posted on January 25, 2006 02:08:49 PM
To be on the safe side, I would get two seperate independent appraisals from experts in the field of fine art. I would recommend a nationally recognized expert such as Ralphie's Fine Art Museum in Jacksonville, Florida, or Classic's Accredited Appraisal Service in upstate New York.
If Murphy's law is correct, everything East of the San Andreas Fault will slide into the Atlantic
posted on January 25, 2006 02:41:33 PM
You don't have to have an expert in Eskimo prints. You need an expert to attest to the fact that when you trim a print, you've decreased the value. Any reputable art dealer should be able to do that for you.
Cheryl
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
posted on January 25, 2006 03:25:38 PM
I think the judge who presides over small claims court has seen enough,if he does not,I can produce some writings on such.
The idea of getting issue resolved is to cut thru all the #*!@ and bureaucracy and come to a resolution.
I just like the idea of dragging him to court and wipe that half ass smile off his face.
/ lets all stop whining !! /
posted on January 25, 2006 06:41:48 PM
If you don't get an "independent" opinion of the amount of the dimished value, be prepared for the judge to say "Give him the print and he'll give you what you paid for it."
It stands to reason that he/she won't "take your word for" the difference in value. It's all or nothing unless you hand over the print.
In your explanation of the car repair following an accident, you didn't include the possibility of a judge taking the owner's word for the value of the repair. The repair facility or the claims adjuster would be the "independent" opinion. That would be the parallel here.
posted on January 25, 2006 07:10:40 PM
I found out he does not have 2 stores,he has another business totally unrelated to selling artwork and he is not successful,successful people do not antagonise customers.
He does not know much about art,the guy who is doing the framing for me now used to work for him until he hired his own man to work on site.
He does not know this guy he hired take it upon himself to give me plexi glass,he and I agreed on regular glass which is cheaper.
The sales invoice listed all the works to be done in detail-acid free matting,museum mounting,regular glass and wooden frame,it even quoted the stock number of the acid free paper and I have the stock sample from another source .I know he did not use the acid free paper as the paper does not match.
It really does not matter how much is the appraisd value,the price I paid for the print is what the current value is.
I have been collecting eskimo prints since 1972.
The bottom line is -The guy he hired to do the work screwed up the print and as the owner he takes the brunt and tried to bluff his way out of it.
He may not even show up in court,time wasted in court is time not scamming customers,think about it.
I really think he does not use acid free paper for matting,how many consumers know the difference,how many know if the print is mounted correctly,until years later when they want to reframe the print??
Museum mounting is mounting print in such a way so it can be removed without altering/damaging the print,and using glue gun to glue 4 corners of the print to the mounting board is NOT MUSEUM MOUNTING.
Acid free matting and acid free mounting board contains little or no acid ,this is a way to make sure no acid will leak and damage the print,I have an old print from 1972 which is not acid free matted,I know what I am talking about.
/ lets all stop whining !! /
[ edited by hwahwa on Jan 25, 2006 07:17 PM ]
posted on January 25, 2006 07:19:48 PM
I've taken three people to SC court, won all three cases & never collected a dime.
You pay filing fees up front, 85.00 each in my cases, you win, but after that your on your own to try & collect.
Or, for another 65.00 you can have the sheriff go to the loser's house & make a list of his poessions for sheriff sale, but here's the kicker. The loser has the right to refuse to let the sheriff enter his home.
Now you have added another 150.00 to your losses.
We have owned a team cleaning business for 20 years & three times, in the past, we have sued clients for non payment. My son, in MD, has the same business & he has also sued & never collected. We no longer bother trying to collect & just accept the loss rather than adding useless filing fees. In all cases the defendant ignored the suepena & never showed up in court & the court didn't go looking for them either. You win automatically. Big deal.
But it's really you lose & both the deadbeat client & the court win because it would be a miracle if you ever get paid.
Small Claims Court is a fake, in Pennsylvania & Maryland anyway.
Your case would make an interesting one for Judge Judy & if you win, & you will, you will get paid. Think about it.
posted on January 26, 2006 05:32:34 AM
Let us know how this turns out. I really am sorry this happened to you. Personally, I would not have left behind my proof (i.e., frame, matting, glass), though. Now it will be your word against his since you now only have the print as evidence. He could now easily say he used acid free matting (i.e., you aren't an expert so how would you know?) I would check with the BBB to see if any other complaints were filed against this framer. It could help your case.
BTW, a claims adjuster would be considered an expert in the court's eyes.
I hope you aren't upset about us telling you to get an appraisal or an expert opinion about trimming. You did ask for our opinions.
mcjane
LOL, about Judge Judy. You do have a point. I've seen plenty of drycleaners in her courtroom.
Cheryl
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
posted on January 26, 2006 07:09:04 AM
I have some evidence,the print is still glued to the mounting board which is evidence he did not use acid free mounting and he did not use museum mounting.
Filing fee is 45 in Texas ,there is also another 5 dollars fee??
True,I may win the case but cant collect the money,but with a retail store open 7 days a week with oil paintings and frames and mirrors etc,it wont be difficult for the sherriff to seize some of his stock.
Cheryl,
I am not upset over the issue of independant appraisal,but since this is a recent purchase,the price is pretty much determined by what I paid.
If he is a good businessman,he would be looking into how he can improve on his shop to make customer keeps coming back,in this case,I have 11 prints which need to be framed and more in the future,and his framer definitely needed to know more about framing and matting techniques and not to take upon himself to switch material.
/ lets all stop whining !! /
posted on January 26, 2006 08:55:31 AM
I'm not trying to belabor the appraisal issue - as you seem to be very against it, but I did want to point out - that you don't need to get the painting appraised for its original value - just for its current value - in order to assess damage.
How much are you going to be suing him for?
You'll need to prove how much he's damage he'd caused - you can't do that unless you know what the print is worth now.
I'm not the first person to write this - but you've always answered that you just bought the painting, so you know what is was worth - that's totally not the point -
posted on January 26, 2006 09:35:54 AM
Tabletop - He's the painting expert and he's been to court many times and won based on his vast knowledge and communication skills.
posted on January 26, 2006 10:10:03 AM
The expert appraisers are in Canada and it would cost me 100 to have it appraised ,it would have to be via email picture,I am not going to send this print on mounting board (and it is not a small print) to Canada and back,it would cost another 100 dollars in shipping.
And who knows what kind of damage can incur during transit??
This print costs me 245 last year ,it is new old stock(1972) but there are a few more copies available at the same price as we speak,so you tell me how much is this print worth??
I dont want him to have this print as he would butcher it some more and sell it to anyone,so I will be asking for no more than what I paid for,I have not decided how much yet.
I am waiting to hear from my credit card issuer on the chargeback of the work done,if I lose ,then I will take him to court on not just the damage of the print,but the work he did as well.
This is not MONA LISA but some of us do appreciate this type of arts and support the artists ,I have no intention of getting rich on this law suit.
Most of us are ebay sellers,tell me what appraised value means on Ebay??
How many of us have laughed when someone said this diamond necklace or painting or chinaware is appraised at 10k or 100k and sold on Ebay for 1/10 of the appraised value.
/ lets all stop whining !! /
posted on January 26, 2006 10:27:52 AM
if you want to know how much is the print worth now?
shall we drop this to Ebay and let the Ebay bidders decide in 7 days??
What I am trying to say is that an almost identical print can be had for 295 canadian dollars,so the most I can ask is 295 Canadian dollars.
Unless you folks see something different,well,I would like to hear someone tells me perhaps I can retire to the French Riviera on the settlement?
Fluff,
you can move on and sell your silver jewelry for 1 /100 of the retail value and it does not seem to bother you.
/ lets all stop whining !! /
posted on January 26, 2006 11:04:54 AM
$CD295? What is that like $5 US?
Ron
"I'm so depressed. My doctor refused to write me a
prescription for Viagra. He said it would be like putting
a new flagpole on a condemned building."
posted on January 26, 2006 11:06:43 AM
Canadian 295 was US 245 when I paid my credit card bill.
I must confess I do have a problem with appraised value,may be I am getting old and cynical,I have seen and heard so many people telling me this item is appraised at xxx or so and so tell me I should get YYY.
/ lets all stop whining !! /
[ edited by hwahwa on Jan 26, 2006 11:10 AM ]
posted on January 26, 2006 06:22:18 PM
well,if you use your credit card to purchase,you could do chargeback.
Or if he has a store and the sheriff can move in and seize some of his stock and sell it in auction.
Or if he has a house,you can slap a lien on it.
Or you can embarrass him in the public,at work if he has the means to pay you.
/ lets all stop whining !! /
posted on January 26, 2006 06:41:07 PM
There are many ways to collect on a judgement. In California, after a judgment is entered, the creditor can immediately file to bring the debtor back to SMC for an examination of assets hearing. You can levy against any asset the debtor has with a very few exceptions. Wages, bank accounts and merchandise from businesses are common targets. There are even proceedures to do a "till tap" or a "pick pocket" seizure. The most common, and the first thing to do is file an abstract of judgement with the county clerk against any real estate he owns. You may have to wait till he dies or until he tries to sell the property, but you will eventually collect it.
A few years ago, a person in the Bay area got a judgement against Wells Fargo Bank in small claims court. They either ignored it or lost it in the shuffle, but when they didn't pay, he hired a moving company and went with the sheriff to their main office and seized their stage coach (the same one you see in their T.V. commercials) which they had on display, and had it hauled to storage. Needless to say, the media had a ball with it, and it didn't take WF long to cough up the money for the judgement, fees, movers, and storage charges.
If Murphy's law is correct, everything East of the San Andreas Fault will slide into the Atlantic
posted on January 26, 2006 06:41:46 PM
You do realize that the longer you sit on your heiny and refuse to do anything about this matter, the more unlikely it becomes that it will be resolved to your satisfaction.
In fact, I think you've passed that point already.
posted on January 28, 2006 10:45:09 PM
LADY,
You sure dont sound like much of a collector or a lawyer.
Thanks for your input anyway.
/ lets all stop whining !! /
posted on January 29, 2006 09:50:52 PM
If your car were rear ended and you had to take the case to court, you would be required to present an estimate for repair of the damage (maybe more than 1 estimate.) The judge cannot assess what the monetary damage is without this estimate. You cannot say I paid $ 20,000 for the car new and now the trunk needs to be fixed so I want $ 5000. You need some kind of proof of the cost to repair the damage. Likewise, you need to present proof to the judge (who is not usually an expert on art) from a qualified expert that the damage has reduced the value of the print by X. In a court of law, proof is what is needed. Even if the judge were sympathetic to your case, he/she may not have any choice but to dismiss without proof.
posted on January 29, 2006 10:13:13 PM
Of all the times I have been in SMC, and there's been quite a few, I have never seen a judge enter a judgement, other than a default judgement, from the bench. They will always take the case "under advisement" and notify the parties by mail of their decision. While he is reviewing the case, he will rely 99% on the written documents in the file folder, including his notes, and 1 % on his memory of the testimony. I have to agree with the others, there had better be some written documentation in that file folder that details the extent of the damage to the print, and it needs to be from a knowledgeable person. Not necessarily a $150.00 appraisal from an expert, but a simple handwritten note from a credible and knowledgeable individual will suffice. Without it, you are wasting time and money on filing fees because you will lose the case.
If Murphy's law is correct, everything East of the San Andreas Fault will slide into the Atlantic
posted on January 29, 2006 11:53:57 PM
Kozersky picked up his words and left. Good Move.
This thread was out of control and it became obvious very quickly that OP did not come asking for advise.
OP, sorry you are having the problem, but if you handled the store owner the way you have handled the members on this board, I am not surprised by your current situation.
Posters here are sincerely trying to be helpful, there is no reason to attack them just because you do not understand what they are trying to communicate.
posted on February 16, 2006 11:55:07 AM
I have mailed a letter to him according to the roadmap given on -steps to taking someone to small claims court,with return signature.
I will be filing with the court soon.
By the way,my credit card issuer gave me 88 dollars out of its own pocket as it cant do anything for me since he refused to issue a credit receipt.
/ lets all stop whining !! /
