posted on April 24, 2001 04:25:17 PM new
You got a problem with hugging an Australian. I promise we usually don't bite unless provoked.
Back on topic.
You may not see this as a sect or a cult group, but from my side of the fence that is exactly what it looks like.
A friend of mine has lost her twin daughters to a group such as this. It started out with the girls going with 'friend' from school to a youth group. The girls went to this youth group for a few weeks and gradually started to get pulled deeper and deeper into the pit. The parents tried everthing to get those girls back home again, but to no avail.
The leader of this "group" seemed on the surface to be a nice person, but he was the one to push the girls to take out an order of abuse against their parents. My friends had done nothing wrong, they loved their children. They only wanted what was best for them, the abuse order came about after the girls wanted to come and take all of their clothes and other belongings from the house. The girls' thought they could just come in and take everything, and the parents thought differently, so the police were called and even though they obviously did not like doing it, they had to order that the girls be allowed to take their clothes.
The leader of this 'group' not only pushed the girls to cut themselves off from their family, but he also sanctioned that these 14 year old girls live and marry (not legally) two brothers of the ages 28 and 32, both long term church members. Of course that was behind closed doors, in public these young girls were supposed to be living with a very religious strict family.
The girls are now 18 and one has tried to leave on a couple of occassions, but the pull of her twin is stronger than the love of her parents.
So I would not ever say that a socially acceptable organized reliegion is just a Cult with more members. One of the mainstream religions may try to convert you but they usually do not beat you or pull young kids' away from loving families. In fact most organized religions would try to council any family with problems, they certainly do not usually push kids away from their parents, or for that matter encourage parents to beat there children.
posted on April 24, 2001 06:20:46 PM new
I believe the primary difference between a cult and a religion is that one wants to prevent you from leaving and the other hopes you will stay.
Deuteronomy 30:19
This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life,
Joshua 24:15
But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."
1 Kings 18:21
Elijah went before the people and said, "How long will you waver between two opinions? If the LORD is God, follow him; but if Baal is God, follow him." But the people said nothing.
Luke 9:23
Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.
The God of the Bible is consistantly a God who offers a choice.
[ edited by jt on Apr 24, 2001 06:27 PM ]
posted on April 24, 2001 08:42:08 PM new
Well, jt, I'm a 32nd degree Scottish Rite Freemason and I get accused of being in a cult all the time, even though no one would ever dream of disrespecting my wish to leave if I wanted to. Worse, Freemasonry isn't even a religion of any sort, yet we get accused of that also. I like your definition though: makes sense. I just wish others would see that as well.
edited for syntax
[ edited by Borillar on Apr 24, 2001 08:42 PM ]
posted on April 25, 2001 07:35:30 AM new
That's interesting Borillar. I am very perplexed about Masons. I have read some of the material and I see where they profess not to be a religion and open to all religions. However, my grandfather, a former grandmaster, had a Masonic burial just before Christmas. It was a beautiful service. It was very comforting at the time.
Later, I had many questions about it. I did some research. I read the Mason sites, the anti-mason sites and also talked to some Masons both from his groups and outside. My neighbor is a DeMolay. All the Masons that I talked to (as well as the funeral service content) stated that the central focus was Jesus Christ. This grandfather's life did not reflect Christian values for sure. Some others in the group have every appearance of being devout Christians. In the writings, I found many observances that seemed in stark contrast with (the Christian) religion and yet the focus in the writings seems to be toward a "higher power" some even mentioning Jesus if I remember correctly. In any case, it was all very confusing and upsetting to me so I decided it best to walk away from the issue. I say all this to say...I understand your comment...and I have no opionion due to lack of clarity.
It is nice to agree with you one something. Thank you for your kind comment.
T.
~*~and under His Wings you may seek refuge
Psalm 91
posted on April 25, 2001 09:47:53 AM newjlpiece, your remark reminds me of the accusations that I hear about Freemasons being in charge of the world in a group called The Bavarian Illuminatti. My reply to this accusation is simply this: if any man wishes to become a Freemason and meets the minmimum qualifications, then no one is going to stop him from doing so. Therefore, an Illuminatti can be a Mason, a Plumber, an Elk, a Doctor, a Christian, etc. It doesn't matter what organizations that they belong to - the Illuminatti (if they exist) are simply the Illuminatti.
*edited to add for jlpiece*
Here, read the connection between Alister Crowley and Fremasonry - it's not what you would think:
"In 1900, Crowley claimed in his Confessions... to have been initiated as a 33° mason in the Antient and Accepted Rite of Masonry (A&AR)
That is not mainstream Freemasonry, jlpiece, which are either Free & Accepted Masons (F&AM) or Ancient Free & Accepted Masons (AF&AM), just a difference in title, but is in no way related to the Mexican version of Freemasonry.
jlpiece, there are a lot of look-alike organizations that pretend to be Masonry, but are not. Freemasonry has pretty high standards about who they will allow in and who they won't. And the 33rd degree is not something that you earn, but is bestowed upon you for great service to your community, your coutry, and Freemasonry -- kinda like a Nobel Prize.
Once again, jlpiece, I suggest that your comments in your posts be more researchered before you place your facts before us.
jt: In order to understand it, you have to first realize what the whole point and purpose of being a Mason is. It is an organization of Men who enjoy the fellowship of other men of good character. If Masonry strives to do anything, it tries to encourage its members to be more moral and to seek and get closer to the Supreme Being of their faith.
Masonry does not try to address any particular religion or faith, not Jesus Christ nor Bhudda nor Baal. Hindus are welcome as well as Jews, Muslims, Pagans, and Christians. That is because Masonry, while not a religion, is religious in nature through its extensive use of symbolism and allegory obtained from the Bible. The purpose of this religious connection is to guide Masons to build up their moral character - a worthwhile endevour.
posted on April 25, 2001 09:53:14 AM new
"Christians, believing in the literal interpretation of the Bible, partake in communion or Eucharist in which the priest through his authority from Christ transforms the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ."
Baptist (Christians) believe it is symbolic and not actual but it's not something that is a stumbling block to me either way.
This creeps me out KRS. I might read it. I might not.
T
I was typing when you were B, sorry. Not ignoring you...but this is quite deep and family calls. Very sorry.
[ edited by jt on Apr 25, 2001 09:57 AM ]
posted on April 25, 2001 10:06:56 AM new
Albert Pike was not only a freemason, but one of its most accomplished authors. I have researched freemasonry more than you could ever understand. I know it's roots, and they aren't what you think...
posted on April 25, 2001 10:08:20 AM new
Umm, KRS, the Egyptian Book of the Dead has no connection to Freemasonry directly. As it may have influenced the rites of the Jews who were slaves at the time of Pharoah they may have incorporated some of it. This then could have been passed onto Christianity, but that is how Freemasonry would have any connection with it.
posted on April 25, 2001 10:12:27 AM new
What temperature does frozen water begin to flow into water. The melting point. The point at which those living in darkness begin to see the light.
posted on April 25, 2001 10:14:48 AM new
Just as Masonry wa unvailed to you a little at a time as you progressed through the degrees, what makes you think you don't still have much to learn?
posted on April 25, 2001 10:18:19 AM newjlpiece, this is the last one that I'll answer of your remarks on this subject. Your remarks are not researched, as I doubt that you have ever read Albert Pike's Morals and Dogma. Here's your last bit of info:
Q. Did Albert Pike really say that all Masons were secret followers of Lucifer?
No. In many anti-Masonic books you'll see what is supposed to be a quotation from Pike, saying that all Masons of the " Higher Degrees " are secret worshipers of Lucifer or that we regard Lucifer as god. The historical fact is that those words were written in 1894, three years AFTER Pike's death.
They were written by a notorious atheist and pornographer named Gabriel Jogand-Pages, but better known by his pen name, Leo Taxil. Taxil was engaged in an elaborate hoax to discredit both Freemasonry and the Church of Rome, and made up the Pike quotation out of thin air. He then " discovered " the letters, and revealed them to the world. He was highly praised by the religious authorities -- showered with honors and listed as a defender of the faith for having revealed the " true evil purpose of Masonry."
Then, just as he was being acclaimed all over Europe for his " religious zeal, " he publicly announced the hoax, making everyone look like fools. The scandal broke in 1897, but the supposed "Pike letter" had already been published by a man named Abel Clarin de la Rive, who took Taxil's hoax at face value.
Rive's book, 'La Femme et l'Enfant dans la Franc-Maconnerie Universelle,' (Woman and Child in Universal Freemasonry) was quoted by Edith Starr Miller in 1933, in her book, Occult Theocracy. She translated the "quotation" into English.
Since that time, several writers of anti-Masonic books have simply repeated the "quotation" without checking on its source or authenticity. Taxil's public confession and Rive's subsequent public retraction of his book notwithstanding, it continues to shadow the name of Pike, who was, to his death, a sincere and devoted Trinitarian Christian.
posted on April 25, 2001 10:34:53 AM new
I am simply reminded of why I decided to avoid further investigation and realize that it is something I want to avoid all together. Sorry I even got into it at all.
*******
So, I was thinking even before this came up (so un-relate my comment if you will), the other primary difference in a cult in a religion is that one seeks to be powerful and the other points to God as the all powerful.
One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: "`Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. Matt 22
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,
but only the Father. Matt 24:36
posted on April 25, 2001 10:55:55 AM new
In chapter III of Pike's Morals and Dogma He states, "Masonry like all the religions , all the mysteries, Hermeticism and Alchemy, conceals its secrets from all except the Adepts and Sages, or the Elect, and uses false explanations and misinterpretations of its symbols to mislead those who deserve only to be mislead: to conceal the Truth, which it calls light, from them, and to draw them away from it. Truth is not for those who are unworhty or unable to receive it, or would pervert it.
Nice guy, by the way that's on pages 104-105 in case you have the book at hand as I do. Allow me to go deeper still (but not too deep as this is not the place.)
On page 839 in chapter XXXII Sublime Prince Of The Royal Secret (Hey, that's you! ) Anyway, Pike says in the opening lines of YOUR degree "The occult Science of the Ancient Magi was concealed under the shadows of the Ancient Mysteries: it was imperfectly revealed or rather disfigured by the Gnostics: it is guessed at under the obscurities that cover the pretended crimes of the Templars; and it is found enveloped in enigmas that seem impenetratable, in the Rites of the Highest Masonry.
I guess I could go deeper still into Manly Hall, or dust off a copy of one of Mackey's great works, but I need a shower, and it's time to go to work, so I'll give you about 8 hours to come up with something, and I'll check back in with you around, say midnight? Good, then it's a date. I'm very patient, and I will walk you through these learning experiences with measured care and righteous revelation.
posted on April 25, 2001 10:59:47 AM new
There you go, jt, you hit the nail right on the head! "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Matt 24:36"
This is the very passage that I like to point out to people knocking on my door trying to tell me when the Second Comming is about to happen. These people, who appearently have nothing better to do all day long than to try to figurie out when its going to happen, seem totally oblivious of this one, very important passage.
Perhaps then, to amend what a cult might also consist of, is any group that pretends to to have the "inside word" on when Jesus is going to be back on earth.
posted on April 25, 2001 11:25:45 AM new
That's interesting. I never even wondered
about the time or probability of a second
coming.
Borillar,
Yesterday, you said
"A socially acceptable Organized Religion is just a Cult with more members."
My question is how would you distinguish a
dangerous cult from the normal organizied
religious cult?
Of course, I know very little about religion
but it would seem to me that it would be very
easy for a "dangerous" cult to evolve from
an organized religious cult...just as it has
happened in Atlanta.
posted on April 25, 2001 11:55:21 AM new"who appearently have nothing better to do all day long than to try to figurie out when its going to happen, seem totally oblivious of this one, very important passage".
I'm sure that you'd think again about this if you would only make a careful study of the train schedules.
posted on April 25, 2001 12:57:09 PM new
"Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"
) Anyway, Pike says in the opening lines of YOUR degree "The occult Science of the Ancient Magi was concealed under the shadows of the Ancient Mysteries: it was imperfectly revealed or rather disfigured by the Gnostics: it is guessed at under the obscurities that cover the pretended crimes of the Templars; and it is found enveloped in enigmas that seem impenetratable, in the Rites of the Highest Masonry.
