december3
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posted on March 12, 2001 06:48:10 AM new
Okay, we'll just agree then that until you are 21 and "experienced" you can do what you want with no fear of punishment beyond juvenile detention. Beat people senseless or to death, rob old ladies and convience stores, walk into a school and mow down everyone in sight. If you've seen it on TV you can always claim you thought everyone would just get up and go about their business when you were done with them.
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reamond
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posted on March 12, 2001 07:01:14 AM new
No- you take the argument to the absurd.
Nothing I have said means that nothing should be done.
I only advocate that the remedies should be geared to a child, not an adult.
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HJW
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posted on March 12, 2001 07:06:07 AM new
dubyasdaman
This sob knew his playing field. Duty and compassion had nothing to
do with this decision.
This poor kid was tried as an adult and convicted of murder by a bunch
of racist bastards.
Helen
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reamond
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posted on March 12, 2001 07:18:15 AM new
Helen- you go girl !!!
You know these same folks wanting to put a noose around this 12 year old's neck, are the same ones that would be singing a far different tune when if it was their 12 year old child, or grandchild. They will be making the same arguments I have been making to the press and anyone who will hear them. But they will also add that he/she was always a nice child and never did anything like this before, and it was an accident, and he/she is only 12 years old. They will mortgage the house to save them.
I would also add this - if the 12 year old spends any significant time in an adult prison in the general population, he might as well stay there for life.
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december3
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posted on March 12, 2001 07:19:59 AM new
Tell that to the Black father of the murdered little Black girl. I'm sure because he agreed with the sentence he must be a racist too.
Sad how some people have to resort to obscenities and race remarks.
[ edited by december3 on Mar 12, 2001 07:21 AM ]
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reamond
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posted on March 12, 2001 07:26:19 AM new
I can understand anyone who is a parent that loses a child under these circumstances to be overwhelmed with revenge and emotion.
However, our justice system is supposed to separate emotions from the system. If it is revenge instead of justice we want, then there is no need for a trial. Just believing that someone has wronged you is enough for you to exact your revenge, but as the old saying goes, if you want revenge, dig two graves.
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HJW
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posted on March 12, 2001 07:28:41 AM new
Reamond
That's true!
I wonder if there are posters among us who
would like to tie a rope around this poor kid and drag him behind a pickup truck?
Maybe we have some lurking and posting clan
members.
Helen
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jamesoblivion
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posted on March 12, 2001 07:28:47 AM new
The R word gets thrown around waaaay too much. Those that abuse the word do a great disservice to everyone.
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jamesoblivion
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posted on March 12, 2001 07:30:23 AM new
I wonder if we have some posters amoung us who's sense of justice and compassion is so perverted that they won't even express a word of sympathy for victims of violence, but only perpetrators?
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reamond
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posted on March 12, 2001 07:30:36 AM new
The disservice is in ignoring or burying the "r" word. If it's out there it can harm no one. If it's hidden and we fear to face it, it harms us all.
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jamesoblivion
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posted on March 12, 2001 07:32:21 AM new
I'll buy that. But abusing the word is a disservice as well.
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december3
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posted on March 12, 2001 07:33:16 AM new
Yes James, it does. All I see is that a child is dead. What color she was really doesn't change that fact.
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reamond
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posted on March 12, 2001 07:37:49 AM new
Justice and compassion for a victim does not equal revenge.
I should hope that once the rage and hurt are tempered by reason and time in the victim's family, one of them will embrace this other child and try to guide and help him become a valued adult. That is true compassion and reason. One child is tragically dead, someone must try to salvage the second child. That is the positive good that can come from this tragedy.
A 12 year old is full of potential, why must 2 children be destroyed other than for racism or useless revenge?
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HJW
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posted on March 12, 2001 07:38:00 AM new
Jamesoblivion
The "R" word?
You have to be living in a vacuum to
avoid the fact that race is a BIG problem
in America and all over the globe.
Helen
[ edited by HJW on Mar 12, 2001 07:44 AM ]
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jamesoblivion
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posted on March 12, 2001 07:42:15 AM new
I wouldn't say race is a problem. Racism is a problem.
However, when a verdict is reached that someone happens to disagree with, that doesn't mean that racism was at hand.
Even the boy's mom, who seems to feel he didn't do anything wrong, hasn't suggested that.
The R word is abused as a conversation stopper. Apparently if someone calls it out and if anyone disagrees then "I wonder if there are posters among us who would like to tie a rope around this poor kid and drag him behind a pickup truck?"
["i]Maybe we have some lurking and posting clan members.[/i]"
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KatyD
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posted on March 12, 2001 07:46:49 AM new
Some of you are losing sight of the fact that the prosecutor agreed with the jury's verdict, but did not agree with the judge's sentence. And the prosecutor was among those upbraided by the judge at the sentencing. I would be curious to know what this judge's record is with regard to his rulings being reversed with higher courts. I don't know that there is an easy way to find out, but it's something I'm curious about. I find it very peculiar that testimony by expert witnesses to buttress the defense's specific defense argument was disallowed. IE, testimony by child psychologists on the effect on children due to violence on television, and more specifically wrestling (WWF) and how it affects children in their life and play. So does anyone know the judge's record on ruling reversals?
KatyD
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reamond
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posted on March 12, 2001 07:51:06 AM new
But racism was involved in verdicts for centuries in the US.
There is nothing to suggest that it has disappeared. It has only been hidden.
The person who would yell in the street "hang the n*gger" still holds the same sentiments, but he/she doesn't voice them. However this same person still sets on juries.
It is pure naivette to believe that race, and wealth, do not play a huge role in our justice system.
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HJW
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posted on March 12, 2001 07:53:57 AM new
Jamesoblivion
You state,
"I wonder if we have some posters amoung us who's sense of justice and compassion is so perverted that they won't even express a word of sympathy for victims of violence, but only perpetrators?"
My sense of justice is not perverted. I consider both of
these children victims and my sympathy is overwhelming.
Helen
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reamond
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posted on March 12, 2001 07:58:46 AM new
KatyD- It is obvious why the judge didn't allow that evidence- down south and in the dubya hinterlands are the largest audiences for wrestling and those free for all tough man cage matches outlawed up north.
When New York and NJ outlawed one such "tough man" match, they were welcomed to move the match to Alabama and Louisianna, and Florida.
I've often wondered about those who claim what we watch has no effect, then why are $ Billions spent on advertising, when it can have no effect ?
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Hepburn
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posted on March 12, 2001 07:59:44 AM new
Oh, I see. Cant get those who see murder as murder to agree with opposing views, so lets call out the klan and claim the whole thing is race motivated for making the loser pay for his crimes. And, lets not forget to throw in a few digs about dragging behind a truck.
Lets also forget about the victim too. Poor little boy was just playing.
[ edited by Hepburn on Mar 12, 2001 08:01 AM ]
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dubyasdaman
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posted on March 12, 2001 08:02:20 AM new
This sob knew his playing field. Duty and compassion had nothing to do with this decision.
This poor kid was tried as an adult and convicted of murder by a bunch of racist bastards.
And you know this based on what evidence? Please share it so that I can shift some of my sorrow for the dead child to her murderer.
You're making assumptions about the character of the jury, the judge, and the prosecutor, all of whom according to you are racists, and who you have never met. These assumptions aren't supported by facts (unless of course you can provide them or tell us where to look for them).
Everyone personally involved with the case was there in the courtroom. They heard and saw the evidence presented. They found the defendent guilty of 1st degree murder BEYOND a reasonable doubt. I simply don't buy the argument that he was convicted because everyone involved in the case is a racist. A racist prosecutor wouldn't have offered such a light plea bargain when given the chance to stick it to someone of the hated race.
Sorry, but your arguments keep falling flat unless you can give us something to back them up besides rhetoric and opinions.
[ edited by dubyasdaman on Mar 12, 2001 08:11 AM ]
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reamond
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posted on March 12, 2001 08:04:10 AM new
Murder is a legal term for which this act could not rise to.
It was racism that brought this 12 year old to trial as an adult with a life sentence.
Again, you ascribe adult responsibilities to a 12 year old.
You must think a 12 year can have consensual sex with an adult.
[ edited by reamond on Mar 12, 2001 08:06 AM ]
[ edited by reamond on Mar 12, 2001 08:19 AM ]
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Hepburn
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posted on March 12, 2001 08:04:27 AM new
I think the "T" word has just reared its ugly head.
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KatyD
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posted on March 12, 2001 08:04:51 AM new
Well, I just don't see how an accusation of "racism" can be thrown out here without discussion of the judge's legal history. The jury did NOT sentence this kid, the judge did. So what we have are two different things. A verdict by a jury, and a sentence by a judge. Is there anything in this judge's courtroom rulings and history to suggest that he sentences blacks more harshly than whites for the same crimes? What about his courtroom rulings? Have they been consistently overturned by higher courts? If so, for what basis? Before leveling a "racism" accusation, it seems that his ruling history should be looked at.
KatyD
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Hepburn
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posted on March 12, 2001 08:06:49 AM new
Thinking as you do, then the two boys who MURDERED that 2 year old toddler was NOT considered that? You remember, the ones that stoned him to death at the train yard and shoved batteries in his body? Remember that? But, they were just kids, right? Wonder if you would feel the same way if it was YOUR toddler. Or YOUR 6 year old little girl.
(Addressing reamond)
[ edited by Hepburn on Mar 12, 2001 08:08 AM ]
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KatyD
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posted on March 12, 2001 08:11:04 AM new
It was racism that brought this 12 year old to trial as an adult with a life sentence.
What do you base this statement on, reamond? Many states are passing voter approved laws that mandate charging juveniles as adults, with the same sentencing guidelines. I don't know that these new laws are "racist" as they don't seem to target one ethnic group so much as kids as a whole. I may not agree with such laws, but nevertheless it is becoming the disturbing trend in state after state. In California, Andy Williams is being charged as an adult, and there has been no discussion that his crime was racist, or that he is being discriminated against by being charged as an adult. I think the only difference in the California law that was recently passed(prop 21) and the Florida law, is that the California law specifically disallows capital punishment for a juvenile charged in a capital crime.
KatyD
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bobbi355
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posted on March 12, 2001 08:11:38 AM new
It's getting to where if a person's color is anything but white, it's a race issue.
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reamond
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posted on March 12, 2001 08:13:11 AM new
The fact that he was tried as an adult is racist. White kids rarely go into the adult system unless there is clear criminal intent involved.
There was no evedence of criminal intent in this case.
Why is it we assume that when suggested it is just and reasonable to at least attempt to salvage the life of one of these kids that we harbor no compassion for the dead child ? We can not bring back the dead child. Under the circumstances, is it not compassionless to destroy another child ?
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reamond
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posted on March 12, 2001 08:15:32 AM new
bobbi335- skin color is the immutable characteristic which bigots use to direct their fear.
Whites receive better treatment within their power structure than non-whites do.
[ edited by reamond on Mar 12, 2001 08:16 AM ]
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december3
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posted on March 12, 2001 08:16:33 AM new
Katy D you'll probably have to do a search on your computer to find out the judges background ect. Certain crimes have mandatory sentences and before anyone goes off half cocked I would like to say thatin this case I don't know if that is true or not it is just that there is always the possibilty the judge did not have that much leeway in his sentencing.
I wonder what the arguments would have been if a white boy had killed the little girl?
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