posted on March 14, 2001 11:37:55 AM
James,
You are correct.
I am saddened though that the mainstream media doesn't expose this cult for what it is: a religious extremist group who have insinuated themselves into becoming a handmaiden to congress, senate and the presidency (and therefore the the supreme court).
It's ONE reason Repubs and Democrats revile one another.
It's a ploy to keep them battling it out so no one agrees long enough to do something about campaign finance reform (for example).
So we live in a society that bombs and shoots doctors offices...better that than let women live their lives?
I guess it's enough to just ignore it. But start at the first paragraph and read it again. Then you see why it's hard to ignore.
Besides...if they had sperm rights, maybe more guys would be mad too.
posted on March 14, 2001 11:38:40 AM
KatyD, God wasn't mentioned in this thread until you brought it up. I realize no one likes to be 'baptized with an iron skillet' for any religion. That doesn't do any good, and I haven't done that. On the other hand there isn't anything wrong with talking about God, is there?
posted on March 14, 2001 11:43:13 AM
I dunno, James. Normally, I quite agree with you. I guess I've just reached my limit with the sort of tactic used. I avoid abortion threads, as a rule. They're too painful to too many good people...on both sides. And I'm confident, not a single viewpoint will be changed.
I'm not one to run to the moderators, so I thought I'd take my complaint to the source...the poster.
posted on March 14, 2001 11:44:29 AM
barrybarris, it's a fact that many people don't know what PBA entails. Apparently you already do know. What's wrong with putting out the information for those that don't know?
thanks toke, I do know how to post to a link...but how would I post MS Word document?
posted on March 14, 2001 11:49:26 AM
The initial post in this thread is indeed revolting and disgusting. There is simply no way to describe this barbaric "procedure" without being revolting and disgusting. This "procedure" needs to be banned ASAP IMO.
To those who suggest a link in lieu of the description, it's easy to stop reading after the first sentence or two. It's quite obvious what is to follow should one continue reading.
posted on March 14, 2001 11:55:32 AM
It is true that the gestational age at which fetus may survive has greatly reduced in our lifetime, and presumable a percentage of those aborted between 20 and 24 weeks could survive if given adequate medical attention. But some of those, despite the best care, will be handicapped.
Abortions commonly take place in this grey area of gestation. Women don't always know they are pregnant until they are at least 8 weeks pregnant, sometimes later. It then takes some time to think through what is right for them, for their lives and circumstances. Do you think women would purposefully wait, so that they could endure the death of a fetus that is near viability? Malformations, disablements, handicaps - imperfections of any sort - are often not picked up until 16-18 weeks. Again, choices need time to make. Questions arise like: "How handicapped? Would I be able to cope? How will it impact on the rest of the family?"
I presume that doctors could choose to have such a fetus "born" and die on the table, struggling for breath, or whatever. Or they could use up huge amounts of medical resources to maintain the live of the newborn, premature baby. Who will pay for the medical care? Who will pay for the ensuing medical care of a handicapped, aborted baby?
Doctors don't just go around "killing" a baby because they feel like it. They are faced with an unwanted fetus, a mother who doesn't intend to look after it, no one who will take responsibility for it if it "lives". If I was a doctor, I would see this procedure as a lesser evil - to ensure the death of the fetus before it has a chance to be born completely alive, or to have it struggling to live with a pretty high chance of disablement.
This is not easy for anyone, mzalez, and thrusting it into people's faces does your stand no favours. People KNOW it is unpleasant, but sometimes... sometimes...
Never condemn until you have stood in their shoes.
posted on March 14, 2001 11:56:48 AM
Are you saying we're all too stupid and/or uninformed to know what a PBA is?
toke, no of course not, especially on the 'too stupid' part. The fact is many people don't know what PBA entails.
capriole, bombing and shooting isn't part of mine, either.
Well, I've got to finish packaging and get to the post office before it closes. I'll be back later this evening to see your comments. Thanks to those who have posted so far.
hi mivona, I missed your post...the thread is not condemning anyone (the shoes you speak of, I've been in them!). The thread serves as an exposé of PBA.
[ edited by mzalez on Mar 14, 2001 12:00 PM ]
posted on March 14, 2001 12:01:47 PMmzalez...OK, so now that you've stated these "facts", what type of discussion would you like to ensue?
Reading the details of something, that I doubt happens very often, does not make me want to swing to the Pro-Life side, but only makes me wonder why the Pro-Lifers are willing to go to such lengths to talk about the hidious, without addressing the problem of birth control and over-population so we can all talk nicely.
If what you describe is actually going on, then the doctors and patients will have to live with their decisions. Sometimes the world just isn't a nice place, and the decisions we have to make in this life are ours alone and alone we are accountable for them. This, to me, is Pro-Choice.
Do not dare to patronize me. If we are not too stupid, in your view, then we must be uninformed. Otherwise who, pray tell, are you presuming to educate?
Feel free to edit. If you can't find a link...no matter...edit anyway. I assure you, we know what a PBA is.
posted on March 14, 2001 12:12:55 PM
I'm sorry if my posts offend some of you. I'm just stating my opinions here and I have no reason to feel they are any more disgusting than some of the others I have read. The truth as I see it.
Trying to justify such a barbaric procedure is disgusting IMO. But I won't criticize your opinions, only debate against them.
[ edited by dubyasdaman on Mar 14, 2001 12:14 PM ]
posted on March 14, 2001 12:25:41 PM
At face value, I find that making a distinction between partial birth abortions and standard abortions is absurd.
Both, in my opinion, are murder.
However, I can understand why anti-abortionists are mounting the PBA crusade: if they can get any abortions at all stopped, it's worth it. Some lives will be saved. Also, it gives them a foot in the door to overturning Roe v. Wade altogether.
I also understand why they use the gross-out tactic as a weapon. The problem with abortion, as I see it, is that our sanitized society has removed it from our sight. I think if everyone had to witness the abortion process, if everyone had to be exposed first-hand to its results and view the bloody remains, pro-choice would likely have fewer proponents. But nobody wants to take on that responsibility. They'd rather just argue the pros and cons of an abstract, bloodless concept. And once the truth about what abortion truly entails starts rearing its head, these same people take umbrage. Their attitude seems to be, How dare you talk to me of fetuses being sucked out of wombs, being chopped up, or burned in saline! How dare you show me such pictures! How dare you subject me to such discussion! You awful, awful person!
But in truth, which is really worse? Offending the sensibilities of the public for a few minutes, or terminating a life through a barbaric medical procedure?
In my opinion, abortion is an act of convenience. I guess it's only natural that those who support abortion would want discussions about it to be nice and convenient too.
posted on March 14, 2001 12:33:26 PM
Saying that doctors are in it for the money is the same that out gay, lesbian, bisexual and trangendered persons "choose" to be. Who would choose that? The hardships, the second-class citizenship and so on would not help people to choose to be out. That is when they choose to live a lie (as a heterosexual) or in the closet.
Doctors, nurses and other people are putting their lives on the line -literally- to provide the service. Some are threatened to lose patients because the patients disagree with the service. Some do lose patients because the patients disagree with the service.
The faculties and personnel are oftentimes targeted in different strategy tactics to shut them down -or to shut them up.
BTW it was I who posted the pro-choice petition thread the other day after you posted your anti-abortion petition thread to give people a "choice." Both were deleted....
posted on March 14, 2001 12:33:42 PM
Spaz, I know how we kill animals for our dinner plates and yet I eat meant. I have seen the pictures and I don't care to see them again. It will not make me not eat meat.
I have seen the pictures of aborted fetuses since before some of you were even born,since before Roe v Wade.I don't care to see them again. It will not change my view on abortion. Perhaps having lived through the times when abortions were illegal gives a different perspective to some of us.Not all---I would never say all.
posted on March 14, 2001 12:38:35 PMOffending the sensibilities of the public for a few minutes, or terminating a life through a barbaric medical procedure?
Or subjecting a child to a lifetime of being unwanted, unloved and in care, or being handicapped, unwanted, unloved and in care...
In my opinion, abortion is an act of convenience. I guess it's only natural that those who support abortion would want discussions about it to be nice and convenient too.
There is nothing that is convenient about abortion. It seems that anti-abortionists have this image of women going around purposefully, or wantonly, getting pregnant, and then deciding to just have abortions. Sure, there may be SOME who do that, I don't know any. But there are thousands and thousands who agonise over the decision to end the life inside them. They have to endure the reality of that, they have to live with the consequences of that. To try to paint them as unthinking, unwitting, and immoral compounds the pain they have already suffered.
posted on March 14, 2001 12:39:46 PM
Cheap, sensationalist tactics like these, only serve to alienate those he wishes to convert to his point of view. And to call it "education" is both patronizing and presumptuous...not to mention counterproductive.
Doesn't do much to further his stated desire of a "nice" discussion.
