posted on April 22, 2001 05:20:40 AM new
Authorities are investigating a massive case of alleged
abuse by parents of as many as 60 children from the
same northwest Atlanta church.
Already, state social workers have removed 19 children
from the homes of three members of the House of
Prayer, 1194 Hollywood Road. Another church member
said Friday evening that social workers had indicated
they soon would take 11 of his children.
Atlanta police and social workers are looking into reports
that church members systematically held down their
children while beating them with belts and other objects -
allegedly under the direction of the pastor, the Rev.
Arthur Allen.
ATLANTA (AP) - Three more men have been arrested for allegedly
participating in the church-sanctioned beatings of children at the
non-denominational House of Prayer.
The use of religion to justify such abuse is unbelievable.
From the Bible....
Prov 13:24: "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes (diligently)."
Prov 19:18: "Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying."
Prov 22:15: "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him."
Prov 23:13: "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die."
Prov 23:14: "Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell (Shoel)."
Prov 29:15: "The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame."
BUT
Robert Ingersoll, a well known 19th century free-thinker, who wrote in 1891 about King Solomon:
"To me it has always been a matter of amazement why civilized people, living in the century of Darwin and Humboldt, should quote as authority the words of Solomon, a murderer, an ingrate, an idolater, and a polygamist -- a man so steeped and sodden in ignorance that he really believed he could be happy with seven hundred wives and three hundred concubines."
posted on April 22, 2001 09:30:35 AM new
While I don't believe any child should be 'beaten', I do believe in 'spanking' (a couple of light smacks on the tush) as a punishment when nothing else has worked.
It sounds to me that in the above mentioned case, this punishment went well beyond normal spanking. I feel it's appropriate for the 'state' to be sure the children aren't being abused.
I have long struggled with many issues that occur within the boundries of church beliefs and practices. Mixing the parental rights, children's rights and the right to practice religious beliefs all mixed in together.
posted on April 22, 2001 01:11:37 PM new
I have long been a strong advocate against corporal punishment. What does committing an act of violence really tell any child? It tells them that if they are big enough, strong enough, and violent enough against those who are too small and weak to defend themselves - then they get what they want!
And people wonder why we live in the world that we do.
posted on April 22, 2001 01:39:06 PM new
Before those of you who just read my previous post above think that I am a know-nothing Liberal, let me lay upon some facts. I used to volunteer my weekends working with and helping young emotionally damaged children. I did this for over a decade. I developed a program for parents to help them to regain control of their out of control kids: I held classes and even went into the homes to help. But what it boiled down to was not that the children were really bad or unruly, it's that the parents should not have been allowed to breed. Those parents, when faced with my solution, decided that it was just too much energy to expend to solve the problem and then they stuck their heads back into the sand. Parents are the problem in most cases, not the children.
And what was my program about? It was very simple. It is based upon the fact that children crave routine for security. When a child feels secure, that the parent is in charge and is taking care of them, then they behave!
How it works is that the parent or parents must follow a seven-day a week schedule, doing the exact same things at the exact same time per day. For instance, a parent must get up at the exact same time each day, prepare breakfast and the school lunches or snacks, wakes the kids up at the exact same time everyday. They all eat at one place at a table at one time. Then each kid goes to school at their time. Then, in the afternoon, come home, time for play, then homework, then dinner at the same time every day, then evening of entertainment, then bedtime at the same time, seven days a week.
Simple as that.
You'd think.
The parents would first argue that because it was the weekend, Friday and Saturday, the kids get to stay up later. I explained to them that this would not work: that the kids had to be able to depend upon a routine as unbroken as possible. Then, the thought of them getting up everyday and running a dependable routine was just too much effort! It is the parents who need to be trained!
For those parents who did try out my system discovered that their kids calmed down and behaved within a week. Yes, the kids first fought like mad dogs to be put into a routine: after all, who was the boss around here? I suggested to parents that instead of spanking their children to get to bed, that they simply make the child have the light turned off at that time and let the kid fight it out in the dark. Within a couple of days, the kids went right to sleep after lights-out. For those families that used my simple suggestion and method, their lives were all drastically improved. And they no longer had to perform violence their kids. Their kids behaved during the day, were happier, the kids did what they were told without being yelled at.
I also have other more advanced techniques that work as well. Summed up, there is no reason that any parent ever needs to put a hand, belt, or stick to a child to get them to behave. When you need to spank that child, you are admitting that YOU have failed, not the kid! Violence is the resort of the incompetent!
posted on April 22, 2001 02:19:13 PM new
Borillar - I agree with most of what you just stated. Spanking is so often the lazy parents way of discipline, it's much quicker and easier to just smack the kid than to sit down and discuss the misbehavior.
That being said I do think there is a time period in a childs life - when they are big enough to get in trouble but not old enough to understand a "talking to" - when a (rare) smack on the bottom might be the only way to get the point across.
With my own kids spanking has never been used to discipline, just a word or "the look" is enough, and they are very well behaved and respectful (most of the time ). OTOH I have a couple of nephews who are routinely spanked and yelled at and they are two of the worst behaved kids I've ever known.
[ edited by tootsiepop on Apr 22, 2001 02:20 PM ]
posted on April 22, 2001 04:18:43 PM newTrue Story A young girl under 14 yrs steals a car wrecks a car and gets 2pts on a license that she does not have. Oh! and she makes the news and thinks it's great!
Spare the Rod or Go to the Slammer? What lesson has this child learned?
posted on April 22, 2001 04:47:07 PM new
There is absolutely no excuse to spank a child. Borillar is 100% right and every parent should read every word that he has written. Punishment simply reinforces rebellion, revenge and resentment. It humiliates the child and this is not dignified or respectful.
Children who are spanked learn that it is acceptable for the strong to use
force aganinst the weak. And as a relult, they are more likely to become agressive
themselves.
Spanking is terrifying to a little kid...However well-intentioned, a spank on the "tush" as someone has described it here, registers as the shattering of the whole deal between parent and child. Young children are left with fear, shame, rage, hostility, self-destructiveness and betrayal that they can't yet resolve or manage.
Those people who are using religion as an
excuse to beat their children are monsters
and they are just creating more monstrers.
posted on April 22, 2001 05:28:16 PM new
There is more to this story...I saw it when it first broke a few weeks ago. The kids were beaten (not spanked - they were beaten) at the front of the church. By the altar. Hallelujah. And there was some question of the extremely early marriages taking place - girls as young as 14 being married off to men within the church. They were crossing state lines into Arkansas (I think it was Arkansas) to do this, because it's not legal to marry a child that young in Georgia.
This fruity pastor was on some radio call in show a few days after the story first broke. I say we put him up at the front of the church and beat the hell outta him. And his sorry followers too.
Child abuse in the name of religion - a new twist for the sickos. Great.
Have I spanked my kids? On occasion. It isn't the first line of defense for discipline, but there have been times it was the last.
posted on April 22, 2001 06:21:17 PM newMaddienicks - Thanks for the link. That pastor is a real sicko. I hope those poor kids aren't sent back to their "loving" parents anytime soon. Make that ever.
The judge was right. But this is not just a cult...this is a dangerous cult. What a horrible situation. I used to think that "faith" was just a harmless fantasy but now, it scares the hell out of me.
posted on April 22, 2001 07:01:57 PM newIn court, Allen angrily denied the allegations but said he had approved marriages for girls to prevent "potential whores."
I feel very bad for these people.
[ edited by jameSOBlivion on Apr 22, 2001 07:05 PM ]
posted on April 22, 2001 07:54:01 PM new
Physically punishing disobedient children is still widespread throughout Australia.
Doctors and child specialists are being urged to promote "good discipline".
Children thrive when adults take an interest in what they do and praise their good behaviour.
"The British Medical Journal" reports that frequent reprimands, inconsistent responses to undesired behaviour and absence of routines will inevitably lead to anti-social behaviour.
Negative parenting styles are likely to be passed from generation to generation. Most negative characteristics are learnt in childhood from parents. Parents must catch"the child being good" and then praise the child. Children learn best from what they see and then model their own behaviour on that of their parents.
Children mimic their words, actions, attitudes and appearances. Often they represent a mirror image of what happens at home.
Parents should give this careful consideration. "What you sow, so will you reap."
posted on April 23, 2001 12:54:09 AM new
This man would have to be mentaly deranged, wouldn't he, here we have a clear case of not just any old church group, but a rather nasty sect/cult. These people have to be stopped, and the leader who calls himself a pastor and tends to think of himself as God, needs to be put away for a very long time.
His comments saying "You can't do anything in that church I don't agree with, because I am the pastor.". This is a very telling comment, the man thinks he is beyond the law and the parents of these poor little beaten children obviously agree with him because they seem to be behind him 100% of the way.
I sincerely hope that the children that have been taken into foster care are not given back to this sick, depraved mob of wackos'.
Let them have have a wonderful life with people who will care for them and not treat them like they are worse than the scum of the earth. These little children did not ask to be born into such a sick disgusting community.
posted on April 24, 2001 08:45:25 AM new
I am reading all of this, and I agree that spanking is not the answer to discipling a child. I do admit that I spanked when my children were young. Not often but I spanked. Now I realize that my children were relatively well-behaved for an entirely different reason.
I talked to them. All the time. About everything. They talked and I talked. It wasn't one sided.
Also, there were consequenses for misbehavior, and I am not talking about spanking. You stayed out too late? You didn't get to go out next time. Not forever (which is unreasonable) but just the next time. You gave me a hard time in the store- we left. Immediately. And for the rest of the day, no matter what you wanted, that item was one of the things I had planned on getting, but didn't. I had six children, one right after the other. By the time the oldest was 4 I never had problems in a store. The older ones warned the younger ones. Every misbehavior had a logical consequence.
It wasn't the occasional spanking, which I realize now was mainly my exasperation or lack of patience. It was talking and having consequences that helped me raise the tribe.
Now with my grandchildren I do the same. And their visits are a delight. I keep them for days at a time, just to give my children a break, but never do I regret it. Try it, you will like it.
[ edited by curlectables on Apr 24, 2001 08:50 AM ]
Actually, Jehova's Witness is called a cult by most mainstream Christian denominations because they disagree on a fundemental point of theology so it's easier to just write them off as a cult.
). OTOH I have a couple of nephews who are routinely spanked and yelled at and they are two of the worst behaved kids I've ever known. 
