posted on October 18, 2000 06:47:29 AM
When NW first started I was hit a couple of times, but nothing since.
1. MAJOR problem is Yahoo's limited Categories. For instance there are "cultural areas, but nothing for western or Native American" items, so one just guesses and puts them in what they "feel" is the best location.
2. Ebay had/has a "posse" self appointed judges and all it caused was problems
3. I can see the need of NW, but only if Yahoo would add some categories, AND then check before they delete or send a warning. Also Yahoo should keep a list of the complainers using NW and see if many aren't the same people simply trying to kill out their competition.
4. NW creates a "flee market" mentality where everyone is at everyone else's throats, trying in any manor to eliminate competition.
5. IF honest sellers would turn in the obvious offenders (those who drop tons of items into every conceivable category) and if these sellers or buyers would just focus on major offenders, then that would do a great deal to clean up the bulk lister who abuses the site.
Through a search I was checking for an item the other day and ran into bulk lister who had put a cross necklace in every category one can imagine, including automotive! These are the one who need to be targeted.
It is obvious that you and I do not agree and are not going to agree on this subject. There is no point in arguing about it on the board. I fully support the rules and I fully support abiding by the rules. When the Million Auction March started in July 4 of this year, Yahoo! had 1.9 million auctions listed. As of September 1, the goal date for MAM, Yahoo! Auctions had 2.5 million auctions listed. Today, Yahoo! has 2.5 million auctions listed. I do not know what percentage of that was brought on by MAM, but the numbers speak for themselves. You claim to represent thousands of sellers on Yahoo! auctions. I believe that if thousands of sellers on Yahoo! auctions knew what you were doing, they would not support it at all. I do not claim to speak for anyone but myself. I am voicing my opinion. I have voiced it to Yahoo! as well. It's up to them to decide what to do, as it should be.
posted on October 18, 2000 07:45:04 AM
I finally figured it out. Why is someone so insistent that rules are good but enforcing them isn't? And the same person keeps telling us how many more auctions are appearing on Yahoo but doesnt seem to care how many of them are spam. Because the easiest way to hit a million auctions is with spam and the posse might prevent that.
The posse (of which I am NOT a member) uses NW to call Yahoo's attention to certain auctions. It is Yahoo that decides whether or not to shut it down. To call this vigilante activity, is to call anyone who ever calls the police to report a crime a vigilante.
Why would you want to recommend Yahoo to anyone if scammers are free to glut up the listings with spam and post pornography in areas accessible to children? There have been numerous complaints right here of folks who wont go to yahoo because of the spam, the rip offs, the pornography. Why do you choose to protect this over the rights of legitimate buyers and sellers to conduct honest business? Because Yahoo is too busy to police their own site, they depend on others to report violations. The posse works together as a group to make sure that 1) they all agree that a violation has taken place before issuing the NW 2) if a violation has taken place, the auction gets enough NWs to call Yahoo's attention to it. To say they have a hidden agenda, is ridiculous. Some of them arent even sellers.
As for the comparison to ebay, that is also wrong. Ebay's "secret police" has the power to shut down auctions summarily. The posse doesnt. And since Yahoo knows who is NWing auctions, if they felt that the posse was overzealous, they would issue them a warning, as they must have done to the clown who was NWing me.
You keep talking about your efforts to improve Yahoo but I see no improvement except your insistence that you want to keep the spam. So if you want to take your million auction spam somewhere else, I will be glad to see you go. You're walking away from ebay and now from yahoo. Why dont you just start your own auction site where anything goes? http://www.ygoodman.com [email protected]
posted on October 18, 2000 07:47:39 AM
Paul Truth wrote:"Through a search I was checking for an item the other day and ran into bulk lister who had put a cross necklace in every category one can imagine, including automotive! These are the one who need to be targeted.
Just my opinion "
EXACTLY Paul, from what I have heard from members of the "posse" these are the types of spammers they go after as well as more importantly sellers with very adult auctions and weapons in children-family areas.
They are not nitpicking or trying to off competitors in fact the major leader does not sell on yahoo at all.
These are grown adults banding together to rid the auction site of scum and if they just NW'ed without good reason Yahoo would put a stop to them.
There is nothing anyomous about it. It is not so easy to set up multiple ids on yahoo anylonger. It was at one time, but they have fixed that problem with the cc verification needed for bidders now as well as sellers. Old id's without feedback will not work either.
If yahoo was getting many PRANK TIPS they would either disable or alter the NW requirements or go after the Pranksters.
posted on October 18, 2000 07:52:24 AM
GREAT post Yisgood. You said all the rest I meant to say in my last post. This vigilante talk is totally ridiculous and as far as I am concerned, the MAM can take their auctions elsewhere.
I think toyranch is doing all the rest of us a favor by not endorsing Yahoo auctions!
You are mistaken. I am not concerned with bringing a bunch of bogus auctions to Yahoo! at all. I would much rather see the number of auctions decrease and the quality increase. That brings more buyers. I don't make any money off MAM, I've not made a single penny from it. I have no motivation to see numbers rise at the expense of quality. The goals of MAM are to diversify auction selling and have real competition for ebaY. That isn't done with a bunch of bogus auctions.
"5. IF honest sellers would turn in the obvious offenders (those who drop tons of items into every conceivable category) and if these sellers or buyers would just focus on major offenders, then that would do a great deal to clean up the bulk lister who abuses the site."
jwpc,
That IS exactly what is happening. Toyranch, and his spamming buddy R--- would have you, and others, believe that all sellers are NWed. Which is absolutely false. He does not know what he is talking about, and neither does his spamming buddy R---. Toyranch does not support this group because he gets no credit for it, and he has no impact on it.
Toyranch
How nice of you to do that for Yahoo!. Do you think that Yahoo! has grown because of just your efforts, such as they are? What a swelled head you must have. Yahoo! is growing whether you exist or not. You don't bother to give any credit to all of the honest, hard working, rules following, sellers on Yahoo! do you? No, it's just your little march that you care about.
I am retired from a very large blue chip company. I was upper, yes upper, management. We occasionally had to lay out the red carpet for self proclaimed VIP's. Not that we thought they were VIP's, but higher management, or the CEO would say "Cater to these people, make them feel they are important, no need to rock their little boat", or something similar to that. Some of the comments made about such self proclaimed VIP's, are not printable in this forum.
Like management politicians, and government politicians, you tell people want they want to hear and make them feel important. Sometimes they are important, mostly they 'think' they are. CEO's and politicians don't take chances, because someday these people 'may' be important. But your interests are protected either way. It would be good for you to remember this little advice. Don't assume you are to be reckoned with, or have much influence or power, over anything. Some will just let you 'think' that, to appease you.
posted on October 18, 2000 08:01:12 AM
Couple of points.
#1 one person can get a seller's auctions pulled by writing here:
http://add.yahoo.com/fast/help/abuse/cgi_abuse
If there is a problem, Yahoo will take care of it in one fell swoop.
#2 On the posse and Toyranch not recommending Yahoo auctions because of them, I find it pretty hard to believe that there are not groups on Ebay doing the same thing. In fact I imagine their are various groups of people doing this round the clock.
#3 CharlieOne, you and your posts have been characterized as distasteful and I want say that I don't think so.
posted on October 18, 2000 08:12:08 AM
CharlieOne wrote:
"What you and your buddy R--- call the group is of no matter anyway. It's just another way of calling people names, only not being so blunt about it. Why you two are so against people letting Yahoo! know certain persons are hurting other sellers is very, very strange. Could it be maybe you are violating the TOS yourselves somewhere, and hoped to do it on Yahoo! too? We already know R--- was!"
All I can say is, huh? What exactly do "we already know?"
posted on October 18, 2000 08:56:22 AM
Like was mentioned earlier, the posse is comprised of grown adults. They don't NW for "speaking out against them", they NW if an auction is in violation of Yahoo's TOS.
posted on October 18, 2000 10:44:58 AM
I don't know much about Yahoo's policies- I rarely list there.
I do know something about both RM and Toyranch, and have found both to be honorable individuals who have spent countless hours working for the collective benefit of auction users.
The idea of a group working in private to decide whose auctions to target for adverse action by Yahoo is troubling to me. I'd feel a bit more comfortable with the idea if the group's discussions were held in a public forum- so that a falsely accused auction user at least had an opportunity to respond.
Does the "Posse" discuss these things in public? If so where?
Can anyone join the "Posse"? If it's a closed group, what are the requirements for admission? Can any auction user with a great feedback record be included? If not, why not?
posted on October 18, 2000 11:09:24 AM
I read the Yahoo club "Seller Zone" board regularly and think one needs to combine some of the history from there with this commentary to better understand it. No, I'm not a member of the posse, but evidently their primary spokesperson can be spotted there and has a Yahoo email she will respond to (maybe not if hate mail, but who knows...).
Also, with the background reading, I thought it was clear "R---" has 4 letters and meant one "R--s" and not Ray here at all. This other person had a bunch of posts deleted by the SZ founder after he appeared there ranting about the Posse over and over ad nauseum. Discussion of "Posse" issues have been barred by the SZ founder now to keep peace, so I'd suggest doing some reading and private email if you really want to pursue info about that group.
posted on October 18, 2000 11:21:30 AM
Interesting that people keep popping up saying 'I'm not a posse member' and then post supporting them and yet few are willing to post opposing their actions. I wonder if it has anything to do with fear? Fear that speaking out against the acts of the Posse will invite harassment? Or maybe it's because people like having a Posse riding through their neighborhood watching them... Somehow I doubt that.
Maybe that post was about the other person and not Ray. Yes, there were 2 auctions for the same item in 2 different categories. What dreadful abuse that was! There were floppy disks listed in both Computers and in Digital Cameras, as floppies are storage devices for both. You are right, this violator must be stopped! It's fine to list a 10 pack, a 25 pack and a 50 pack of disks, but if you list two 25 packs, call in the Posse...
posted on October 18, 2000 11:24:17 AM
Or maybe it's that there are more supporters of the posse than there are opposers. Just a wild idea there.
I for one, would rather have a posse riding through my neighborhood, keeping everyone in compliance with the rules, rather than having a bunch of troublemakers ruining the neighborhood.
posted on October 18, 2000 11:28:58 AM
No Toyranch I'm afraid your wrong about why no one else is speaking out against the posse here. Why not IF they didn't think the posse was doing a good and needed job of cleaning up yahoo auctions of scum.
There is no fear in posting HERE. Anyone can open a completely separate AW ID that would leave no ties to a selling ID on yahoo auctions and say whatever they like for or against the posse.
The reason many of us NON-Posse members support the posse is obvious. It makes a fair level playing field for our auctions and helps rid the site of offensive items that chase away our bidders.
Nothing puzzling about that to me.
posted on October 18, 2000 11:47:22 AM
OK, I've heard so much propaganda about "the posse" that I can no longer remain quiet!
Toyranch, Yahoo! Auctions is the one that started the Neighborhood Watch feature and, in essence, made every Yahoo! user a member of "the posse". Anyone with a positive feedback can participate in NW.
Now, whether a user chooses to participate in NW or not is up to them.
It is true that "a group" of posse members came together, figuring out that blatant violators of Yahoo! TOS could more efficiently be reported to Yahoo! "en masse". This group grew out of members of The Seller Zone. The name "posse" was derived from an unrelated e-mail that one SZ member received, signed by the "Yahoo! sheriff"....hence the name "posse"!
When NW activity began to dominate the board at the SZ, it was appropriately suggested that the members who were interested in NW form their own club. It was decided that a "private" club was in order, since it is against Yahoo! TOS to post any personal information about users in a "public" forum, like the SZ.
I was sent an "invite" to join this club, and joined....not because I have a burning passion to NW auctions (my "actions taken" number is still well below 100), but because I like to keep informed with all that goes on in the auction sites I sell on.
With all the controversy about "the posse", I have taken advantage of my club access to research "the posse's" activities.
Here are my conclusions:
(1.) The posse has been responsible for having many auctions being removed....true! Most are from Spammers, who flagrantly violate Yahoo! TOS, posting 4,5,6...up to hundreds of duplicate auctions at a time, and clutter up the Yahoo! site for the rest of us. The bulk of the rest are from users who post adult items outside of the adult area...many of the auctions containing full frontal nudity and pictures of individuals engaging in various kinds of sex acts. A very few are from users who violate TOS by not running "real" auctions, but using the forum to place their "web-site" or "links" in the auction description.
(2.) There are NO documented cases where a person's auctions have been targeted by "the posse", where a TOS violation did not exist. There are no cases where a person's auctions were targeted simply because they do not support the posse's actions. In regard to any possible violations that were in a "gray area", one "posse" member always contacted Yahoo! and received clarification from Yahoo! before any NW action was taken. The members of the "posse" were very deliberate...and very responsible...in their actions.
(3.) In ALL cases where a user came forth in the SZ, where their auctions had been NW'ed, the auctions either violated TOS or, if they didn't, they were not targeted by the "group" actions of the posse as recorded in the club posts. The "posse" has unfairly received credit for a LOT of NW's by sellers...some of these NW's were given justly and MANY were given unjustly. The posse didn't do it...they were just "present" to be assigned the blame. The posse DOES NOT harass users, just for the sake of harassment. If they NW an auction, it is a justified complaint. And, yes, ultimately Yahoo! makes the final determination!
The "posse" just took the tool given them and cooperated to make the tool more efficient and useful. Their "cause" is to help rid the Yahoo! Auction site of spammers, fraud, and out of category pornography....because it will make the Yahoo! auction site a better place to sell...for them, for you, and for me.
Toyranch, what makes YOUR cause any more noble than the posse's? You just have a different method. Ultimately, both you and the posse are trying to achieve the same end, to help create a viable auction site, like Yahoo! that can effectively compete against the "bully", eBay.
Yahoo! Auctions, because it is fee-free, suffers more from spammers than eBay. You wouldn't see a seller post 1000 auctions for the same item on eBay, when it's going to cost at least a quarter each to do so.
A lot has been said about "vigilantes". Sometimes, there is a need for it. The settling of the West is full of records of groups who joined together for a mutual cause. The Internet is the new frontier. As it matures, the need for groups like "the posse" will decrease, as they did in the Old West.
I agree that perhaps Yahoo! should take a more active role in policing their auctions on their own. Yahoo! is responsible for their site. Anyone can abuse the NW feature and Yahoo! ultimately has the responsbility to see that those that do abuse it, are dealt with properly. But I'd bet that "the posse" will not have any casualties from the increased scrutiny on their NW actions, as they know the Yahoo! TOS and are responsible in their actions.
The concept that "the posse" is doing this in strictly their own self interest is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG! Several members are hard working sellers, whose integrity is unimpeachable, based on my prior experiences with them at the SZ. They honestly want to see Yahoo! Auctions succeed...for everyone.
Toyranch, as I said, Yahoo! is the one who instituted the NW program. If there is blame to be placed here, blame Yahoo!, not the posse! The posse is NOT abusing the NW system, only using it to the best advantage to achieve their goal of making Yahoo! Auctions a better place for all sellers.
You don't like NW? Convince Yahoo! to change it. I'm sure "the posse" would welcome any alternative method of enforcement that was an improvement on the present system. But "the posse" is not your enemy...unless you are a spammer or TOS violator.
posted on October 18, 2000 11:52:45 AM
George, that was a great post. You might want to post it over in the Posse thread started over on the OTWA forum. I'm afraid the story being posted over there is very one-sided.
posted on October 18, 2000 12:22:00 PM
Thanks gawooley.
Is the Posse interested in a wide variety of auction users' views? How does one get invited to join? Is it invitation only?
[ edited by magazine_guy on Oct 18, 2000 12:22 PM ]
posted on October 18, 2000 12:26:30 PMtoyranch As I said in my post, the "private" club was started in the beginning...because some information that might be posted in the forum might be deemed by Yahoo! to be "personal information". It is a violation of Yahoo! TOS to post certain personal information in a public club, but it is not a TOS violation to post it in a private club. The Founders of the SZ have had to remove several posts because the members were not aware that they were violating TOS by posting personal information about another member.
It was done out of necessity, at first. Now, I'm sure that several members are glad that was the case, as they would likely be targeted for retaliation, based on all this "bad press" they have gotten...again most of it totally unwarranted.
posted on October 18, 2000 12:31:28 PM
I see gawooley...
You are a member of the secret group and you have reviewed the actions of the group and have found them to be noble and just, so everyone else should accept that?
And you say that there is a need for 'vigilantes'?
And the 'Posse' is responsible for their actions? Responsible to whom?
posted on October 18, 2000 12:43:40 PM
Steve, I can't answer that question. I was sent an invitation months ago...when the club first started. I might have made a half dozen posts in the club in that time...mostly non-auction related posts.
I know the Founder reads the posts here...perhaps she will respond to your question.
I'm just tired of members of this group receiving credit for things that they did not do...at least NOT as a group. The targeting of these individuals is wrong...if you want to target the Yahoo! NW program, that is fine!
I have received all posts from this club by e-mail for several months now, so there is no way they could be edited. There is no sign of "abuse" present in the posts.
Sure, there is ALWAYS concern that the NW feature could be abused. But it could just as easily be abused by one person with 4 I.D.s as a "group". It falls back to Yahoo! to monitor that abuse does not occur. I'll bet that Yahoo!, with the increased scrutiny on this issue is taking a hard look at what this group has been doing. I'll also bet that they will find that these sellers have been very responsible in their NW actions.
posted on October 18, 2000 01:03:57 PM
Need for vigilante group? There was a need for Yahoo! to clean up their auction site....it had become crowded with many, many duplicate auctions that cluttered the categories, etc...
The SZ members explored the "definition" of what spam was on Yahoo! auctions...with Yahoo! They said only one auction on the site was allowed for any item...any more should be run as Dutch auctions. Yahoo! instituted Neighborhood Watch in an effort to have the users help rid the site of TOS violators. This group just found a more efficient way of using it.
Responsible? By responsible, I mean there are clear cut TOS violations in the auctions being targeted. Yes, that's my opinion...but one based on educated knowledge, not supposition and innuendo.
You see...I am a former Founder of the SZ...and the folks who've been around at the SZ for any time know that I shoot straight. I'm just setting the record straight, because this small group is getting credit for so many things that they are not responsible in doing.
I was talking to Yahoo! Auction management months before you ever did,toyranch...even coordinated the first ever meeting between the SZ members and the Yahoo! staff.
posted on October 18, 2000 01:05:43 PM
I'm copying an old post I made about this issue weeks ago because my opinion hasn't changed so why re-type LOL.
"The issue that concerns me is people with hundreds of spam and non-auction listings. All I do is email Yahoo direct about them. I'm certainly not spending my time clicking hundreds of ads but if the Posse has 4 members that want to I certainly don't object. The end result is the ads get removed either way.
Before NW began I emailed Yahoo direct about illegal ads and I still do. It's no different than eBay safeharbor which only requires a complaint email from one member.
I never thought NW was a good idea in the first place since it took 4 people to get Yahoo to review one ad. It was Yahoo's fault for making people think "ganging up" was necessary with that rule. (It's not actually necessary because members can email direct.) It's also their fault for not policing their own site."
------
Now I will add it would be pretty stupid for anyone, Posse member of not, to NW without cause. I do NW when it's only a few ads and I get replies that my NW has resulted in __ # of ads removed. Obviously they keep a record of who's doing the NW'ing and how much. I don't think anyone who abuses NW with phony reports would have their own ID very long. As Yisgood & Charlie said whoever was doing it to them was stopped. I'm sure there are abusers of the system but I seriously doubt they are Posse members because they would know better than to jeopardize their own ID's.
Gawooley, Thanks for your insider scoop.
Magazine_guy, With all the bad press they've been getting lately I doubt new memberships are being accepted for fear of spies.
Toyranch, The NW program has only been around a short time. As stated above it's not even a necessary tool. If they scraped it spammers, porn dealers etc. would still get booted due to emails from individuals like me so I fail to see the huge problem you have with it. Disband the Posse, dump NW-whatever- wouldn't affect me one way or the other. Or any of those sellers you now refuse to refer.
If a seller gets NW'ed they get a warning letter giving them a day or 2 to close offending ads before they go to Yahoo review. If they leave them open it's their own fault for ignoring the warning. On the other hand, if NW was gone & it was left up to users to email direct the sellers ads would simply be deleted BOOM no warning or chances. I guess you'd like that better?
posted on October 18, 2000 01:07:00 PM
Sorry, I didn't realize that posted twice. This thread is long enough without that!
[ edited by kasmoon on Oct 18, 2000 02:24 PM ]
posted on October 18, 2000 01:20:04 PM
hey kasman, good point! I can remember a few sellers showing up on the SZ crying the blues that all their auctions were zapped overnight and that was way before the NW.
The NW does give sellers breaking the TOS
more of a chance to correct their ways before that would happen.
of course I'm sure the naysayers will find
something else to say even though ALL their arguments have been ripped to shreds. In fact their argument is so weak it is ridiculous to keep on discussing this.
"And the 'Posse' is responsible for their actions? Responsible to whom?"
Apparently you are never going to get it, are you? Yahoo! makes all calls on NW activities, ALL. We are responsible to Yahoo! for everything, we all do, on their site. They run it, they own it, and they make the decisions on it. We need to follow the TOS (their rules). Got it? I hope.
George,
That was the best post I have ever read pertaining to this subject. Anyone who does not understand clearly now, exactly what the Posse is, and how it acts, never will. It's a shame that a group of concerned auctioneers with many years of experiance, in all areas, with exceptional feedback files all. Giving many unpaid hours of time. Are talked about in such a disrepectful, witch hunting way. And I might add, by persons who don't know what is really going on?
They look to call names, make false accusations, and in general defend the actions of those who violate the rules. These rule breakers hurt us all. The Posse is NOT breaking ANY rules. These rules were set by Yahoo!, and the Posse follows them to the letter. Unlike some who are complaining. toyranch made comments in the SZ about how following the rules wasn't that important. When he caught flack for that, he reversed himself 180 degrees, and is now all for following the rules? Very confusing toyranch.
People who switch their opinions, from con to pro so easily, will never understand. They are juggling to many personal priorities. Then they have the politician attitude, of acting several ways at once. I'm glad I stick with my convictions and principals. Being a person who tries to juggle all of those contradictory statements, is not my style.
toyranch, why don't you run for president. You may fit in there real nice. R--- could be your speech advisor. Only problem there is, he is really redundant in his material.
