posted on March 11, 2001 07:59:13 AM new
I know I don't post here very often, but something happened last week and I'm not sure what, if anything, I'm going to do about it.
Let me start by saying that I'm an atheist. I have never believed in any supreme being, not even when I was a child. My parents did not take a stand one way or another on religion. As a child, I did go to church a few times with one friend or another, and I can remember leaving those services wondering how anyone could actually believe in that stuff. (This was when I was in elementary school.)
I have children of my own now, and we've talked a bit about religion. I've always told them that I don't believe in a god, but that most people do. I've explained to them why I think most people feel the need to believe in some sort of god. I've also told them that when they are old enough to make their own decisions, they are free to go to church if they decide it's what they want.
My children are well adjusted, kind and generous people. Especially my 12 year old son. Lately, he's discovered Dungeons and Dragons and had been organizing his friends so they can play during recess. He was reading a player's manual on the bus and a third grade girl began to read over his shoulder. Apparently, this girl had trouble sleeping that night because of what was written in the player's guide, and her parents had to call their minister over to the house to calm the girl down. Two days later, my son was called into the principal's office and told not to bring the player's guide to school again. I have no problem with that. What does bother me is this: The principal called the girl into the office and made my son apologize for bringing the manual. He then told the girl, with my son sitting right there, that if she was afraid she could shut her eyes and pray. As my son was leaving, he told him that if he ever wanted to go to church to let him know and he would find a way to get him there.
I just don't know what to do about this. I've let so many things like this go without a fight because I know how deeply religous this community is, and I don't want my children ostracized by the other children at this school.
So, what would you do? Would you let this go, or would you try to do something about it?
posted on March 11, 2001 08:14:16 AM new
If you asked your son if he would like to go to church, do you think he would give an honest answer and if the answer was "yes", would that bother you? Would you discourage him from going?
posted on March 11, 2001 08:19:47 AM new
are your religious views not known in your community? it sounded like the principal was saying he would find a way to get your son to church despite your views which were known to him. that could be something you might want to discuss with the principal, but you did say you would leave religious decisions up to the kids when they are old enough to decide. maybe your son is old enough now to decide or at least test the holy water. you are well aware that a community such as you describe could make your family's life uncomfortable if your views were widely known. the decision to stand up for your beliefs is obviously weighing against your concern for your family's well-being. it is a very personal thing. what i or others here might do is not important. we do not live in your shoes.
posted on March 11, 2001 08:24:43 AM new
My son is in Boy Scouts. His troop meetings are held at a local methodist church, and his troop leader is a deeply religious man. I do want him to be exposed to viewpoints other than mine, so he can make an informed decision. If he told me that he wanted to go to church, I would probably let him go. He, like myself, has gone to church functions with friends. He enjoys them, but I think that's mostly because they're always fun things like carnivals and picnics.
I knew, when I agreed to let him join Boy Scouts, that he would be exposed to religion. That was a voluntary decision on my part. School is not voluntary, and his principal is a very powerful authority figure in his life. It just seems to me that his principal is using his authority in a way that shouldn't be allowed.
posted on March 11, 2001 08:28:27 AM new
That's what I think is bothering me the most. I feel very strongly about separating church and school. Schools teach facts. Math facts, vocabulary fact, spelling facts. When an authority figure brings their religous beliefs into the mix, children have no real way of separating belief from fact.
Edited to add: No, I don't generally let other people know that I'm an athiest. People around here do tend to treat you as if you have some sort of disease when they find out.
I don't want my children to pay for my beliefs.
[ edited by monkeysuit on Mar 11, 2001 08:30 AM ]
posted on March 11, 2001 08:36:13 AM new
Im curious as to what upset the little girl. The manual that she read to make her so scared that it resulted in the office with the principal.
posted on March 11, 2001 08:39:50 AM new
I would be pretty angry, as I too believe that the principal is overstepping his boundary of influence. He is there to support your child DURING SCHOOLTIME. He is not there for the weekend. What right has he to try and influence your child about religion, without your express consent? I think I would be calmly asking him for an explanation of what has happened. Why should your son have to apologise for what she read over his shoulder? What is expressly wrong about Dungeons and Dragons - particularly if he is reading it in his free time? It is this rigid kind of stuff that drove me crazy when I was in school.
I am struggling a bit with one of my children too. She goes to a multi-cultural school, and in England, religious assembly is part of the school curriculum. At her school, the assembly is not particularly geared towards Christianity/Church of England, as so many of the children are Muslim, or from other Christian sub-sets. I have raised her to be tolerant of other religions, we have attended meetings of the Religious Society of Friends (Quakers), and am currently letting her explore Paganism/Wicca (on her own initiative).
She is keen, reading books, learning Tarot cards, etc. But kids at her school are telling her she is evil because she is using Tarot cards and reading about Wicca. I told her to tell me if it keeps up, as religious tolerance cuts BOTH ways...
posted on March 11, 2001 08:41:17 AM new
He was reading a page that had spells listed; the name of the spells and what they do. The particular spell she read says this: Wail of the Banshee. Kills one creature/level.
posted on March 11, 2001 08:46:00 AM new
If he did not promote the material to the girl I don't understand what he had to apologize for. He was not violating any rule and there may be other material he could posses and display that will upset her. Why is he constrained by what upsets her? If she wants to be upset that is her problem.
When the Principal turned the talk to prayer that was not the proper thing to do in a public school setting. I really doubt that this girl needs to be reminded that she can close her eyes and pray anytime she wants. With children of this age "you can" from someone like him means - "you should".
When he offered to get your boy to a church the problem with this is that he is probably doing it thinking that you would oppose it. So it is both underhanded for him to use his position to directly undercut what he would expect your desire to be - and again it is not a proper part of his secular job to offer religious instruction or opportunity. again coming from an authority figure the insinuation is that if I am offering it to you I have already decided you need it. It is a small step in driving a very large wedge between you and your son.
What would probably work best in your case is to write a calm short letter to the principal
explaining that while you are not a believer yourself you have never tried to isolate the child from religious people or functions and while you understand part of the faith of people is to offer a witness to their faith it is not appropriate for him to do so as part of his duties as an administrator of a secular institution of learning that is seperated by statute and custom from religious bodies. You might remind him that in the eyes of the law having no faith is as valid as having another faith - And would he have made the same offer to someone who was Jewish or Moslem?
I would explain to the boy that what the principal offered was wrong because he did it thinking he was sneaking something past you and that is not how principals work with parents.
posted on March 11, 2001 08:47:18 AM new
separation of church and state has been a concern to many non-religious and religious people alike. i am not a very religious person(despite what some might think) but i have very strong beliefs in this area and in the area of defamation of any religion. when you stand up for your beliefs you run the risk of persecution much as i experienced here this week, albeit in a somewhat lesser and different way. the Bush presidency, unfortunately, will do little to perpetuate the separation and in fact will probably do much to obliterate it.
posted on March 11, 2001 08:58:35 AM new
The principal is a nice guy. He's usually fair and I've never really had a problem with him before. The kids love him.
That's what makes this so hard. I know he didn't really mean any harm, but I just don't see how he could take it upon himself to tell my son that he would get him to church if he wanted to go. And, getting along in school is hard enough without all your friends suddenly not being allowed to play with you because their mother made a fuss about something like this. I know what these people are like.
Maybe a letter is the way to go. I don't know if I trust myself to go there in person and not lose my temper. That would just make things worse.
posted on March 11, 2001 09:03:03 AM new
Exactly why I suggested a letter and if the principal tries to bend what was said it is immutable in a letter but what was spoken can be distorted. Also you could ask for a written response. The man will be much more careful about what he says and the effort he puts in to thinking about the matter if he is committing it to paper with his superiors and attorneys in mind.
[ edited by gravid on Mar 11, 2001 09:06 AM ]
posted on March 11, 2001 09:07:57 AM new
If you do a letter, (and I think that is perhaps the best way to go), I would ask for clarification on more than just the offer to take him to church.
To diffuse the thing a bit, I would suggest thanking him for his concern, but point out its inappropriateness. If your son IS interested in going to church, you can suggest that you won't mind your son approaching HIM, but vice versa is not ok.
I would also query things from the child's perspective. WHY is Dungeons and Dragons not ok in school? Are there guidelines on what is acceptable in school? How are they enforced? How is playing the game adversely affecting your son's education? (It has lots of math in it, and I would have thought it would be seen as beneficial from that perspective.)
Why was he made to apologise for upsetting her, when he did nothing to upset her? SHE looked at the book... SHE has the problem with banshees... I would be effing furious to have my child made to feel he has done something wrong when he hasn't.
posted on March 11, 2001 09:20:59 AM new
Undoubtedly he feels the game is demonic and should be considered wrong to have and use but the rules of the school did not cover that before it happened. I really don't like the content of these sorts of games myself, but it is not the schools business to regulate popular culture. A LOT of people oppose the light hearted referances to magic in Harry Potter books - seeming to class fantasy as a serious manual for satanic ritual. If you really want to bother them say that you agree it's time to exaimin some religions and take them to the local Kindom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses. They will probably beg you to start up a coven instead.
[ edited by gravid on Mar 11, 2001 09:21 AM ]
posted on March 11, 2001 09:24:10 AM new
In order to survive in this world, your son
should learn how to play as many games as
possible, including Dungeons and Dragons!
posted on March 11, 2001 09:24:21 AM new
I've talked to my son about that, mivona, and he does know that he didn't do anything wrong. It wasn't even against the rules to have a D & D book until after this incident.
He does feel badly that she was upset, but I think he understands that the problem was hers, not his.
He missed lunch because he was in the principal's office. But he did tell me that he was able to eat in the teacher's lounge, and they had lots of extra pizza so he's ok with it. I'm probably a lot more upset about this than he is.
Kids are sometimes much wiser than we adults are. They can put things into perspective because they don't have all the old baggage to deal with.
When I was in fourth grade, my entire class had to stand by our desks and recite the 23rd psalm before we were allowed to eat. This was during the 1960's. I felt at the time that it was completely unfair, especially since I was the new kid and didn't even know what a psalm was. We amost missed our lunch completely several times my first week or two at that school, because I didn't know the words. My classmates didn't appreciate that it was my fault we didn't get recess, and they let me know it.
posted on March 11, 2001 12:57:04 PM new
I know everyone will disagree with me but my advice is to let it go.The principle said "if".He was not pushing your son into doing anything,he gave him an option.The principle is in a delicate postion and you do not know what went on with the other parents.It was not that long ago that the media tried to tie the one school killing up with the fact that those kids spent "long hours "playing D&D.The fact that your child is still being allowed to play the game (just not bringing the book) could possibly be something the principle took a stand on for your child.In this day of lawsuit happy people I am glad your son got off with just having to apologize.Some nutty parents would not have been happy unless they took you to court for the "mental distress" your son caused.
posted on March 11, 2001 01:00:46 PM new
As this matter concerns you, a frank discussion with the principal is definitely in order. You can tell him your concerns and hear what he has to say. There's nothing wrong, at the very least, with letting him know that you don't approve of whatever it is that you don't approve of.
posted on March 11, 2001 01:10:00 PM new
I can only tell you what I'd do. It's hardly a principled stance...
I'd let it go. I'd worry that your POV would merely be viewed as "godless" in such a seriously religious atmosphere and would come back and bite your boy.
It would take about a minute to be quoted out of context and might make him an outcast among the "godly" citizens of your town.
I'm known to be somewhat overprotective, though. Just ask my son...
posted on March 11, 2001 01:30:25 PM new
I'm going to leave out my opinion on separation of church and state, Dungeons and Dragons and so forth and say only: I think boys should always apologize for scaring little girls - whether they mean to or not.
Just my two cents.
Rhonda
[ edited by rhondalee65 on Mar 11, 2001 01:31 PM ]
posted on March 11, 2001 04:42:27 PM newRhondalee: You're kidding, right? Kids-and I'm not even going to get into the gender aspect of your comment-should either be intuitive enough or psychic to know when they might be scaring someone(who is reading over their shoulder) and apologize?
Why shouldn't the kid who read over the other kid's shoulder apologize for what I consider incredibly rude behavior?
Monkeysuit: I'm curious. How did you learn about this incident? From your child? Or did the principal call and relate all this after the fact?
For me, the religious aspect would be secondary to the discipline given. If the principal called my kid on the carpet for such a thing without notifying me first, I'd have a fit. You have the right to know when the school is disciplining your child for any reason. I would also let the principal know I didn't appreciate my child being called on the carpet for something that wasn't against the rules and being treated like he did something wrong when he didn't do anything.
posted on March 11, 2001 07:02:56 PM new
I would emphasize to your son that *he* was in no way in the wrong on this. After what happened to him at school he might need to hear this a few times to believe it.
Frankly, IMO the principal should *never* have even mentioned religion or church to your son. Nor made him apologize to the girl since he didn't *do* anything to her. The man should merely have asked your son not to bring the booklet to campus again if the school has a problem with the game being played on campus. In your place I would--nicely--inform the principal of this & ask that he never do anything similar again.
The whole thing was blown way out of proportion by the girl's parents & the principal. The little girl seems to belong to one of those new Christian sects that have a real bee in their bonnet about "magic." Just seeing a passage in a book over another kid's shoulder would not send a kid into a state where a minister "had to calm her down." Her *parents* seem to be the ones who have terrorized her with religious hysteria about "devils" and the like. Intimating to your son that he needed to go to church or pray over the matter was way over the boundary...
posted on March 11, 2001 10:44:34 PM new
I think you should ask yourself this question
what if the Principal asked a child who does go to church (but one that is not looked at as mainstream) if they needed to go to another church he would help them---or if they were Jewish and the Principal would help them go to a Christian church---or if the school was predominately athesist and the Principal offered their assistance to take the child to an organization that would teach him that things contrary to his Christian upbringing.
The Principal was wrong and I for one would be issuing a complaint to the school board for his action in this.
He has overstepped his bounds and issued this offer because of mass media hysteria and religious opinions on these role playing games. But if he had concerns--he should have voiced them to you not your son.
Tell me----was your school one of those who banned Harry Potter??
posted on March 12, 2001 01:39:04 AM new
Just to clarify...
The principal didn't notify me at all. When my son got off the bus Thursday afternoon, he seemed upset. I asked him what was wrong and he told me the bus driver had asked him if he had been called into the principal's office yet. He had no idea what she was talking about or what he might have done wrong, and worried about it all that night and the next morning. I asked him if he'd done anything wrong at school, and he said no. Friday, he was called into the office.
I'm going to call the school today and ask the principal exactly what happened, just to be sure I'm getting the complete story. I'll decide what to do after that.
I want to thank everyone here for your help. I'm really glad I've had the whole weekend to think about it, and the great responses I've read here. I'll be able to handle this much more calmly now.
I don't want to do anything to hurt my son, so I'm going to have to be very careful here.
I guess it isn't such a free country anymore, is it?
This school hasn't banned Harry Potter yet, as far as I know. My son is currently reading the books and was taking one to school every day to read in study hall.
Robin
[ edited by monkeysuit on Mar 12, 2001 01:42 AM ]
posted on March 12, 2001 02:03:57 AM new
How in the world did the school bus driver get involved with the issue? And why would he/she be made privy to it before *you* were?!? And to top it all off the driver asks your son about whether he's been called on the carpet?
You should definitely have a little talk with the principal! This is simply amazing.
posted on March 12, 2001 03:01:08 AM new
I'm with toke, lotsa, and 2ns on this.
I don't think it will do any harm to make some inquiries, but given the environment in which you find yourself, it may be unadvisable to make a strong stand. I strongly respect your feelings regarding religion and god. I suspect that such tolerance is not the norm in your area. For the sake of your familes continued well-being it may be best to let disretion prevail.
posted on March 12, 2001 05:41:01 AM new
How did the bus driver know about it?
In a little town everybody compares notes and trades information on you. The nurse/receptionist at your doctor your mailman the local cops the sales people at the market and local stores.
It works both ways. I had a ticket from a small town cop who literally sat at the end of my driveway and waited for me to leave for work in the morning. He specifically wanted to ticket me because he thought I was messing with his family. Actually it was somebody else bothering his family but I had just moved next to them and he was sure it had to be me. The next day I bought a box of 50 .45 caliber ACP at the hardware store and the owner ran to tell him. Later I found out from his sister this fellow was so sure I was coming to shoot him he spent the next 6 months fearful everytime he had to go to the car in his driveway or back to the cruiser after eating lunch. He even cut his shrubs way down for fear I would use them to ambush him. Shows what a guilty conscience can do to you. I just thought it was petty and had long dismissed it from mind. Now if he had kept up trying to nail me every couple days I could have gotten a little tired of it.
