posted on March 9, 2001 07:11:35 AM
Hope seems to indicate a current state of disatisfaction and unhappiness. I am not unhappy. I have a very positive outlook on life. I also don't feel I am living a bleak and meaningless existence.
posted on March 9, 2001 07:15:01 AM
Man questioned mysteries encountered long before a bible existed, and he found answers equally satisfying. There is an island culture that had never heard of God or of airplanes until one flew over during WW2. Now the airplane is their God and they've constructed an entire belief system around it. So it goes. Man demands answers for the unexplained.
The belief, or faith, is all that God is, and the faith in airplanes is equal to the faith in a Christian god, or any other deity, because there is no god. There is only a lack of knowledge.
Hanging on to unproven theory as though it is fact stands in the way of the furtherance of knowledge of fact.
posted on March 9, 2001 08:25:35 AMBelief in any god institutionalizes ignorance.
for whom? and why ignorance? Is this the reason you're an ordained minister krs, to help institutionalize ignorance? For you that goal seems far below your usual lofty goals.
Zazzie, I'm sorry I didn't get back here to answer one of your questions yesterday. I believe you were asking whether people who do something that's good because it's right, are equal to those who do good because god said so. Excuse me for paraphrasing.
Ok, my answer is: As a human being I have no answer. Far be it from me to think I have the right to judge another human beings actions, thoughts, words,heart, or soul. I do not feel qualified to say who is better, worse or equal. I can only tell you what I believe to be true. I believe God is the only one with the right to judge and I am too humble to pretend I can substitute myself in his place.
Also, mzalez, for me having hope does not imply a current state of bleakness, or anything negative. To the contrary it implies positive and forward looking feelings and thought processes. Irene I'm glad you're a hopeful person, although the running away with krs part, gee I don't know
Officially going back to lurking, just didn't want to leave Zazzie thinking I didn't want to answer. You have some great questions Zazzie.
posted on March 9, 2001 10:00:23 AM
krs is an ordained minister? For true??
enchanted, I agree when you say hope "implies positive and forward looking feelings and thought processes". And when someone is in a "current state of disatisfaction and unhappiness" (thank you stockticker)--hope is the thing that can keep you going when you feel like giving up.
A kid that murders his classmates at school has no hope. If he did he would be looking hopefully toward the future when his life circumstances would improve. He wouldn't want to do anything to ruin his future. Unfortunately, lack of hope allows these kids to ruin their lives and the lives of others.
zazzie does ask great questions, I second that!
Also, enchanted, another great point you bring up. You said "God is the only one with the right to judge". This brings up some questions: Does God transfer his divine authority to judge to any of us on earth? If God says "It is wrong to murder", then does any human being on earth (like a court judge) have the authority or right to sentence a murderer?
The news says the friends of the Santana H.S. shooter are now banned from returning to the school. The school says it's for their own safety, and that the kids left voluntarily. The kids say they were forced to find other schools. It seems like those 3 or 4 kids are being blamed for the murders, since they heard the shooter 'joking' about going on a shooting spree and didn't believe him--that they didn't judge his comments and take him seriously. What do you all think?
posted on March 9, 2001 10:38:21 AM
Good morning mzalez! To address a couple of your questions:
RainyBear, if there is no God, how did we get here? Our world shows evidence of design by an intelligent 'being' or 'something' or 'force'. (sorry, I'm probably going to ask you lots of questions--like I said, I never 'met' someone with your beliefs before)
Yes, the "watch and watchmaker" analogy. I agree that our world and its workings are incredible, but I don't believe that means there was a "grand design" behind it. I believe that our natural world is full of scientific wonders, that evolution is the key to our existence as we know it, and that the power of nature stands alone without the need for support by a creator. My belief is that God is a construct of people's desire to explain the wonders around them, a personification of the everyday "miracles" of life. The Bible says that man was made in God's image, but I believe that God was made in man's image, to fulfill a need of humans to explain their world and their existence in a form which is easy to relate to.
If someone's own definition of good is 'to my own benefit only', would that truly be something good?
I look at "good" and "bad" as polar locations on a spectrum. An act which is to one's own benefit only, without harming others, would still fall into the "good" range but wouldn't rank as high as an act which would benefit oneself and also others. An act with would benefit oneself to the detriment of others would be "bad." (RainyBear Scale of Good and Evil copyright 2001, LOL...)
RainyBear, the link about moral development is interesting--thanks (forgot to mention it in my llooongg previous post). The highest level, 6, seems to be God himself. What do you think?
Sure, the Christian God would certainly be at the highest level of moral development.
And you asked krs:
So what is the proof that there is no God?
Proving the lack of something's existence is unnecessary. It's not necessary to prove that the core of Mars isn't made from Jell-o pudding, either.
posted on March 9, 2001 10:52:00 AM
I feel very sorry for these kids and parent who had this conversation with the shooter. They asked him if he was kidding ---and he said 'of course he was kidding'--they made a judgement call and tragically it was the wrong one.
They'll have to live with this forever and they will feel guilt over this forever and they will be judged on it forever--with some thinking they are as guilty as the boy in jail.
CNN had an audience of teenage school kids on the day of the shooting and they were asked if they had a friend who claimed they were going to take a gun to school and use it --would they tell??
All of them said that if after questioning their friend they felt that the person was only kidding they wouldn't have told anyone about it. This scenario is probably played out 100's of times a year--with most of the people really only kidding.
Some system has to be in place that these conversations can be reported and a trained professional can be the one to decide who is kidding and who is not---but kids need to know that they are not going to destroy reputations of those who are 'just kidding'
My husband has an expression that he uses that I try to discourge "They should be taken out and shot"--should that be reported??
posted on March 9, 2001 10:56:52 AM
People might be forgetting -- teenagers might resemble adults, but they are not. True, there are varying levels of responsibility to be found among teens but to think that those teens who were told should have known enough to report it -- that betrays a lack of understanding of what a teenager is -- not an adult.
posted on March 9, 2001 03:39:04 PM
Good evening, RainyBear!
Level 6 of the Moral Development Scale, do you think a human could reach that level? It seems that if yes, they would be a sociopath capable of some very immoral acts.
Where does the power of nature come from (we could also call it cosmic power)?
Acts that do no harm or benefit others...who decided that these are 'good'?
BTW, if the core of Mars is CHOCOLATE Jell-O pudding, count me in on the next mission to Mars!!
posted on March 9, 2001 04:17:32 PMGood evening, RainyBear!
Hiya!
Level 6 of the Moral Development Scale, do you think a human could reach that level? It seems that if yes, they would be a sociopath capable of some very immoral acts.
Sure, I think humans reach that level all the time.
Quoting from the page mentioned earlier in this thread -- "Stage 6: The universal ethical-principle orientation. Right is defined by the decision of conscience in accord with self-chosen ethical principles that appeal to logical comprehensiveness, universality, and consistency. These principles are abstract and ethical (the Golden Rule, the categorical imperative); they are not concrete moral rules like the Ten Commandments. At heart, these are universal principles of justice, of the reciprocity and equality of the human rights, and of respect for the dignity of human beings as individual persons."
That doesn't make them sociopaths at all, but rather they're people who act morally based on individual principles of conscience. The way I understand it, a sociopath would be stuck at the Preconventional level, in stage 0, 1, or maybe 2. That individual's sense of morality doesn't extend very far (if at all) beyond himself.
Where does the power of nature come from (we could also call it cosmic power)?
I don't think it really comes from anywhere, any more than God comes from anywhere. Really, I think the two concepts of God and the power of nature are almost identical, the main difference being that God is a personified version of that natural force. The origins of existence... now that's the Big Question, isn't it? I'm not sure anyone can know the definitive answer to that question, but there's no more reason to believe that God created nature than to believe that nature created the concept of God.
Acts that do no harm or benefit others...who decided that these are 'good'?
In this case, me. That's my opinion.
BTW, if the core of Mars is CHOCOLATE Jell-O pudding, count me in on the next mission to Mars!!
I'll bring the spoons!
TGIF
Ditto. I'm looking forward to the weekend and there's a big auction coming up tomorrow!
I've enjoyed this thread more than I've ever enjoyed talking about this sort of topic before. I took a class back in college called Science and Religion, and the teacher and the lectures were so dry that I dropped out after only a couple of weeks. That's a shame because this is really an interesting subject!
posted on March 9, 2001 09:23:13 PM
zazzie, the battle between good and evil is a timeless classic, eh? It certainly isn't a battle of wits, though, or else you all would have knocked me out of the thread long ago.
I agree with you a person can have morals and values without God. But the knowledge of what is truly right and wrong comes from God.
Remember our earlier posts about Lot and his virgin daughters (Genesis 19--To appease the crowd ouside his house Lot offered his virgin daughters to be used sexually by the crowd as they saw fit.)? I did get to talk to a pastor about it tonight...
The Sodomites wanted to rape the angels. Since angels are holier than people, Lot could not turn the angels over to them. If he had turned over the angels, all the inhabitants of the city would have been cursed and destroyed on the spot. The only other thing Lot could do was offer his daughters. He was (1)assuming that the Sodomites would not be interested in the young women, and the offering would 'break the moment';(2)Lot served the Lord first and formost above his own family; and (3)Lot trusted in the Lord so much he knew he could do this (like in Genesis 22, when the Lord told Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac--it was the Lord testing their loyalties. At the last minute, God stopped Abraham before he killed Isaac.)
I'm glad you brought all that up, because like I said before, I've always wondered about that, too. Now it turns out there are some other things in that chapter that bring up questions and need research. For the most part, though, I've found that things in the Bible are always for the good, even though they don't look fair or right on the surface.
BTW, if there are any other passages from the Bible you want me to ask about...please let me know--I'd be happy to get the info for you. Let me make that an open offer to anyone that reads this--either ask here or email me at [email protected] (Was it in this thread someone brought up about sending a menstruating woman away for 7 days?)
RainyBear, there sure lots of parallels and common points popping up in our views. I enjoy this topic so much, too. (I also love political discussions...maybe we are Kamikazes!) It's not to often I get to have a decent discussion with people about these topics without lots of discord. This thread, I'm learning a lot from it.
One day I hope I can take some courses like the one you describe (with out Prof. Monotone, tho). I've also been toying with the idea of a doctorate in that area of study, but got to pay off the school loans first--I better get busy selling. (ooh, as an undergrad I minored in philosophy--some of those teachers were not only boring and dry--but their broken English made it living hell).
May you find rich blessings at the auction tomorrow. I just had a great day at the 'friends of the library' booksale a few days ago--I came home with 4 huge boxes of books. It's always tough to sell them...I want to keep 'em all!
posted on March 14, 2001 09:16:18 AM
Victim's Father Tells the 'Real Motive' Behind Columbine Massacre...
On Thursday, March 8, Darrell Scott, the father of Rachel Scott, a victim of the Columbine High School shootings in Littleton, Colorado, was invited to address the House Judiciary Committee's subcommittee. What he said to our national leaders during this special session of Congress was the "painful truth." Here is a portion of the transcript:
"Since the dawn of creation there has been both good and evil in the hearts of men and women. We all contain the seeds of kindness or the seeds of violence. The death of my wonderful daughter, Rachel Joy Scott, and the deaths of that heroic teacher, and the other eleven children who died must not be in vain. Their blood cries out for answers."
"The first recorded act of violence was when Cain slew his brother Abel in a field. The villain was not the rock he used. Neither was it the NRA, the National Rock Association. The true killer was Cain, and the reason for the murder could only be found in Cain's heart."
"In the days that followed the Columbine tragedy, I was amazed at how quickly fingers began to be pointed at groups such as the NRA. I am not a member of the NRA. I am not a hunter. I do not even own a gun. I am not here to represent or defend the NRA - because I don't believe that they are responsible for my daughter's death. Therefore I do not believe that they need to be defended. If I believed they had anything to do with Rachel's murder I would be their strongest opponent."
"I am here today to declare that Columbine was not just a tragedy-it was a spiritual event that should be forcing us to look at where the real blame lies! Much of the blame lies here in this room. Much of the blame lies behind the pointing fingers of the accusers themselves. "I wrote a poem just four nights ago that expresses my feelings best.
This was written way before I knew I would be speaking here today":
Your laws ignore our deepest needs,
Your words are empty air.
You've stripped away our heritage,
You've outlawed simple prayer.
Now gunshots fill our classrooms,
And precious children die.
You seek for answers everywhere,
And ask the question "Why?"
You regulate restrictive laws
Through legislative creed.
And yet you fail to understand,
That God is what we need!
"Men and women are three-part beings. We all consist of body, soul, and spirit. When we refuse to acknowledge a third part of our make-up, we create a void that allows evil, prejudice, and hatred to rush in and wreak havoc. Spiritual presences were present within our educational systems for most of our nation's history. Many of our major colleges began as theological
seminaries. This is a historical fact. What has happened to us as a nation? We have refused to honor God, and in so doing, we open the doors to hatred and violence. And when something as terrible as Columbine's tragedy occurs - politicians immediately look for a scapegoat such as the NRA. They immediately seek to pass more restrictive laws that contribute to erode away our personal and private liberties. We do not need more restrictive laws.
"Eric and Dylan would not have been stopped by metal detectors. No amount of gun laws can stop someone who spends months planning this type of massacre. The real villain lies within our own hearts. Political posturing and restrictive legislation are not the answers. The young people of our nation hold the key. There is a spiritual awakening-taking place that will not be squelched! We do not need more religion. We do not need more gaudy television evangelists spewing out verbal religious garbage. We do not need more million dollar church buildings built while people with basic needs are being ignored. We do need a change of heart and a humble acknowledgment that this nation was founded on the principle of simple trust in God!"
"As my son Craig lay under that table in the school library and saw his two friends murdered before his very eyes - He did not hesitate to pray in school. I defy any law or politician to deny him that right! I challenge every young person in America, and around the world, to realize that on April 20, 1999, at Columbine High School prayer was brought back to our schools. Do not let the many prayers offered by those students be in vain. Dare to move into the new millennium with a sacred disregard for legislation that violates your God-given right to communicate with Him. To those of you who would point your finger at the NRA - I give to you a sincere challenge. Dare to examine your own heart before casting the first stone! My daughter's death will not be in vain! The young people of this country will not allow that to happen!"
posted on March 14, 2001 09:58:55 AM
You know what? I am sick to death about hearing about God and religion! I have always believed everyone has a right to worship whom and whatever they want. I'm so tired of people trying to convert me and telling me belief in God is what makes people good, moral, loving, etc.
I have lived many years on this earth and have set high and moral standards for myself and my family just because it's the right thing to do.
Since this Religious Right crap has gotten into our government we are being told no matter what good or what we have contributed doesn't matter because we don't believe what they believe. Because of the evil of a few, we are all being condemed. It was never like this before!
Thanks for the rant, now go ahead and nail me.
posted on March 14, 2001 11:17:56 AM
Although what was posted above chococake is considered well and good, it might not pertain to what others believe is THEIR God. Three part spirit, body and soul may not pertain to what others think, according to THEIR religion. Each person who believes in one particular deity thinks its the one TRUE faith. And the others think theirs is and so on so forth. Everyone else is wrong, so think MY way. Each one has that standard and ZEAL. My own beliefs are that everyone worships (or doesnt worship at all) one God. Hes just called different names, and has different "rules", followed by different peoples.
posted on March 14, 2001 11:41:10 AM
Yes Hepburn, that is exactly what I mean! That's why I said I always felt, believe in whatever God or religion you want to. Most people used to seem to get along with that. It so different now. You can't watch the news, or read a paper without being told you must believe in "God" and what we need is prayer in school to right all the wrongs.
I have friends of all colors and beliefs, we respect each other and it keeps life open and interesting. Our government is being a church and that's what scares me.
