posted on March 14, 2001 09:46:33 PM new
"Since when does it just take the woman to have a baby by herself with a "choice"? Immaculate conception, is it?"
I never said a woman has the baby on their own, but since you bring it up, I'll add this: Men are just as responsible for a pregnancy as a woman, yet men don't have a choice when it comes to having an abortion. Unless it is rape, both male and female choose to have sex, they choose whether or not to use birth control,,,but when it comes to the final decision if a pregnacy occurs, neither the man or the child has any choice.
Katy,,,what choices are you referring to that men must make?
posted on March 14, 2001 09:47:23 PM new
Seems to have something to do with those Supreme Court Justices we all know and love,KatyD. >>>>>eyerolling gif<<<<<<<
I know I hang on their every word. They are so honest and picked such a good president for us.
posted on March 14, 2001 09:52:10 PM new
Im posting to this thread because I can. How about you? Still trying to instill your views and everyone who doesnt agree is wrong? How christian of you. You ARE the same mzalez, are you not, that preaches whenever possible?
TTH, you are correct in saying the man doesnt usually have a choice on whether the baby should be aborted. Perhaps he will have more of a say when he can carry a child himself? I heard on the news that there was a survey done, asking men IF there was a way in the future for men to be able to bear children, would they? Most said no. Men have no clue as to what childbirth means, nor what the woman feels as her body changes, or what happened to MAKE it change. Even male doctors have no clue. Until they can experience it firsthand, I suppose they have no say.
posted on March 14, 2001 09:55:07 PM new
If you are referring to me, I stated in my first post I was not pro-choice. Also, I asked a question and stated my opinions, I didn't flame anyone.
My true colors are I do not agree with abortion. I believe in education. I simply asked a question and wanted a straight honest answer.
posted on March 14, 2001 09:56:40 PM newKaty,,,what choices are you referring to that men must make?
How bout they just keep it in their pants? That will work.
posted on March 14, 2001 09:58:10 PM new
TTH, you are brave to post here. "Men are just as responsible for a pregnancy as a woman, yet men don't have a choice when it comes to having an abortion. " I agree.
"How bout they just keep it in their pants? That will work." So women have a choice...keep the knees together.
posted on March 14, 2001 09:59:41 PM new
"TTH, you are correct in saying the man doesnt usually have a choice on whether the baby should be aborted. Perhaps he will have more of a say when he can carry a child himself? I heard on the news that there was a survey done, asking men IF there was a way in the future for men to be able to bear children, would they? Most said no. Men have no clue as to what childbirth means, nor what the woman feels as her body changes, or what happened to MAKE it change. Even male doctors have no clue. Until they can experience it firsthand, I suppose they have no say."
Thank you very much for an honest post, Hepburn. I respect your opinion.
I'm always on the fence with this topic, it's so hard for a man to understand what a woman goes through during a pregnancy and I couldn't begin to imagine making a choice to end one.
Then I sway when I look at my son and think of the child. I honestly don't mean to be inflammatory here, it's just such a tough topic to me.
posted on March 14, 2001 10:01:09 PM new
Hepburn, You are right! When a mans body can do what a womans body can then they can have some say. Until then I guess the only solution is for them to withhold their sperm. That is the best way for them to control the number of abortions done in this country. Do you think men are up to that??
TTH, Yes you said you were not pro-choice. Right up front. Thank you.Trouble is we've been down that bumpy road before and I am unwilling to take this discussion again to that level. You may if you wish. I cannot stop you. BUT I am not going to go there.
posted on March 14, 2001 10:06:33 PM new
Thanks for the answer rawbunzel, hard to answer such a question. I'm sorry I even brought it up, after thinking a bit. I didn't want to cause an argument but the question is so loaded it can't help but happen.
posted on March 14, 2001 10:08:56 PM newSo women have a choice...keep the knees together.
Ah but therin lies the rub, mzalez. And now we finally get to the whole crux of the matter. You see the ability to give birth is power. And that's what the whole thing is about. You see women can still get pregnant and give birth or not, even if *gasp* they keep the knees together. In fact, the gay couple across the street from me have one child together, and are expecting their second child this July. And guess what? They didn't need to open their knees for any man, unless you count the gynecologist at the sperm bank, and that might have been a woman. So it all boils down to power. We have it, men don't. And they absolutely can't stand it. And that's what this whole issue is REALLY about. Amazing power.
posted on March 14, 2001 10:14:23 PM new
Keep their KNEES TOGETHER??? Oh. Remind the rape victims of that, will you? "Now make sure you keep your knees together, dear".
TTH, I feel badly for the men who WANT their children, even when the birth mother chooses to give it up for adoption and never told the father. There are instances where it is a sad fact that he has no say, until too late. The difference with your questions is attitude, and the desire to know and not judge, unlike one poster here who seems to enjoy talking about collapsed heads of babies. All for education, of course.
Should I put in a to make it seem I am not addressing the poster, but the topic?
posted on March 14, 2001 10:17:32 PM new"'How bout they just keep it in their pants? That will work.' So women have a choice...keep the knees together."
Nice rhetoric. Too bad it does not apply to couples that planned and wanted a baby and then have major complications jeopardizing the life of the mother during pregnancy. Abstinence is a good start in trying to curb the number of general abortions, but not necessarily in curbing the number of D&X procedures. Who can really predict when such a procedure will be deemed to be medically necessary?
ubb is killing me tonight
[ edited by debbielennon on Mar 14, 2001 10:19 PM ]
posted on March 14, 2001 10:18:34 PM new
Katy, undeniably we are not speaking of a mere mass of tissue. It is a bit more complex then "power". In fact, if you'd like to go that route, it was a male Supreme Court that granted woman the right to choose. How benevolent. The issue is a complex ethical one. Our contemporary society's understanding and evaluation of the abortion issue is that the value outweighs the negative and therefore women have their right to choose (the same can be said with any rights). Almost no issue or action is all good or all bad, and such is the case with abortion. To deny that there is any negative whatever, and to equate an abortion with something like having your wisdom teeth pulled reveals either a lack of understanding of the issue itself, or an indifference to human life. It's possible to be pro-choice and not be jubilant about abortion and to not take it lightly. It is a life altering choice, and should be treated with the gravity that all such decisions require.
posted on March 14, 2001 10:19:10 PM new
katyd, according to the survey I saw on television, the men didnt WANT the power. Cant say I blame them. Probably smarts a bit.
posted on March 14, 2001 10:19:24 PM new
Power??? Now that one I don't understand, I don't want to control anyones decisions, male or female. Katy you seem to look at this as men vs. women.
You are forgetting one simple fact, without men there would be no sperm, without women, men couldn't impregnate anyone.
The gay couple across the street couldn't have that child without a man somewhere, a male gay couple couldn't have a child without a woman somewhere.
As far as power goes, I'll tell you this, women certainly are the most powerful creatures on earth. They have to ability to make just about any man do whatever they want, just ask my wife....she'll tell ya.
posted on March 14, 2001 10:21:41 PM new
mzalez---you lucky that you are able to look for a larger home--I am assuming you mean to purchase. Your family sounds like they are doing quite well...and have the ability to make wonderful choices.
Not to get to personal and you don't have to answer and you can't even be down right cranky at me if you wish--but now I need to ask... Were you able to have children of your own??--and is this adopted child someone that others might call unadoptable???
posted on March 14, 2001 10:29:17 PM new
James, it is unfortunate that men-be they Supreme Court Justices or not- think they have the right or the ability to "grant" women the right to choose what to do with their own bodies.
Imagine if you will that "Alien abductions" are real. What if by some chance YOU were impregnated.Something began to grow inside you, you didn't want it there, your body was getting all misshapen and the creature began to wriggle around in there!!!You would do almost anything to get it out of there!!!
OK far fetched...but there are women who feel that way about being pregnant.Why should they ever be forced to carry a baby?I do not believe in late term abortions but RU486 or early abortions are OK by me. Keeping your knees together does not work![how rediculous] I know this from personal experience.
posted on March 14, 2001 10:31:16 PM new
I'm about done for tonite. But yes, power. And if y'all don't think that the ability to give birth is the ultimate power, then you're missing the boat.
James I hardly need a lecture about the "gravity" of making a decision such as abortion. You see, I have that power. You don't. I've never referred to it lightly nor compared the procedure to having "wisdom teeth pulled". It is a deeply personal decision that only a woman can make based upon her own evaluation of life circumstances. I have not known a single woman to make such a decision "lightly", nor once made, to be "jubilant" about it. That is the most condescending post I have ever seen you make.
posted on March 14, 2001 10:37:32 PM new
I don't know if you do or don't need a lecture. All I know is that an abortion is not a "rah rah rah girl power :P men" thing. I try not to be condescending, but I also try to call it as I see it, and that's what I saw.
[ edited by jamesoblivion on Mar 14, 2001 10:42 PM ]
posted on March 14, 2001 10:41:04 PM new
By the way, that question about a man getting pregnant isn't relevant to me as I am very much pro-choice. I didn't mean to imply that it is men that inherently grant women that right. My point was that it is a historical fact that a male court upheld a woman's right to choose. Where's the power in that?
[ edited by jamesoblivion on Mar 14, 2001 10:43 PM ]
posted on March 14, 2001 10:43:41 PM new
There's no "rah rah"ing going on here, James. The simple fact is that women have power in the ability to give birth (or not). It is a power that men will never have. It is a biological incontrovertible fact. We have the power to give birth, we have the power to not give birth. It is our bodies. Our decision. Our power. And that irks the hell out of *some* people.
KatyD
[ edited by KatyD on Mar 14, 2001 10:45 PM ]
posted on March 14, 2001 10:44:45 PM new
Actually Katy, what I meant was I tried to keep my knees together.I was very young-and very foolish.
James there are other kinds of power than "rah-rah girl power". Men of old knew this very well. Thus women have been kept "down" for centuries. Women won the right to have an abortion by getting together and protesting, burning their bras and some [this is hard to understand] refused to fix dinner for their husbands! Finally the men in power at the time gave in. They wanted to eat. Simplified.
I do not say this to be funny, although I would like to keep it "light". I do not hate men or dislike men but the truth is men have had all the power in the world EXCEPT the ability to carry children. It is about power.
posted on March 14, 2001 10:45:11 PM newIt is a deeply personal decision that only a woman can make based upon her own evaluation of life circumstances. I have not known a single woman to make such a decision "lightly", nor once made, to be "jubilant" about it.
posted on March 14, 2001 10:46:02 PM new
Fine, but not me. Maybe that's why I'm not seeing it as a power issue. I'm also younger then Roe v. Wade, so it was an accepted fact of life for me. And it's late. I dunno. I'll read it all again tomorrow.
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