posted on February 19, 2007 06:43:03 PM
HMMM Fluff - how do YOU know whether or not I have lost money on the sale? I guess I would be in a better position to judge that than you wouldn't I?
I know exactly how much I have invested and how much I have paid in fees and I also know that ebay is (for now) the best place to sell my postcards. I am selling more with higher ASP than ever before.
"Lost opportunity" assumes that there is another venue where I could sell items sooner - there currently is no such place.
I don't believe for a second that it costs ebay more to host my items than the fees I have paid.
I am not getting my shorts in a bunch about this auctionbytes article either. I think it's a little premature to predict the intent of the statement or how it will be implemented.
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Your comments to Neglus were out of line. You've shown time-and-time again that you do not understand the market dynamics of the paper ephemera seller. I'll try to explain it in terminology that you seem to understand. Honestly, it can be reduced to fundamental supply and demand principles. For most paper ephemera, there is a VERY limited demand for any particular piece. Yet, that demand does exist. Supply is also typically very limited for any piece. Limited supply typically can withstand higher pricing.
The trick is matching the limited demand with the limited supply... keeping in mind the costs involved (including labor, item cost)... and using those costs to dictate a price that will be sustainable by the market, and still generate a substantial profit.
It is also extremely important to keep a HUGE inventory available to be purchased at any given time. That way the population that makes up the "limited demand" group will be more likely to make multiple purchases. It is NOT necessary to have rapid turnover of merchandise for this business model to suceed. Rather, your revenue just needs to exceed your total expenses (cost, labor, storage space)... and bring in more money than standard investments would.
I get the feeling that you tend not to respect the business sense of some of us paper ephemera sellers. I can assure you that most of the regulars that post here on Vendio are NOT stupid. We just understand our market better than you do.
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posted on February 19, 2007 08:55:24 PM
Those of us who sell one-of-a-kind items, ephemera mostly, would agree with Neglus and eauctionmgt, I think. What we do is very different from the order-a-bale-of-one-thing and sell-it-over-and-over.
I just sold a book last week for $227; my son asked what I'd paid for it, and I said either 25 or 50 cents. That made something like 22,000% profit, acc. to him. Old church bulletins and the like aren't readily available, and I agree that we need to list for longer than normal, frequently, to find the right set of eyes to buy it.
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Thought for the day: Men are like fine wine . . They start out as grapes; and it's up to the women to stomp the crap out of them until they turn into something acceptable to have dinner with. ~Dave Barry
posted on February 19, 2007 09:15:07 PMhow do YOU know whether or not I have lost money on the sale?
Simple. You've had it for over a year. It still went for a low dollar amount. Even if you got it for free, it's been taking up space, both physically and virtually. Also, see below paragraph starting with "I assumed nothing."
Perhaps a basic example would help illustrate lost opportunity, and I'll take postcards out of the equation because you folks continue to erroneously believe there is something fundamentally unique about your business. There isn't. In fact, I'm afraid that your belief is keeping a number of you folks -- not just posties -- from maximizing your investments.
But on to the example:
You buy a widget for $1. You sell it for $4 within a month of listing it. For simplicity's sake we'll stipulate your total expense for this $4 sale (eBay fees, PayPal fees, cost of goods, etc.) is exactly $2.
Lather, rinse, repeat. 11 more times.
At the end of the 12th cycle you have (how much, class?). That's right. $4,096.
I assumed nothing. Based on the information you gave -- "Most sold for less than $10" and other tidbits -- I could see that in any event you didn't sell any postcards for more than $75 each and that the oldest ones probably went for less than $10.
I suppose I could go look at your closed sales but I don't care that much.
Your posting, I think, was an effort to counter the notion of unproductive listings but in truth you simply confirmed it.
Oh, one other thing.
I'm not suggesting that there are better places to sell what you sell. I'm suggesting there are better methods.
posted on February 19, 2007 09:52:25 PM
Fluff, as usual, your stipulations are wrong. You are way out of your breadth here and had better back off. Check Neglus' recent sales and you will find several over $100. You are outside of your field of expertise and should not condemn sales you are ignorant about.
[ edited by pixiamom on Feb 19, 2007 09:59 PM ]
posted on February 20, 2007 01:07:20 AM
The sales I cited are of course only my "non-productive" store listings. My auction listings achieve a higher ASP and were not among the sales I discussed in my post. I am satisfied with my auction and Fixed Price core listings.
Your cycle analogy would be ideal. I am all for it. In a commodity market I am sure it is even an attainable goal. Not so in the collectible (or at least in the paper) market.
Sell through in my category, even among the most successful sellers, doesn't even come close to yours. The cycle thing ain't going to happen. You can go 12 cycles if you want but all you will have at the end is a gigundo ebay bill.
Don't get me wrong - I am a strong believer in listing in Core but at some point you have to do something else with unsold inventory and the ebay store is the perfect place for the items that WILL SELL (not junk) eventually.
My store postcards do not take up space - 8000 of them fit on my dining room table. They do not require any labor - once listed they relist automatically until sold or ended. As for space on ebay ...give me a break. All of those 8,000 listings are loaded with keywords pointing right to ebay. They earn their keep.
I have tried the $.99 listing approach before. It doesn't work. There are always new dealers who begin their selling career using this approach (must be in a "get rich selling postcards on eBay" book)- they are gone within a month or two. Sell through is no better for $.99 listings than it is for reasonably priced items. In fact, I think sell through is WORSE because collectors skip those listings and the only buyers are other dealers and assorted bottom feeders. Forget about charging inflated shipping with no combinio-no way-i-o. Doesn't work - won't work. I have watched competitors try this approach and their sales tanked and some long time dealers went out of business altogether.
Out of curiosity I did a Goofbay sales comparison between my sales over the last 30 days and one of my competitors who only runs core listings. I run about 300 auctions/FP lists and he usually runs about 1,000. My sales $ were more than double his and his fees must be double mine. No thanks.
So, do tell us Fluff (you know you are dying to), just what ARE these "better methods"?? I think you implied in another thread that you recently had found THE answer. So, what is it?
posted on February 20, 2007 06:02:57 AM
Charleen: Opportunity costs always implys the cost of doing one thing instead of doing something else. It is the cost of what you did not do, or the foregone opportunity.
So, your first assumption in neglus' business is that there is a foregone opportunity. Opportunity cost is not accounting cost (holding costs, time value of money invested in inventory that is not turning over, etc). I think you are trying to discuss marginal costs?? not opportunity costs.
Although it would be convenient, there is not a one-size-fits-all business model. Wonder why? The number of variables that go into developing a business. Each of those variables is a decision that the entrepreneur is constantly tweeking (variety vs concentration; debt vs equity; cost-leader vs differentiation). Each area of your business model contains a challenge, or an opportunity.
For paper dealers there are several tricks that allow them to maximize profits including the intangibles such as knowing your market, developing a clientele, integration (horizontal or vertical) through product add-ons.
posted on February 20, 2007 09:55:02 AM
Fluff....we can't all rip off Ebay by charging nothing for our items and then gouging on shipping costs.
I guess it works for trinket jewelry sellers, but for others the market is limited to people who have a true interest in the subject.
Neglus is one of the most successful postcard sellers around. I only wish I had her sell through and her monthly profit.
I'd wager a guess it would surpass yours if you weren't getting all that free money where you don't have to pay ebay fees!
Ebay makes far more per listing from her listings than from you and other $.01 to $.99 cent with excessive shipping sellers regardless of the sell through!
OK....Did I make my point? I know absolutely nothing about selling jewelry or how to do it best. My opinions are meaningless as I do not have the knowledge or years of trial and error to know how to do it successfully.
But, Fluff, you do not understand paper sellers. And, you obviously wouldn't be any better at it than I would be at selling jewelry. So, we should both restrict our comments to those areas where we know what we are talking about.
Ebay needs a little of everything and everything has it place. I do stand behind my comments. There are only a couple of postcard sellers who are more successful than Neglus and I do hold her as an expert in our field! I respect what she does and I know as long as she is making a nice profit there is hope for the rest of us!
[ edited by MYFAVORITES4U on Feb 20, 2007 10:27 AM ]
posted on February 20, 2007 10:07:17 AM
I don't think anyone has anything to fear about Ebay pulling unproductive listings.
I would place a bet that the statement about removing listings is nothing more than a cover-up for the dwindling listing totals on Ebay.com.
Unless specials are taking place the listing totals are near the 2002 levels. Now, Ebay can say they are lower by design so Wall Street won't get in an uproar over the decline.
posted on February 20, 2007 11:47:00 AM
My store postcards do not take up space - 8000 of them fit on my dining room table. They do not require any labor - once listed they relist automatically until sold or ended. As for space on ebay ...give me a break. All of those 8,000 listings are loaded with keywords pointing right to ebay. They earn their keep//////////////////////
Ebay does not look at a handful of sellers who are doing well,the fees it earned from these sellers have to be spread across those which do not sell and there are many items in ebay stores which languish for weeks,months and years.
These are the ones we are subsidising,something will be done about these items.
If Ebay shut down the store concept and go with auction only,some other sites will move in and expand,if there is money to be made.
I don't believe for a second that ANY listings from the eBay stores are being subsidized by other revenue sources. eBay is charging a minimum of $191.40 per year (monthly fee * 12) PLUS a minimum of $0.05 per listing. And what do they give you as far as storage for that? A little bit of html, and ONE picture. Anything else you either pay extra for, or host on your own. Sorry folks, but web hosting just isn't that expensive any more! Cost for storage has gone DOWN not up (as eBay seems to make us want to believe).
Stores have always been a profitable venture for eBay (and at one time were extremely profitable for sellers as well). Now... are they profitable enough for the greedy executives that want to bleed sellers dry of every ounce of profit?... well the recent fee hikes answer that one.
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posted on February 20, 2007 12:34:57 PM
Well,then look at the opportunity cost angle-does Ebay want to be known as the cyber storage for all the stuff which dont sell?or are resources (both human and $$) better deployed to host something more EXCITING,FAST MOVING AND god forbids,could even be MORE PROFITABLE and keeps the name Ebay ON the forefront of internet commerce!
[ edited by hwahwa on Feb 20, 2007 01:09 PM ]
posted on February 20, 2007 12:56:09 PM
I thought eBay wanted to be known as the site where:
"no matter what IT is you can find IT on eBay"
Kind of hard to do that if you eliminate slow-selling items and only allow fast-selling high profit items.
Personally, I think that eBay knows that it's facing some serious trouble in the future... but doesn't know exactly what needs to be done to fix it. The magic has been lost... and increasing store fees certainly didn't bring it back!!! Ecommerce is becoming much easier for the individual (as well as small-to-large business) to implement. Less-and-less people NEED eBay to succeed in Ecommerce. Declining numbers seem to support that.
I think it will be interesting to see exactly what eBay decides IS an unproductive listing... but I think when they explain it, I'll be glad that I've taken the time to set up my own website.
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posted on February 20, 2007 01:14:03 PM
no matter what IT is you can find IT on eBay"
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Good points,both Ebay and Yahoo are asking themselves what future holds for them?
Now I recall there is the AMZN Zshop,if anything should go first,it is the Zshop!
All these could spell opportunity for bidville,epier,overstock!
posted on February 20, 2007 02:08:17 PM
Ebay has changed so much from its beginnings. Years ago it was mostly antiques and collectibles. Now most are new discounted items. There is nothing wrong with that, and that is what Ebay did when they changed some of their models to try to attract the big guns. Now, they are trying to rethink their objectives, going back to the CORE. Ya can't go back.
I have noticed that so many listings even in the auction type are not really auctions. They end many times at the starting bid. That is the way things are now.
There are many different business models to suit different types of products. The person with large ticket items can't afford to spend the money on a 7 day auction, they need to be able to park the item until the right buyer comes along. This may take some time, but it is better than selling it for less than it is worth.Sometimes patience is a vurtue. This is what happens in brick and mortars, they do not expect items to sell in a week.Some high priced designer items like jewelry, art glass, etc never go on sale. The just wait for the right buyer to come along.
Seasonal items do get prices slashed, but they have to make room for new products. Many Ebayers do not need to do that.
What I am trying to say is: there is not right or wrong way to approach all sales. You know what works best for you and your products. Hopefully Ebay will take all of this into consideration if and when they make some kind of determination on "Unproductive Listings."
posted on February 20, 2007 03:41:48 PM
Very nice auctions, aspire and igavel, they are more like in person auctions. They are only open for a certain period of time and happen several times a year. Great venue if your item fits this model.
Posted by Laura on February 21, 2007 at 11:01 AM in General | Permalink
Laura_post_9 I'm here to clear the air on an incident that happened a couple weeks ago. It's a good lesson about how important clear, accurate communication is -- even if, in this case, it wasn't our fault that the message was a bit twisted (think back to that game of "telephone" you played when you were a kid) by the time the Community heard about it.
It started when Auctionbytes published some comments from a Citigroup analyst about eBay's strategy. The remarks made by the analyst came out of a routine meeting that our investor relations team holds. This line, in particular, caught our sellers' attentions, and inspired a lot of discussion last week: "Mahaney said according to the executives, the steps eBay will take to enhance RPL include removing unproductive listings; driving higher conversion rates; and generating higher average selling prices."
In an ensuing conversation on our Stores forum - Ebay to start removing unproductive listings - and elsewhere, sellers spent several days speculating what this really means. Basically, if eBay is going to take new steps to "remove unproductive listings" what will that mean to sellers?
Not knowing what might happen in the future is understandably frustrating, and feeling like eBay is holding out on giving them important information that could impact their business decisions is even more galling. Some sellers spun their wheels trying to speculate what was in store-- would eBay actually pull down listings? change the policy that allows up to 15 of the same item? raise prices for some items?
One member voiced the frustrations that many shared: "...the fact still remains eBay is NOT communicating real and factual and thoughtful and clear and fair info with US Sellers with regard to the changes they make.... which is thus why we Sellers are left with ASSUMPTIONS and 'craziness' and other things on this eBay site....It is not fair to us Sellers to intentionally do things behind our backs the things we need to know and understand so we can make our own adjustments as a Seller."
I was a bit surprised by the comment, too, and why we wouldn't have said something to our Community if this were true. I wanted to get to the bottom of this story, so I sent a note to the person who manages our Investor Relations -- her name is Lydia, and she's one of the nicest, smartest people I work with. I included a copy of the article and summarized the concern it was causing among sellers. Lydia was quick to respond.
In a nutshell, Lydia assured me that the analyst's comments implied something that was never said. eBay is not taking any new actions to remove listings, and this is not what we told analysts.
Instead, they were told about the history we're all pretty familiar with now -- about the unintended consequences of surfacing all Store items in search results back in Feb 2006, which led to an over-abundance of Store items that ultimately hurt the buying experience. This led to the subsequent re-balancing efforts from August that have led to a decrease in the percentage of Store Inventory listings on the site which, in turn, had a positive impact on conversion rates. These are the intended consequences, if you will. (PHEW!)
Everyone here is sorry that the analyst's word choice led to concerns in the Community. It was a bit of a boo-boo.
So there you have it -- if you have comments for me about this issue, or if you'd like the Chatter blog team to write about another issue, let us know. Write us at [email protected], or leave your comments on our discussion board linked at the bottom of this post.
Comment on this post in the Discussion Board
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posted on February 21, 2007 09:03:58 PM
I'm not so sure eBay was just blowing smoke again. They have not been overly open and above-board with their sellers or investors. Off-hand comments may reflect their true intentions. Who knows? I'd be interested in the reporter's comments about the misquote. I was really mystified that eBay is best designed for the collector's market and not for the discounted new products. I thought eBay was working to phase the collector's market out through their fee schema.
posted on February 22, 2007 07:05:39 AM
If Ebay phases out the collectibles market, which I highly doubt since it is the"go to" place for hard to find items (you can find IT on Ebay), then they will just be another "Overstock.com"
[ edited by merrie on Feb 22, 2007 07:27 AM ]
[ edited by pixiamom on Feb 19, 2007 09:59 PM ]