posted on March 8, 2001 08:13:06 AM
I understand the gist of what mzalez is saying, or rather trying to convey. I have to agree to some extent. Its OK to act out ones anger nowadays, because its the "norm". Its what is shown daily, on television, in the news, in cartoons, in theaters, in day to day life. Guns are easily accessible...so if one is pissed off, just shoot the one pissing you off. Dont have a gun? Use your car. Dont have a car? How about a baseball bat? No guidance, no caring, no teaching from the parent, society, day to day living. A child with a strong faith, who lives in a godly way and trusts God is not going to kill other kids when he feels weak or angry. Unfortunately, most children in their teen years are NOT trustworthy of a God to stop those who pick and prod. Where was God when they got beat up? Or cried because they were called another name and embarassed in front of the other students? Where was God when being shoved around, tripped, glasses broken, hair pulled, etc? Being older, that picked on person would know where God was, or think they knew where God was and could perhaps deal with it better. Being a teen, it aint cuttin' it. JMHO.
posted on March 8, 2001 08:18:36 AM
I wonder if the same things were being said when Sodom and Gomorrah(sp?) was about to bite the dust? I must be getting older faster. Funny, isnt it, how age makes one less tolerant of things one was not raised around. Just like rock and roll. "Bad for society, all that smutty stuff". I said "nah. Its groovy". Now, I cant stand to hear Eminem and I say "its bad". And I hear "nah, its cool".
posted on March 8, 2001 09:56:34 AM
KatyD, I don't quite understand what you are saying about excluding the mentally ill? Isn't mental illness a true health problem? Some (not all) people with mental illness do get cured miraculously by God--especially if their mental illness is the manifestation of a spiritual sickness.
On your other comment, yes, the world will end--but we don't know exactly the date or time. If someone is claiming the world will end tomorrow or on any certain date--we know for certain that they are phony. But the point is, be ready because it could happen at any time. So yes, repent for your own sake.
posted on March 8, 2001 10:02:33 AM
Yep--Christianity is cool. You can do all the bad things you want and still go to heaven because you have accepted Jesus into your heart. Great system
posted on March 8, 2001 10:18:50 AM
hepburn, you are right that most teens today aren't trusting God. Many teens don't even have the opportunity to learn godly responses to their troubles. In many cases their parents don't know about God's ways, either. They take their cues from the world to deal with bullying in an evil manner, which in turn just perpetuates more violence. It really is a downward spiral.
The same warnings we hear today were spoken in Sodom and Gommorah before the destruction of the cities. Angels were sent to forwarn the destruction, and then to destroy the cities. The Sodomites wanted to attack
the angels--and they wanted Lot to turn the angels over to them to participate with them in their perversions.
As we get older, we grow wiser (hopefully!) The things we tolerated as groovy when we were kids--at that age we didn't understand why it was so insidious. Same with the kids now, they don't have the wisdom to understand why Eminem is bad for them--only that it appeals to their natural sense of rebellion.
The only thing that has changed since we were teens is that the evil has become greater and more mainstream. It doesn't matter anymore if something is evil as long as people are getting rich off of it.
posted on March 8, 2001 10:23:22 AM
zazzie, that's not true, because once you turn your life over to the Lord you are agreeing to live by His ways.
If you are sincere about following His ways, but you don't change completely overnight--the Lord is patient and merciful and will help you transform your life.
Some people do fall into the trap you mention. It's not God's way. They will suffer the consequences for sure.
posted on March 8, 2001 10:23:49 AM
I don't believe that Zazzie...
I do believe as I said above, "it matters what we do with our faith and how we show it to others in our behaviour and words, not just the fact that we have faith."
sorry mzalez I find your statement: "A child with a strong faith, who lives in a godly way and trusts God is not going to kill other kids when he feels weak or angry." to be a generalization which could not possibly true in all cases.
KatyD correctly pointed out just one instance where the generalization could prove to be incorrect, which is a situation where a mentally ill or impaired person commits an act of violence despite having professed the Christian faith previously. Additionally, so far as I know, God is the only perfect being, therefore it is possible, and also probable, that even Christians commit sin, crime, and violent acts even after coming to know the Lord.
I might just go back to lurk, I don't know... sometimes I wonder why I try...
posted on March 8, 2001 10:28:24 AM
mzalz--oh goody! The story of Lot. Gotta love that one. To appease the crowd ouside his house Lot offered his virgin daughters to be used by them as the crowd saw fit.
posted on March 8, 2001 10:30:53 AM
enchanted---every time I have asked that question of a person of faith---the answer I get is the one that I stated. Though they do it much more eloquently
posted on March 8, 2001 10:40:26 AM
Hi mzalez -- I like your posts because you present your perspective in a pretty reasonable way, but I have to disagree.
What these kids are going through now, shooting each other up and all, is a consequence of our godless ways.
Right and wrong exist separately from a belief in any god. Religion tends to oversimplify the two extremes ("God is good; Satan is bad" ).
I'm a "godless" person because I do not believe in God, yet I'm a good person because I'm kind, respectful, and a productive member of society. A belief in God and being a good person are not positively correlated. Neither are Atheism and evil. Despite my lack of religion, you won't find me shooting people, stealing, or taking more than ten items through the express lane at the grocery store.
A good person will be good even in the absence of a belief in God; religion is unnecessary. Conversely, sociopaths and others with little or no conscience will always exist, regardless of the presence of religion in their lives.
Edited to remove that dang winking smiley.
[ edited by RainyBear on Mar 8, 2001 10:41 AM ]
posted on March 8, 2001 10:42:38 AMenchanted....therefore it is possible, and also probable, that even Christians commit sin, crime, and violent acts even after coming to know the Lord....Absolutely true....Ask any politician....
BTW: I am not Christian, but I do have many Christian friends: according to Christianity, as long as you "repent" on your death bed (all one need to do is say "I do", one is absolved? I have a little problem with that, if in fact it is true. JMHO, no more, no less.
BTW (again ) I am SO totally against the terrible things going on in Israel, all the crimes committed against Palestinians, all for the sake of the Ultra Orthodox movement!.....
********
Gosh Shosh!
posted on March 8, 2001 11:02:45 AM
Someone close to me once said that whomever follows any particular religion is because its the one that "tickles ones ears". In other words, whatever you believe yourself, and that particular regligion has the same beliefs, then all others are wrong because it didnt "tickle your ear". Makes sense to me.
I never could understand why idols are worshipped. Mary is worshipped. Budha is worshipped. In short, THINGS are worshipped in lieu of the being behind it. Confess, and you are forgiven, no matter the deed. "Tell" beads and all is well. Dip your head in water and receive blessings. "Find" God, and you are absolved. Even in religion, there is a copout in not having to take responsibility for actions.
According to Kohlberg's stages of moral development, no. The person who is good because it's the "right thing to do" based on one's own conscience is in a higher stage of moral development than the person who is good because of faith. Stage 6, the highest stage of moral development, is based on individual principles of conscience, not on fear of punishment (in this case, by God), deference to an authority figure (God), or beliefs based on a set of rules (religion).
posted on March 8, 2001 01:25:30 PM
enchanted, yes, now that I look at it--that statement was meant as a generalization. It would be better written "A child with a strong faith, who lives in a godly way and trusts God is less likely to kill other kids when he feels weak or angry." Is that what you were trying to point out, katyD, about the mental illness?
"God is the only perfect being, therefore it is possible, and also probable, that even Christians commit sin, crime, and violent acts even after coming to know the Lord." Yes, you're right about that. But isn't someone who 'walking with the Holy Spirit' going to avoid depravity (which includes gunning other people down because they 'dissed' you)?
Don't go back and lurk, stay here and contribute to this lively discussion! (smile)
zazzie, I don't understand which question you've asked to a person of faith (that was answered more eloquently)--you lost me there, please explain. The part about Lot's daughters I've wondered about, too. I'm going to ask the pastor about that to see what that means--I don't understand that part and now would be a good time to look into it. hepburn, can you explain?
rainybear, thanks for your kind comment. I've never met an atheist before--do you consider yourself an atheist? (Just a side comment, I've heard that 'atheism' itself is a form of religion--what do you think?)
It's true as you say a belief in God and being a good person aren't correlated directly--evidence being there are plenty of good people in the world who don't believe in God. Rhetorical questions: But why is "kind, respectful, and a productive member of society" considered as 'good'? Why isn't "selfish, disrespectful, and being a burden to society" considered good? Says who?
I agree with you that religion is unnecessary. Mentioned earlier that religion is man-made, cultural thing. We don't need no stinkin' religion--what we need is Truth.
Yeah, there will always be sociopaths among us--those who are the epitome of selfishness--even religious ones! Think of priests who molest children for their own gratification...I can't think of a more horrible, evil example.
Shoshanah (such a pretty name), your friends are right--you can repent on your deathbed. This doesn't mean you can go through life though, thinking 'Oh I can do whatever I want through life, and then repent at the last moment." There is judgement for that because it shows an insincerity or 'working the system'. If you knew earlier in your life that you should repent and didn't, God will remember that. Also, you may not even get a chance to repent on your deathbed--such as instant, split second death in a car accident.
My Jewish friend told me about the Ultra Orthodox--they sound very militant. Are they the ones we see in the news lobbing bombs and rocks?
hepburn, do you think that God won't hold us accountable for our actions? He is merciful and forgives our sins, and then expects us to "go and sin no more". And yet we do.
If someone is sincerely striving to live a good life and they slip up, won't we be more understanding towards that person? How about someone who does something bad because they feel like it, while thinking "I'll just go confess this and God will forgive me" (the 'do first, apologize later' mode of operation)--would we be so understanding?
zazzie (again), "Someone is good because it is the RIGHT THING to do. Another is good because of their faith. Are these people equal???" I don't think they're equal, but there are similarities based on direct and indirect relation to God.
Well I better get to the post office to mail these eBay packages, or the customers will start to email me! This Round Table is a fun place...I wish I came around here earlier. TTYL guys!
posted on March 8, 2001 01:30:40 PM
figmente, which religion is being pushed here? We are talking about a wide range of philosophical topics, but is anyone pushing a religion?
posted on March 8, 2001 01:57:02 PM"A child with a strong faith, who lives in a godly way and trusts God is less likely to kill other kids when he feels weak or angry." Is that what you were trying to point out, katyD, about the mental illness?
No.
Think of priests who molest children for their own gratification...I can't think of a more horrible, evil example.
Actually, if you look at the pedophile population en toto, you'll find that "priests" represent a very small minority of these offenders. I find that statement a disturbing stereotype.
My Jewish friend told me about the Ultra Orthodox--they sound very militant. Are they the ones we see in the news lobbing bombs and rocks?
Some of those are Palestinians. Yet another example of a socio-economic/political problem in which each side believes that "God" makes their cause the "righteous" one.
posted on March 8, 2001 02:08:49 PMrainybear, thanks for your kind comment. I've never met an atheist before--do you consider yourself an atheist? (Just a side comment, I've heard that 'atheism' itself is a form of religion--what do you think?)
I don't really like the term "atheist," at least not as applied to myself. The word does imply a belief system and, like you said, is almost like a religion it itself -- and to me it seems strange to base a belief system on disbelieving a different one. I don't think one who doesn't believe in God needs to take on the label "atheist." I also don't eat most types of meat (excepting seafood), but I don't like the term "vegetarian" because it implies a lifestyle and, again, a belief system. But I simply don't like meat, and it seems silly to label myself "vegetarian" because of something I just happen not to do. Ditto with atheism.
It's true as you say a belief in God and being a good person aren't correlated directly--evidence being there are plenty of good people in the world who don't believe in God. Rhetorical questions: But why is "kind, respectful, and a productive member of society" considered as 'good'? Why isn't "selfish, disrespectful, and being a burden to society" considered good? Says who?
Those "good" qualities I mentioned are all ones which either benefit other people or which at least don't affect them in a negative way. My personal definition of "good" is existing in such a way that one does not hurt others, and ideally makes the world a better place, at least in some small way.
posted on March 8, 2001 05:06:38 PM
KatyD, so what did you mean about the mental illness?
On the priest comment, it was made only to show an example--examples don't have to be taken from the majority of a certain group, eh? But now you've got me curious--what is the largest group among child molesters?
So which religion are we pushing here?
RainyBear, if there is no God, how did we get here? Our world shows evidence of design by an intelligent 'being' or 'something' or 'force'. (sorry, I'm probably going to ask you lots of questions--like I said, I never 'met' someone with your beliefs before)
If someone's own definition of good is 'to my own benefit only', would that truly be something good?
A side note--I was just over at another place that has lots of AWers--wow, it seemed like a mass exodus of people left and went over there. Small world, yep.
posted on March 8, 2001 07:11:27 PM
RainyBear, the link about moral development is interesting--thanks (forgot to mention it in my llooongg previous post). The highest level, 6, seems to be God himself. What do you think?
zazzie, God just always was--He didn't come from anywhere. It's one of those things the human mind is too limited to comprehend. (speaking of the limits of the human mind...my human mind doesn't understand your reference to 'chicken & the egg'? Can you explain more?) PS: Saw you over at the Bay...
posted on March 8, 2001 07:12:01 PM
Zazzie, the answer to that question is contained in the first verse of the Bible.
The Bible says that God created all matter. Time and space are properties of matter, so it wasn't until matter's creation that these two things came into existence. This imples that neither time nor space contains the being that created and preceeded matter.
So the answer to the "who created God" question is that God wasn't created. An eternal being has no beginning, by definition.
"The chicken or the egg" is a refernce to the question; which came first, the chicken or the egg?
As far as why I quoted the Bible, that's necessary for a standard definition of God. Without a standard, there not only can't be an answer to your question, there can't be a discussion. The whole idea of "God" comes from the Bible, so any knowledge we might have about God's nature comes from there.
[ edited by jamesoblivion on Mar 8, 2001 07:16 PM ]
posted on March 8, 2001 10:19:51 PM
When a 'person of faith' uses a Bible quote to prove a point to a 'non-believer'---you have a major conflict there. One person is using words that they believe are divine and were written by God and are without fault--the other believes the words were written by man.
A similar situation would be a Hindu quoting from their Holy scrolls telling you how the world came into creation. You do not believe that the reference he is using is divine but he does.
posted on March 8, 2001 10:29:21 PM
jamesoblivion, you put that very well--you've got a way with words. It's so clear. If you don't mind, I'd like to use your explanation to explain to people when they ask.
zazzie, I do understand the 'chicken or egg?' question, but how does that relate to any belief system? That's where I don't get what you said.
Do you mean like "Did God come first or did the world come first?"
posted on March 8, 2001 10:31:44 PM
I understand, but the whole concept of God arises from the Bible. I am well aware that quoting the Bible is no proof at all.
If you like, I'll say what I said without any Biblical references.
God, by definition, is an eternal being who created all matter. Time and space are properties of matter; the creator of matter is not bound by or contained within his creation. Eternity means just that; no beginning.
But you have to reference the Bible to get that definition.
There is such a thing as a hapax, a word that occurs only once in all literature. Such words have no precise meaning that we know of. "God" is similar to that, as all knowledge humans can claim to have about God (the "definition" of God) comes from the Bible, so there is no way to answer that question without referencing it.
posted on March 8, 2001 10:42:23 PM
I forgot to mention, too, that the Santana High School received a terrorist threat via either email or IM (2 networks reported differently). The message said to the effect that "Andy's (the shooter) work is not finished, and we will finish it for him." All the kids were sent home from school again today.
Oh yeah, I was over at the moderator's corner, and the originator of this thread requested that it be locked! I hope the mods don't lock it...this has been a very good thread. I'm glad butterfly5 started it--thanks!
posted on March 8, 2001 10:54:11 PM
mzalez--no I'm not asking that....not really sure what I'm asking...except 'Where did God come from??'
The scriptures tell you that God has always been here and that is really the only answer that you can give me. But the only person it gives proof to is yourself. Without the faith, the words are just words.
Another puzzle in my mind is that for some reason a few millineum ago God decided to decorate the void. So he filled the heavens with 'billions and billions' of stars..but the only place he really cared about when the dust settled was this little group of people on a small blue ball called earth---and just to rile things up a bit he only sent prophets to a small corner of this small blue ball.
Everybody else's version of creation etc was just a bunch of hog-wash and would buy them a one ticket to Hades--as he hadn't sent them anyone to set the record straight they would just have put up with the misinformation until trans-oceanic travel.
posted on March 8, 2001 10:57:55 PM
'Men have had the vanity to pretend that the whole creation was made for them, while in reality the whole creation does not suspect their existence.'
-- Camille Flammarion (1842-1925) French astronomer
posted on March 9, 2001 06:52:31 AM
zazzie, yep, you are right. Without faith, the words are just words (even though they may be good words). The key to it all is faith. So many lack faith today, and the result is hopelessness. We can see the results of this all around.
The reason God decorated the void was for His own glory. He made us his children, so we would glorify him. The world also glorifies him--because we can look at the wonders of nature in awe of a great creator.
Yeah, it does seem bizarre that He chose us to do this for him. He gave us free will, so when we do choose to worship and glorify him, it is given freely and not forced. When you think about it, that really makes sense--what good is forced 'worship'?
No one knows why he chose the people he did to be his prophets, but I guess he had to start somewhere. If he had sent prophets to all corners of the earth at first, we might have gotten his message all tangled up. Anyway, it was a brilliant strategy--if you are going to go global, start out in one place, establish yourself firmly, and then spread out. And then to top it off, Christians believe God sent his own son so we could better understand him.
It's taken thousands of years to get God's message out, as you say with trans-oceanic travel. But to God, who is eternal, a couple thousand years is probably like a couple weeks to him.
People who never heard this message in the world--they do suspect there is a great creator of some sort. People are spiritual.
God is merciful to those who have never heard his word. But if you have had the opportunity to hear his word, and you turn it down--that is when you start to get in trouble. And even then he is still merciful. For me, I wondered about God for a long time, even though I was brought up going to church every Sunday. It took about 30 years for rebellious me to finally understand what God means to us.
I will have to say when I finally did have faith, my life radically changed completely for the better. So many things that used to puzzle me, now are seen so clearly. I'm not claiming my life is now perfect (Satan still roams the earth), but I now have true joy and eternity to look forward to. Even my 4 year old knows what I didn't know when I was her age.
Hope does a lot of good for a person. Without hope, people (especially children) just give up. I think many kids these days have already given up.
The quote by the French astronomer that you posted sums it up. If people assume the world was made to glorify themselves, they will live a bleak, meanlingless existence. I only disagree with the last part, that "in reality the whole creation does not suspect their existence". Of course the creator knows of our existence--intimately. (the Bible says he knew us even before we were born, and he even knows the number of hairs on our heads at any given time--now that is awesome design planning on his part!) He is waiting for us to acknowledge him for who he truly is.
, one is absolved? I have a little problem with that, if in fact it is true. JMHO, no more, no less.