for fun. You dont get any message if your auction only has 1 NW, but when you want to resubmit it, you cant. Someone has been NWing my auctions minutes before they close. This is their idea of fun. My emails to Yahoo are ignored.
Stop using the excuse that Yahoo doesnt have the money to deal with this. They are making changes to the site constantly. Most of these changes are stupid ones. If they have the money to implement changes, why can't they at least start with the ones that most of the sellers asked for instead of the ones most people dont want? How hard is it to restrict NW to folks with at least 5 rating? It is not a matter of money. I think the folks running Yahoo have the same concept of customer service as the folks running Paypal. I'm surprised Yahoo didnt just buy Paypal instead of launching their own service.
posted on September 23, 2000 06:12:49 PM new
I agree with you there Yisgood, as you know. They either have to raise the feedback rating to NW, or stop the practice of no relists if you have NW submissions against you. I prefer the later, as not to discriminate against newer responsible members. Or, they could also terminate ID accounts of those who are making false NW submissions.
posted on September 23, 2000 08:02:11 PM new
GreenEyedMonkey,
Thanks for your post. It was very informative.
The point about requiring a higher feedback rating for NW'ing makes a lot of sense to me.
Also, I think Yisgood makes an excellent point that Yahoo should concentrate their resources on making changes that actually improve the site.
I think it would have been hilarious if Yahoo had bought Paypal. Can you imagine Yahoo logos showing up overnight on half of Ebay's auctions? Now that's something that would convince me to "upgrade!"
-----------------------------------
All rights reserved. All wrongs reversed.
posted on September 23, 2000 09:38:44 PM newyisgood,
I think that a NW on an auction listing NO LONGER means you can't resubmit it when it ends. It might have at one time, but I don't think it doesn't NOW.
I NW'd my own auction (signing in under my second ID), as both "belongs in a different category" and "adult outside the adult category". I then closed the auction each time and tried to relist to see if the NW complaint would prevent me from relisting the auction.
IT DIDN'T. I was able to resubmit the auction BOTH times (even with the "adult" complaint).
posted on October 19, 2000 02:54:32 PM new
The possee member said "there is no mob mentality" involved. Yet, the statement was made that before action is taken by Yahoo, at least four neighborhood watch complaints must be received.
The statement continued, saying that if one possee member finds what he or she interprets as a violation, other "possee" members are emailed until the requiste number of agreements/complaints has been reached. Kinda sounds like "mob mentality" to me, after all these four people didn't reach this decision individually, but conspired to have the auction reported.
Seems to me as if only one "possee" member finds something wrong with an auction, the others go along willingly so that each and every Possee member weilds a lot of power, which is subject to abuse (and I suspect that power often been abused).
But then, I ain't too bright.
Note: On the other hand, I am bright enough not to use Yahoo for buying or selling until they disband this vigilante group (Possee).
posted on October 19, 2000 02:58:56 PM new
One more thing - For those of you who don't agree with viligante groups, remember one thing - there is power in numbers.
Email Yahoo, tell them of your displeasure and let them know you will not be using their site until they disband the Possee and start to do their job of policing the site themselves.
Yahoo isn't exactly hurting for money, they could afford to do this.
posted on October 19, 2000 03:08:03 PM new
That's fine jada, but I expect that there are plenty of buyers who appreciate not having endure the loading of page after page of some sellers spam, and I am in *that* group.
I have no idea what/when/how much the posse is responsible for, but can state unequivocally that Yahoo is a better site to shop since they instituted the NW.
posted on October 19, 2000 03:16:18 PM new
Verymodern - Do you feel that it is fair to target a particular seller's auctions and have Yahoo make a negative decision towards that auction without the seller ever being notified that NW has targeted him/her and has certainly never given them a chance to defend themselves.
Kinda reminds me of a saying I saw somewhere, I think it goes "the police came and took away my neighbors and I said nothing -- then the police came to take me away...."
Will you feel the same when one of your auctions is targeted by the NW group? That statement "if you're innocent, you have nothing to worry about", kinda reminds me of a police state.
posted on October 19, 2000 03:44:40 PM new
jada - I just see it differently. I do not think that the posse has any power beyond bringing a seller to Yahoo's attention, and that is not very special. I am one gal and can do the same thing by using the abuse link.
Yahoo has all the power as they should. They are paying the bill, and can do what they please. It is voluntary for anyone to log on their site for whatever purpose, so I don't see a problem.
I appreciate that people on both sides feel passionately that they are defending something critical, but to me this is not the case. NW is working, and I am glad of it.
As for getting NW'ed myself, in my mind, Yahoo lets me put up a slew of auctions for free and only asks that I follow a couple (ONE?) of rules and I don't have a problem with that. I adhere to their guidelines kind of like I don't sh** where I eat. It is a matter of respect, this is a big thing with Italians.
posted on October 19, 2000 03:58:47 PM new
Verymodern - LOL, that's the very same comment Tony Soprano made to the gangleader in Italy when she was coming on to him.
Another thing that crossed my mind was this. Some of the people who object to the NW group must be buyers and sellers on Yahoo, (as the person above whose auctions are unfairly targeted).
What's to keep those buyers and sellers from organizing a group of Anti-Neighborhood Watch Yahoo buyers and sellers? These people could very well organize and watch the NW's auctions like a hawk, looking for even the tiniest, most innocous (can't spell that) violation and reporting them to Yahoo.
Could get to the point where no one could or would trust anyone and each group would always be doing battle with the other. Of course Anti-Anti-NW groups could form as well as Pro-NW groups (supporting the NW force).
Could get scary down the road.
Here's an even scarier thought. Maybe I'll buy enough on Yahoo to get some points and join one of these groups myself.
posted on October 19, 2000 04:09:47 PM new
Jada: U are full of contridictions. You say
you don't believe in viligante groups, but then "remember one thing - there is power in numbers".
So you want to form your own viligante group against the posse, is that correct?
Numbers are o.k. to band together when it's something you want?
Then you say "
Do you feel that it is fair to target a particular seller's auctions and have Yahoo make a negative decision towards that auction without the seller ever being notified that NW has targeted him/her and has certainly never given them a chance to defend themselves. "
What makes you think Yahoo Makes a NEGATIVE
decision without reason. Do you think they are puppets and just respond to NW's without looking into the matter AND emailing the seller that they have been NW'd.
You make no sense at all. As has been stated over and over again, the OLD method, yahoo had zero tolerence it seemed and if a seller was caught spamming by any method the auctions were just zapped without warning.
Since the NW started, warnings ARE GIVEN FIRST. Get your facts straight, will ya.
posted on October 19, 2000 04:11:24 PM new
oh, and if you avoid Yahoo because of NW and how a seller cannot defend themselves, then how can you justify shopping ebay with their VERO out of control?
posted on October 19, 2000 04:16:03 PM new
One more thing, like VeryModern says with all the free things Yahoo gives us, I for one am very happy to follow the rules they set up for us also. Wouldn't things be so much simplier if ALL the sellers did the same. Just follow the rules and there is nothing to worry about, heck there wouldn't even be a need for NW.
posted on October 19, 2000 04:51:09 PM new
jada my point here is that the power of the posse is grossly overstated. I feel their existence is triggering a response in people that is off the mark.
Reality check here...
Somewhere on Yahoo I am guessing that there is one (could it be two) people who field the NW complaints. Okay so if I have buyer named "4573" bidding a zillion of my auctions, I would notice this. I would become aware of them.
No doubt Mr/s YahooNW overseer recognizes the id's of posse members. NO DOUBT. We live in an efficient age. If these people were turning in sellers without cause, the person with their finger on the trigger would be aware of it. Cry wolf, how many times? This controller would see these id's stacked on and auction and can you say "block delete?"
Point is that if the posse abuses their power, they will lose it utterly, and I reiterate here that feel their power is supremely limited in the first place.
I want to be clear that I am not defending them. I am defending NW and I am defending Yahoo. I was compelled to write because I keep reading how people are tarring Yahoo when nothing and I mean NOTHING is going on at Yahoo that is not going on at Ebay to the nth power and it just plain doesn't make any sense. You wnat to talk ABUSE? Talk about VERO.
