It's all in there, all you need to know. No need to try to explain it to you, all over again. I have a feeling you won't get it anyway. Why waste all of AW space covering it again.
posted on October 19, 2000 06:11:27 PM new
Verymodern - I happen to agree with you about Ebay's VERO program, I think that system is full of abuse. I fight tooth and nail every chance I get when I see that someone's auctions have been wrongly terminated. (I don't force my help down anyone's throat however, I only help if they ask).
Doesn't matter, Ebay doesn't listen to me. One of the people defending the Possee said that it takes at least three emails to get a human being to respond to you at all, so I don't believe Yahoo is quite as "on top" of things as they should be. If they were, they wouldn't need the NW program in the first place.
If it takes three emails just to get a response to any problem, why would a complaint from a wrongfully-accused seller or even an accused seller garner any attention from Yahoo.
Yahoo isn't very well-organized as to their management. If they get four complaints, even though four people conspired to place these complaints, and the seller isn't defending himself (cause he doesn't know these four complaints have been lodged until Yahoo tells him, if ever) they aren't likely to investigate.
They are simply going to take the easy way out and accept the word of the NW members, (yeah I know Ebay does this as well and I think it sucks big-time).
posted on October 19, 2000 06:13:40 PM new
Charlieone - Thank you for your assistance, but I don't believe that I asked for an explanation from anyone.
Believe it or not, I do "get it", it's just that I don't agree with "it".
Ummm, I haven't been contacted by anyone at AW about wasting their space, but they certainly know how to get in touch with me should they wish to discuss the matter.
posted on October 19, 2000 06:35:23 PM new
Charlieone and Greeneyedmonkey;
There is one other thing I wonder about. I checked Yahoo and both those registerations are new with zero feedback ratings, therefore these IDs have been newly created.
Of course, you can use any ID you wish anywhere you wish. However, if you truly believe that Neighborhood Watch is a good program, protecting Yahoo sellers and buyers, and that the NW members are conscientious, upstanding and honest members of Ebay, I have a question.
If you believe that, why are you hesitant to use your real Yahoo ID on these posts? If you truly believe you are performing a valuable service, why would you fear retalitation?
I agree with you about sending Yahoo! your complaints and suggestions regarding Neighborhood Watch. I did.
The problem isn't really so much this particular "posse". It's the NW program itself. If this "posse" is neutralized, another one will follow. It's not just the organized groups with the power to pass judgement on others, it's every Yahoo! member. The NW program itself must be stopped or better managed by Yahoo!
Lots of letters to Yahoo! and maybe some bad press would do a lot more good than trying to convince the vigilantes themselves of anything. Just my opinion of course.
posted on October 19, 2000 07:32:44 PM new
Ray, good point. I hadn't thought about one group simply replacing another. Perhaps now that this program is more open to scrunity, more letters will follow and the program will be altogether ended.
posted on October 19, 2000 07:38:24 PM new
If you want to contact Yahoo! about the Posse or the Neighborhood Watch program, here are a couple of good places to do it:
If you speak up for the NW program, you get NWed by those who don't like it, hence the ID. If you all hate it so much, why is that? Maybe you are among those hurting us all with your spam, etc. Many spam "sellers" have multiple ID's to protect their violations. They complain about the NW with one, while spamming with the other. How many ID's do you have?
posted on October 19, 2000 07:53:16 PM new
toyranch
LOL, LOL, LOL. That's really very funny, can't stop laughing. Contact Customer Care abuse, about persons contacting Customer Care about abuse. LOL, LOL, LOL.
posted on October 19, 2000 08:00:19 PM new
Charlieone - You mean someone would complain about your auctions to Yahoo, and you might get two or three complaints about which Yahoo would do nothing except say "hey, you got these complaints - better do something or we'll sic Customer Care on you".
So it's okay for you Possee members to do this, but not okay to have someone do it to you?
Of course, no one in the Possee would ever abuse the system, but all those other people on Yahoo just can't be trusted not to mess with the Possee's auctions, is that it?
Yep, makes sense. Do unto others before they do unto you.
Toyranch - Thanks for the links. I did send an email to Yahoo, but sent another one to the links you provided. Nice to be able to know exactly where to direct my puny lil' thoughts.
posted on October 19, 2000 08:20:01 PM new
Charlie~ Glad I gave you such a good laugh!
Jada~ Sending them to abuse will help wake abuse up and then wind up in the weekly team meetings (after a while) and sending them to suggestions will wind up coallated into the weekly team meetings a little quicker.
Email is good too, of course. Yahoo! isn't terribly responsive, but they do read all that stuff, a lot more than is generally believed...
posted on October 19, 2000 08:29:11 PM newJada when you said:
Charlieone - You mean someone would complain about your auctions to Yahoo, and you might get two or three complaints about which Yahoo would do nothing except say "hey, you got these complaints - better do something or we'll sic Customer Care on you".
So it's okay for you Possee members to do this, but not okay to have someone do it to you?
Of course, no one in the Possee would ever abuse the system, but all those other people on Yahoo just can't be trusted not to mess with the Possee's auctions, is that it?
Yep, makes sense. Do unto others before they do unto you
I had to say: LOL, LOL, LOL. That's really very funny, can't stop laughing. You have hit upon the true concept of this foul vigilante group, you have hit to the heart of this issue. LOL, LOL, LOL.
They must remain hidden in order to be free from the same attacks that they are doing to others!
GREAT POST, Jada!
Keep it up, they grow ever weaker with every post.
http://www.AIMILC.NE.JP
Inter Logic Ichinomiya, Japan
[ edited by WataruMurofushi on Oct 19, 2000 08:30 PM ]
posted on October 19, 2000 08:31:27 PM new
Charlieone - You did ask a valid question, even though it seemed to be somewhat sarcastic.
You wanted to know why I hated the NW program so much. Communication about any part of a seller's auctions should be between Yahoo and the seller. If complaints are received about a particular auction, Yahoo should contact the seller and resolve the problem, (maybe not always to the seller's satisfaction but at least with direct communication).
Forming a group known as the "possee" smacks of secrecy, of going behind others' backs and tattle-telling without notifying the seller that complaints are being made. One complaint should be enough to generate a response from Yahoo. There shouldn't be a group of elitists who have the power to terminate auctions through conspiracy (emailing others to get the requisite four complaints).
All transactions and communication should be open and above board. With this program Yahoo is projecting the image of a corporation who is too busy to care about their sellers and have abdicated their responsibility to a group with no training, no guidelines and who may have their own personal agendas.
True, this situation is nowhere near as serious as those occurring during the McCarthy era. However, the similarities are striking. If four people decide you are guilty, you are guilty until Yahoo investigates, (which they may or may not do - they may simply take the Possee's word), and it is up to you to prove your innonence.
Also, do these additonal three Possee members truly believe you are guilty or are they simply obliging their friends because they may want the favor returned at some point?
If for some reason Yahoo decides not to bother with you, as the seller previously mentioned in this thread, you're just up the creek without a paddle. Your livlihood is affected because four people interpreted your auctions as being somehow in violation, and their true motives (however pure) are unknown to the seller, to Yahoo and to Yahoo members.
If Yahoo won't take the time to interpret their own rules and investigate violations, what qualifies the Possee to do so?
Oh well, I have a feeling you won't get it anyway so why waste AW space covering all of it again.
posted on October 19, 2000 09:14:56 PM new
Well, much as I enjoy a good debate, I gotta go out of town tomorrow (actually do have to do something besides post ever so often), so won't be around for the next week or so.
posted on October 19, 2000 09:19:39 PM new
LET ME SAY FOR THE RECORD SOME FACTS, NOT SCIENCE FICTION !!!
1. i am not a member of the posse, and i do know some of the members in it. they are fine people who care, and trying to make yahoo a better place for sellers, and bidders alike.
2. one of the founders their was also a founder in one of my clubs, and i got to know her for awhile, she is a super person with a friendly attitude, and fair.
3. i agree with robert on the seller zone, that it should be used for helping sellers do a better job on the internet, and he shows patients more than i would with some people coming in their running the posse down, and that is all they do is wanting to start a arguement.
4. you can't please everyone in this world of ours, all the time. and their will always be different points of view.
5. i am here to sell, and not play games, as on addict, ebay, yahoo, whatever, my main goal is to please my customer, and to learn as much as possible, but sometimes the trash that is on the internet sometimes is way out of line.
6. yahoo like so many other auction houses, try to cut corners like all businesses, and yes they don't have the staff to police yahoo auctions, etc, like it should be done.
7. but because they are free, we should be more understanding , and support them in anyway we can.
8. the posse is doing that, they may not be perfect, and they may make some mistakes along the way, but they have given their time to help the greater whole.
9. the posse knows what is good for us, after all they have been selling on yahoo for years, and have a good feedback rating, and are experience in what to do. and they won't go overboard. after all yahoo makes the final decession on who's auction gets zapped !!!
10. we've heard the bad about the posse, let's now hear some good !!!
startrek/wolftrek
h.o.s.t.
posted on October 19, 2000 09:40:52 PM new
Welll..... the self-proclaimed leader of the 'Posse', Superslurpee69, has stated that she is responsible for all that the 'Posse' does.
She has 5 negs in her feedback file for non-payment on auctions. If she were on ebaY, she would be NARU for excessive non-payment.
This person knows what is good for us? Not for me!
posted on October 19, 2000 10:48:11 PM new
Thanks Toyranch, will be working but will still try to have a good time.
"The possee knows what is good for us..."
Umm, I think I would rather have the option of deciding for myself what is good for me rather than having an unknown entity make those decisions for me. After all, I am old enough to be called an adult now (yeah, I've been called worse).
You think highly of the possee because you know some of them. (By the way, a feedback of one is all that's required to get into the possee - so much for the glowing feedback theory). They may be all that you say they are, but no one knows except those privileged few.
In this country, one of the tenets in our justice system is that the accused has the right to face their accusers. In my opinion, Yahoo users should also have that right to some degree.
You say "they've made mistakes". Whose livlihood did they ruin with those mistakes? Had the mistakes been made on your auctions, I think you would feel differently, but maybe not.
Again, I don't think Yahoo makes the final decision, I think this is just Yahoo PR. If Yahoo is lazy enough to institute the NW program, they certainly aren't going to be viligant about being sure the complaints are justified. I believe no investigation is done, or only minimal effort is made, with Yahoo relying almost entirely on the Possee's reports.
Sorry, I can't oblige you with your request, I just can't think of anything good to say. However, I do believe the Possee is well-intentioned, but people with good intentions have wreaked a lot of havoc on this world.
posted on October 19, 2000 11:06:34 PM new
As I said in my first post about this matter: It makes me sick.
For awhile I did buy into the idea of, "selfless people doing good for the community". Heck, I'd actually LIKE to believe that is true. Yahoo would be damn near heaven if that were true.
However, with each post from CharlieOne here and each post from the group 'leader' elsewhere it becomes more and more clear that this group is really about power.
With each, "I have a feeling you won't get it anyway" or "Maybe you are among those hurting us all with your spam, etc." (not to mention the threats from the leader of going underground so they wouldn't have to worry about, ironically, rules of conduct) it becomes more and more clear who the people of the Posse are really like. Nasty, vindictive, and totally unable to answer the simplest of questions without anger.
Those are NOT the kind of people who I want judging my auctions. If the leader and the spokesperson can't handle themselves on a public chat board, can you imagine what their hidden chat board is like?
I am not in the Posse, but I will defend them. They are all very experianced sellers. These witch hunting crusaders trying to stop the NW, are worst then these fine persons could ever be.
I know all of the Posse members, and they work very hard. Much harder than the nay sayers are. The 'witch hunters of 2000' need to help NW also. Like those of us who are sick of the spammers, ruining our ability to have our auctions viewed.
toyranch
Get Yahoo! to police their own site if you can, which I doubt. It would give these hard working persons some rest. Instead of trying to stop all of the spamming on Yahoo!, You spend your time, along with your spamming friend, trying to stop those who do stop it?
Maybe this is affecting your 'Million Auction March' total? Maybe you need all of those spam auctions to remain open, since you love to take credit for the number of auctions at Yahoo! If you were able to bring that many auctions to Yahoo!, you would be the CEO there. Numbers are more important to you, than what real sellers are having to deal with.
Maybe you, and your spamming buddy, need to start your own auction site. Open spam, no rules, no customer care, no abuse, no TOS. You could both be very happy there, and the rest of us could get on with selling, unhampered by those activities on Yahoo!. You know, Yahoo! may just grow more without your crusade to protect such activities from being known, by other sellers.
posted on October 19, 2000 11:49:10 PM newCharlieOne said, in a somewhat insulting manner to ToyRanch: Maybe you, and your spamming buddy, need to start your own auction site. Open spam, no rules, no customer care, no abuse, no TOS. You could both be very happy there, and the rest of us could get on with selling, unhampered by those activities on Yahoo!
Let me get this totally clear: when you say spamming buddy you mean the fellow who had 2 packages of diskettes for sale, in two different categories? Is that who you mean?
That's the mission of the posse? To harrass sellers who speak out against them? To call names and NW auctions like that?
It's looking worse and worse the more you post, Charlie. Maybe you should call in the relief pitcher? You're throwing wild pitches, here.
Who's in the on deck circle?
http://www.AIMILC.NE.JP
Inter Logic Ichinomiya, Japan
[ edited by WataruMurofushi on Oct 19, 2000 11:49 PM ]
posted on October 19, 2000 11:53:15 PM new
"Witch hunting crusaders"? Thanks CharlieOne, I was wrong. There is something good I can say about the Possee - witch hunting crusaders.
Course, I like witches and would protect them from the possee, so I guess that's not really a positive statement after all.
By the way, from your statement it looks as if you are saying that ToyRanch and his nefarious "buddy" are responsible for all the spamming and violations of TOS that occur on Yahoo. Now, it's none of my business but these moderators can sometimes spot an indirect insult. Wouldn't want you to get in any trouble.
Also Charlieone, you never did answer my question. Why is it okay for Possee members to take these actions against people, but isn't okay for other users to take these exact same actions against the Possee members? You don't have to be a Possee member to answer this, I would just like to know how you can rationalize this behavior.
Any Possee members that are around, I would welcome your answer as well, I wonder how this double standard is justified.
One other thought - you keep making accusations against those who oppose the secretive NW program. Since they are a secret group, what's to keep them from making an agreement that Possee members can spam, violate TOS six ways to Sunday and pretty much do anything they want without any other member reporting them.
Maybe they are the ones ruining Yahoo for you. But of course you know every one of them even though they are a tightly guarded secret, closed society and you're not a member.
Boy, that hurt my head when I fell off that turnip truck.
posted on October 20, 2000 05:13:39 AM new
CharlieOne~
You are confused about a lot of things.
I find it very interesting that so many people 'are not a member' of an organization whose membership is secret, and yet they are willing to defend them on a public board to the extent of making veiled personal attacks.
Very few are willing to admit membership in public.
If you are not a member then you have absolutely NO idea what is going on in the 'Posse' and you have NO idea whatsoever if they are everything they say they are...
I can understand wanting to support them publicly though... maybe that way they'll leave your spamming auctions alone... Maybe you have 1000's of auctions for the same item and are looking to protect them by defending the Posse. Frankly Charlie, I don't believe that, but it's basically along the lines of your accusation against me.
You keep trying to assign motives that are simply not there. I see something I believe is very very wrong. I am speaking out about it. Others see it as being very very wrong too. They are doing the same.
posted on October 20, 2000 05:49:47 AM new
My problem with this is 2 fold, and based on the U.S. Constitution.
1. If accused of a wrong doing, the defendant has the right to face their accuser
2. The defendant also has the right to make an explanation of their actions at trial
What the NW system currently is, is like Nazi German - you are guilty if accused, and you have no rights to explain or confront your accuser.
The major problem I see is the poor seller who has one of many, many items for which there is absolutely no category, and have done their best to place it in some logical category only to have NW decide that that is not the best place?
At worst sellers should receive a warning, AND should be able to explain their actions.
At best, the "posse" should only target flagrant, obvious spammers.
I worry about the power issue - Power corrupts, absolute power, corrupts absolutely!
I also wonder how any professional, as the time, or the reason (outside of being on a power kick) to endlessly go through offending auctions?
I agree that there are obvious offenders on Yahoo, but I feel it is Yahoo's job to police this not a private group, no matter how well intentioned said group might be.
"By the way, from your statement it looks as if you are saying that ToyRanch and his nefarious "buddy" are responsible for all the spamming and violations of TOS that occur on Yahoo."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That is NOT what I said. I said "Maybe you, and your spamming buddy, need to start your own auction site. Open spam, no rules, no customer care, no abuse, no TOS."
This is what they are complaing about, the NW. Without it they would have no complaints, understand?
"I can understand wanting to support them publicly though... maybe that way they'll leave your spamming auctions alone... Maybe you have 1000's of auctions for the same item and are looking to protect them by defending the Posse. Frankly Charlie, I don't believe that, but it's basically along the lines of your accusation against me."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Please read above. I did NOT accuse you of anything. You appear to want an unregulated site, as you appose the NW. Setting up an auction site with no rules to abide by, should make you happy.
"That's the mission of the posse? To harrass sellers who speak out against them? To call names and NW auctions like that?"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Where are you getting all of this from? Boy, are you confused. You sound like toyranch's buddy R---. By the way, why does the link under your name go to a download site:
http://www.AIMILC.NE.JP ??? Your use of words "slap them down", sure sounds like toyranch's spamming friend. Of course you couldn't be him, could you? He was thrown off of here by AW.
posted on October 20, 2000 02:36:02 PM newToyranch
I asked you this on another thread but you did not answer.
"If a seller gets NW'ed they get a warning letter giving them a day or 2 to close offending ads before they go to Yahoo review. If they leave them open it's their own fault for ignoring the warning. On the other hand, if NW was gone & it was left up to users to email direct the sellers ads would simply be deleted BOOM no warning or chances. I guess you'd like that better?"
------------
You keep complaining about 4 people forcing an ad to CC. If NW is done away with reporting will be as it was before- ONE person emailing Yahoo. How in the world do you see that as a better solution??? Leaving the NW program as it is gives the seller a chance to close early rather than sign on to the shock of having no listings.
I am talking about those who ARE in violation of TOS. I have read stories on different boards of innocents being unjustly NW'd who were Posse supporters but it only occured for a few days before stopping. I've seen no reports that such abuse is rampant or ongoing suggesting to me it was one multi ID'd person causing trouble. That person appeared to be making wild guesses about who might be a Posse member, I assume in retalition for having their own violations canceled. No one who was unjustly hit had ads canceled which tells me Yahoo does indeed review before deleting.
People on the boards complain about the anonynimity of the program and ask why someone couldn't simply give a friendly warning and point sellers to the rules before reporting them. In fact I have personally written many sellers in an attempt to help. Some responded with "Thanks for letting me know, I didn't realize that wasn't allowed" but an equal number responded "I'll worry about my ads, you worry about yours." Either way not ONE person EVER closed their violations. They were fully informed, even given links but elected not to do anything to correct the issues. That was their choice, I did not feel one bit bad about reporting them later and getting their spams canceled. Almost every one of them simply got new ID's and relisted the exact violations over and over. Leopards don't change their spots.
I've said over and over I could care less if the NW program is scraped, few if any offenders ever abide by the rules in spite of warnings. Reporting by email has always and will always be available. I have trouble understanding your expending all this time and energy on a crusade. I truly don't believe getting rid of the Posse or the NW program will have much effect. People will still report to Yahoo Abuse and violating ads will still get canceled so what will you have accomplished really? Except ensuring it only takes 1 person, instead of 4 to get a sellers ads canceled. That only sounds like a great idea to a Posse member IMHO.
[ edited by kasmoon on Oct 20, 2000 02:44 PM ]
