posted on March 23, 2001 03:34:48 PM new
#1 I never agreed that their hit count was deceptive.
I just called them and those numbers are based on a "hit counter" so to speak.
#2 I myself questioned George on those 4 million members.
Are all 4 million currently active...I wouldn't say that.
But from what I gathered in my meetings...and he did have contracts among other things to back him up...is that those numbers are real.
I am not saying that no one has ever gone in there just like they have done on eBay and set up bogus accounts, or multiple accounts to create mischief.
Might I suggest you put your efforts into more positive action.
Call this company...speak with the CEO or the techs and ask them the questions you are needing answers to and offer them suggestions on how they could improve the site in the eyes of the community.
posted on March 23, 2001 03:35:20 PM new
LOL - really. I am really LOL.
You're kidding right? Might I suggest that BidBay changes their wording so it does not confuse anyone?
[ edited by gottaknow88 on Mar 23, 2001 03:36 PM ]
posted on March 23, 2001 03:39:14 PM new
no actually I am not kidding.
BidBay is upfront when they say "items."
However your math formula is flawed.
You innocently substitute "items" for auctions at one point in an attempt to make BidBay look like they are lying.
You go from 900,000 "items" on your site to 900,000 auctions and that is a mistake, or an attempt at deception as BidBay never claimed to have 900,000 auctions running as you report on your site.
Edited to add this:
This is what you state in your final summation on your site:
"Total Listings: 113,100
Margin of error estimated at 10%
Yields: Between 100,000 - 120,000 listings
when claiming over 900,000
(shame shame)"
You are stating BidBay claimed to have over 900,000 listings.
AG2
[ edited by auctiongallery2 on Mar 23, 2001 03:40 PM ]
[ edited by auctiongallery2 on Mar 23, 2001 03:47 PM ]
posted on March 23, 2001 03:46:21 PM new
Page one of my site states exactly what I've done. Nothing deceptive. It says I am converting the dutch auction count into one, not 5000 or 100. It states exactly how BidBay formulates their count and how I've formulated mine. This is getting silly.
Added:
Reputable companies should not need to be told by their customers how to behave and present facts properly. Customers can however suggest ways to improve the site...add new features, make XYZ easier to perform.
[ edited by gottaknow88 on Mar 23, 2001 04:00 PM ]
posted on March 23, 2001 03:49:20 PM new
I'm sorry you feel that way.
But is this not what you state?:
Total Listings: 113,100
Margin of error estimated at 10%
Yields: Between 100,000 - 120,000 listings
when claiming over 900,000
(shame shame)
Show me where BidBay claims to have 900,000 auctions running.
posted on March 23, 2001 03:49:21 PM new
Try this little experiment.
Using Netscape, go to any BidBay auction listing, the ACTUAL LISTING. After its loaded, click View | Page Info.
There you'll find the number of files BidBay has sent to your browser for a single pageview.
In my case, it was 23 images.
That means that while Bidbay reports "over 1,000,000 hits per day" on its homepage, the auction site is actually getting about 43,500 pageviews per day.
So let's see.
About 43,500 pageviews and 100,000 listings, or a ratio of 0.44-to-1.
Now let's check ePier.
About 104,500 pageviews and 66,000 listings, or a ratio of 1.58-to-1.
posted on March 23, 2001 03:51:42 PM new
Dimview...did you not read my post above about me calling BidBay?
They do not count server hits.
They actually have a script that runs on the page that pulls information from your browser. It acts like a hit counter. So it only counts people coming into the page...not the html hit, the graphics hit etc.
posted on March 23, 2001 03:58:29 PM new
auctiongallery2 >
They do not count server hits.
They actually have a script that runs on the page that pulls information from your browser. It acts like a hit counter. So it only counts people coming into the page...not the html hit, the graphics hit etc.
Then the level of sales at BidBay is truly abysmal.
If their term "over 1,000,000 hits a day" really means "over 1,000,000 pageviews a day", then the ratio for 100,000 listings is 10-to-1.
posted on March 23, 2001 03:59:41 PM new
AG2, this is nothing personal, but I just want to make sure I understand the language of the new kinder gentler AG2.
BidBay's counting of dutch items in the stats on their home page while all other sites publish the number of listings in their stats is not deceptive, it's "accentuating the positive".
The user registration info BidBay buys from SpeedyClick comprises real users. And even though those users never use BidBay, including those users in their stats is just another way BidBay accentuates the positive.
The money BidBay takes in from individual investors who buy stock from their shady broker is revenue.
The numerous times the BidBay CEO and his staff have posted propaganda on AW under aliases is fair practice because he was banned on AW (for these very practices), and now they won't let him play here anymore.
The CEO's practice of paying hush money and putting bounties on people he doesn't like is good business sense.
OK, I think I've got the hang of it.
disingenuous = clever
unethical = business savvy
deception = positive spin
crimes = honest mistakes
clowns = happy, positive people
posted on March 23, 2001 04:04:40 PM new
AG2:
I think a more important indicator would be dollars sold.
If there listings are that low and there hits are lower than we thought, then I am sorry, but so are their sales. Also, do we count sales from BBB's. What a joke!
There site is deceptive, and you know it, somewhere inside of you, is still the man who has known this stuff all along. They hope to deceive on the items (listings) and the hits (wow, several on each page). This is deception. AND NO ONE wants to call them and ask them about it. They are trying to compare to the other sites, using deceptive measures. THAT IS THE FACTS.
posted on March 23, 2001 04:08:11 PM new
When I was listing there last year my sales were fine. It was nice extra income.
I haven't listed there in months...and haven't really analyzed the site in a few weeks.
But as far as sales go they sure do look better than BidVille.
The answers I get from others is that they are doing pretty good with BidBay's version of buy it now.
I think some of the hits are from people checking into the site. You will have to agree that there is a lot of discussion about BidBay here and elsewhere and people are checking it out.
How does that translate into a buyer base? Hopefully with some of the improvements already made...and with the improvements being worked on as we speak people will find something they like.
In the beginning I was a loyal die hard BidBayer. They lost me there for awhile...but they are winning me and my trust back by these improvements. I just decided that instead of constantly beating up this site or any site for that matter I would only work in a positive manner in hopes of obtaining positive goals.
This seems to me to be a win win situation. I will have gained nothing if this site disappears from the face of the internet. That would only serve to make eBay even stronger...which of course is what they are hoping for.
An elderly man explained it to me this way one time and I will apply it to the online auction community in regards to the smaller sites.
We are like crabs in a bucket. If you have never seen crabs in a bucket you will notice on first glance that there is no lid. Why? Because as soon as one crab starts to crawl and make it's way to the top another crab comes right behind and grabs it's leg pulling it down in attempt to crawl over it's back. This vicious circle repeats itself over and over.
We all want a viable alternative to eBay. It may be one or many small sites.
But if we continue to try to break these sites instead of building them up and working towards improving them...then we are those crabs in eBay's big old bucket.
posted on March 23, 2001 04:14:00 PM new
Dimview is absolutely correct in his thinking and logic. Perfect. Your statistics make the most sense.
OK. This is gonna get fun. I have to go out for the night now. (It's Friday people!) But tomorrow, I'll give a quick lesson on Page Views and where BidBay stands along with some other sites.
posted on March 23, 2001 04:17:24 PM new
wabmester
#1 regarding the counts on the front page.
I state it's not deceptive because they clearly state that it is "items" counted.
I do not agree with this method. It is something I and numerous other people have brought up. What I was stating is that they are just accentuating the positive.
#2 regarding the speedyclick users. BidBay did not buy information from Speedyclick. What they did was pay for the service of having their name in their registration at speedyclick where you click boxes asking for companies to send you information.
Well these users checked the BidBay box...BidBay sent them information...they then visited and joined BidBay.
That is how it was explained to me. And like I said they do have the contracts to back those speedy click numbers up.
#3 What the CEO has done in the past on these boards is the past. I am not defending it. I brought this matter up when I visited BidBay and he was very receptive and things have changed.
#4 As far as hush money and bounties go....another thing I brought up.
As far as myself concerned...as I am sure the hush money remark was aimed at me even though you weren't getting personal I still speak out regarding problems. I just do it in a more positive way.
Read my post above especially the part about the crabs in the barrel.
I have deleted your post because it contains personal information about another poster. I believe you've already been informed that this is a violation of our Community Guidelines.
Please do not post such information again. To do so will place your posting privileges in jeopardy.
posted on March 23, 2001 05:28:50 PM new
LOL, If anyone will give Ebay a run for their money (and quite frankly, I doubt that is ever possible), then it will be the site that is # 2 right now. BidVille. They have integrity, and are honest (NO deception or trying to accentuate the positive). Why help to try to build a site that is full of deceptions, from the very beginning. AG2, you would do good to go back and re-read some of your pre-hush money comments, on this board. They still stand true and you know it.
No, I didn't know it was a violation of the community guidelines, and I've never been informed of such on here or in e-mail or in any other form of communication.
posted on March 23, 2001 08:31:45 PM new
i've been reading all the different posts about bidville ,bidbay and all the other sites.i have to say this, i'm not as concerned as you all are about whos on top an whos second....only that i am able to sell my antiques an collectables.i tried the infamous Bidville only to sell 20.00 in over a month of listings with 1 deadbeat.reguardless if they have 500,000 listings doesnt mean anything cause its a DEAD SITE!........i listed at Bidbay and sold 45.00 within the first 2 weeks of listings had a 350.00 bid on a good item and get 10 times more hits at bidbay then all the hits combined at bidville for the entire month i tried.sucess is selling, not just listing and watching nothing happen.its all this negitive chat about bidbay that drove me to that site.and i am staying.i just wanted to thank all those that hate bidbay because its your negitive postes that drove me there and it works for me.keep up the free advertiseing ......I'M STAYIN.
posted on March 23, 2001 09:41:25 PM new
Im somewhat lost here???
For what I see the listing numbers are way off. I surf through the computer section, I see in monitors they have the number 39. And when I go there, there is maybe 2.. No, Im no
Harvard student, but Its does not take one to figure this one out. I hope BB does great but they need to fix this problem, for it is very misleading.
[ edited by reo2001 on Mar 23, 2001 09:51 PM ]
posted on March 23, 2001 09:54:22 PM new
REO...I just checked that category and I only see two items.
You might have viewed an older version of the page...I honestly don't know what the answer is.
I do know that they are in the process of a complete categories overhaul and things are being moved right and left categories are being added and dropped.
What I keep trying to impress on everyone here is that the changes they have requested are slowly happening.
posted on March 24, 2001 12:12:19 AM new
Bidbay I looked on the front page yesterday it said 9??,??? listings left and came back a little latter it said 8??,??? though boy they are dropping left again came back later they said 1,???,??? I guess all the sellers came back now their count is going up fast LOL. When you list a item at bidbay and put it to relist 5 times and use the counters when it relist the counters stay the same they dont go back to 0 that is why some of them show alot of hits. I laught when they said we are chargeing fee's because for once sellers started asking neg questions bidbay dont like that some even stoped listing and closed auctions they wanted to no what the fee's were bidbay replied we dont no lol. Now they say they remember a promise made that they would not charge fee's till the site was 100% so the new fee's may come in may. Bidbay has said alot of times we are going to start fee's then change their minds. I believe what happened is the fees started sellers to shut down their auctions bidbay seen that and changed their minds again. I do not trust bidbay they dance around things like auction amounts hits and fee's. What do you think. P.S. 0ver 1,000,000 but look at all the catagorys with 0,1,2,3, items in them.
posted on March 24, 2001 06:08:27 AM new
Good Morning AG2,
At your request, I will revise my stats page today to reflect the listings vs items issue.
First...a starter course on "hits". I would bet dollars to apples that BidBay does not have a "script" written to count page views. Real websites would not even consider a "script".
Scripts require the counter to access the site's database in order to "count" the page views. Every time the page is viewed, the database is updated to increase the count by one. Accessing the database is extremely taxing on the computer's most precious resource...the database.
So, how is it done you ask? Well, internet servers have what is called a "log file". Every time you visit a site and click on its links, the computer automatically "logs" this movement via a built in and efficient "log file".
Websites use programs called "log file analyzers" to analyze the data in a log file. It is all done in real time. You can open your analyzer and get up to the minute data including:
Who is on the site
What general physical location are they in
How many people are on my site right now
How many page view have there been
How many "hits" have there been today..yesterday..last month
The list goes on.
This is how websites analyze server data. Not via "scripts". You must have asked some white collar upper management genius at BidBay how they count hits. The only word in his "computer jargon" dictionary was ... uh, um, it's a script. Gimme a break.
LOL.
Later today...a detailed lesson on BidBay PAGE VIEWS (aka "hits" according to BidBay) and how many they really get.
Sorry, I felt that I need to add this. The only true measure of an auction's success is the number of bidders. Period..end of story. It could have 100 million users but if there are no bids, why go there? That's why I only use eBay and don't plan on leaving. BidBay, no bids. BidVille, no bids. LowestBids..do I need to say it?
But, if a site is to ever compete with eBay, they need LOTS of items for sale. Let's say that BidBay somehow gets a great advertising campaign that attracts 500,000 bidders to the site today. They come to the site...search for what they want...don't find it (unless it's a recipe)...and they leave...never to return to BidBay.
But, if the site truly did have 1 Million "unique items" for sale, the bidders might find their holy grail...then they will come back.
So...sellers are required to build the auction in the early days. Buyers ultimately define the site's success.
posted on March 24, 2001 08:53:02 AM new
gottaknow,
like I said before I do not want to get into tit for tat conversations and really don't want to get personal...but I could really care less at your supposed computer knowledge.
Your attempts at impressing me are falling flat, beginning with your failed attempt at using a flawed formula to disparage BidBay.
You question how BidBay counts their hits I called and asked them. You don't like the answer because it didn't get technical enough for you.
I have suggested this time and time again to everyone who has questions. Call them yourself. You will find some very receptive and helpful people there who would explain it better than I did. You are attempting to argue points with me based on tidbits of information I might have learned from BidBay when I am not their spokesman and don't pretend to be. So arguing points with someone who does not know the ins and outs of BidBay's operation is useless in my opinion not to mention a colossal waste of time.
And I would just like to point out another flawed argument.
Check out eBay's home page.
Right under their categories heading on the left side...directly under the "all categories" link...what do you see?
"Over 5 million 'ITEMS' for sale." Does it say "auctions?" "Listings?" No it says "ITEMS."
So to claim that all other sites count auctions is pointless when eBay the leader in online auctions sites who sets the pace for all other online auction sites counts items...not listings.
Is eBay being "deceptive?"
My problem with BidBay's numbers was that they were including hundreds of thousands of recipes in that front page count. They have since corrected that and I commend them for that.
There are still many problems at BidBay. But I have said time and time again since I visited that these people are working hard to correct them.
Has eBay been so receptive to you or their community?
Now I agree that a site's true measure of success is the number of bidders it has and BidBay has their work cut out for them there as do other sites.
AG2
[ edited by auctiongallery2 on Mar 24, 2001 09:17 AM ]
posted on March 24, 2001 09:50:29 AM new
Last time I checked, ebay used the number of listings as their "front page" "number of" count. In other words, a dutch auction for 10 of something counted as "1" in their "we have 5 million items". As long as they are still doing this, they are not being deceptive in advertising 5 million ITEMS, in fact, they maybe are guilty of NOT "accentuating the positive" in using the word items instead of listings or auctions.
But maybe they've changed their method? Its relatively easy to determine, find small category and see if they are counting listings or items in their claim.
In any case, number of items or listings or auctions AVAILABLE for sale is, again, almost a meaningless statistic, other than for advertising purposes.
I've still got my own, private auction going with one million "genuine US nickels" available for "instant purchase" of only $1 each plus $5 S&H...making "captain kirk's auction" #2!! he he
posted on March 24, 2001 10:14:25 AM new
Hey, Gottaknow88:
You are impressing the heck out of me! It seems some are jealous because you actually know what you are talking about!
Yes, you are right about the only way a site can ever compete in the online auction world is to have bids. I know BidVille doesn't have many but their auctions are growing and evenually the bidders have to check it out. That is my opinion!
posted on March 24, 2001 10:23:29 AM new
Now I guess we're going to argue everyone's definition of "items," or their formula on counting "items."
Regardless that is what eBay is counting.
eBay's claim is "Over 5 million items for sale."
The key word being "Over."
How far over would be difficult for you or I to tell as I do not personally want to go in and count each and every item.
I agree with you Capt.Kirk. These numbers are just used by all sites to drive people in to check out the site and have no real meaning for me...as I am a seller and am more interested in how many bidders a site has.
I have stated that is one of BidBay's bigger obstacles right now...that is getting more bidders to their site.
I would also like to ask everyone what is so wrong about "accentuating the positive?" (BTW...that was my way of describing it) What is wrong with promoting a positive aspect of the site in order to draw attention to more bidders...isn't that what people want at an online auction site.
It is not deceptive. BidBay has over 1 million items for sale.
That does not mean that every category is filled to the brim, but there are items for sale on the site and the site continues to grow in spite of all of it's opposition.
