jamesoblivion
|
posted on June 20, 2001 08:45:30 PM
Well, people are weird. If you know someone weird, what do you think you should do about it? There's this guy who owns a house across the street from my parents. He is weird, to put it mildly. He doesn't live there, but he comes by to maintain it. Waters the lawn at 1 AM. There is something very, very creepy about him. Apparently when we first moved in his mom lived there but she kind of faded away over the years. The joke is that there is a Norman Bates situation going on, that mom is still up there - dead. The house looks 'haunted' for lack of a better word, and the thory is that one day it's going to turn out that he's a psycho killer and we're all going to be on TV going "gee, he did seem a little strange...".
Point is, people are strange. What do you think the people on my parents block should do? This man hasn't done anything and it will only make sense in retrospect. I'm sure there were warning signals about this woman, but what should anyone have done? Interprtered the signals? Who and how?
|
bobbi355
|
posted on June 20, 2001 08:49:21 PM
Postpartum depression left untreated can turn into postpartum psychosis which can be permanent if no medical attention is sought.
[ edited by bobbi355 on Jun 20, 2001 08:51 PM ]
|
bobbi355
|
posted on June 20, 2001 08:55:44 PM
Exactly JamesO. You can't just butt into other people's business because in your mind they act "weird". You can't know what is going on behind closed doors. If this woman had severe postpartum depression, she probably didn't even go out of her house much anyway. But you'd think her husband would have called a doctor or somebody to help her.
|
krs
|
posted on June 20, 2001 09:09:04 PM
1 a.m. is a good time to water a lawn. Maybe he's a gardner?
|
jamesoblivion
|
posted on June 20, 2001 09:15:29 PM
You have to see him and that house. He's Herman Munster scary.
|
krs
|
posted on June 20, 2001 09:19:19 PM
Now see here, James! That's not fair. Herman Munster was a very gentle being. Never hurt a soul.
[ edited by krs on Jun 20, 2001 09:21 PM ]
|
jamesoblivion
|
posted on June 20, 2001 09:21:47 PM
You know, you're right. I'll tell my mom that she should invite him in for tea and crumpets next time he comes around.
|
krs
|
posted on June 20, 2001 09:31:23 PM
Are tea and crumpets her usual fare for invited guests at 1 a.m.? That's odd.
|
spazmodeus
|
posted on June 20, 2001 09:33:16 PM
So then you DO equate the death penalty to murder, Spaz?
Sorry, try again. There was nothing in my post from which you could logically extrapolate that conclusion. Putting someone to death as punishment for a hideous crime and murder are separate concepts, in my opinion.
|
krs
|
posted on June 20, 2001 10:03:25 PM
Oh I see. You have a finer rationalization for killing than I. How very convenient. To me killing is killing, but what do I know?
|
MrsSantaClaus
|
posted on June 20, 2001 10:33:11 PM
I was watching the news reports of this on tv today at work and all I could think about was what were the other children thinking as they heard their mother drowning their brothers and sister one by one? What kind of terror must they have endured? It is too much to even think about ...
God rest their souls, poor babies 
At least now they are where she can never hurt them again ...
|
jlpiece
|
posted on June 20, 2001 11:19:06 PM
This lady, a registered democrat, said she felt hopeless after Bush was elected. She had hoped for a Gore victory so she could legally have her children aborted. She said that were it not for those pesky Republicans making such a fuss about late term abortions, she would not have had to do it this way.
I feel her pain. Probation and a fine, I hope. Maybe some community service.
|
Zazzie
|
posted on June 20, 2001 11:53:31 PM
--another witty piece of.....
edited cause I can
[ edited by Zazzie on Jun 21, 2001 09:03 AM ]
|
jamesoblivion
|
posted on June 21, 2001 12:02:04 AM
I'll just pretend that jlpiece found the Biblical source that abortion is murder but chose not to post it in order not to embaress me.
After all he said "I guess I could go on, and quote scripture, but the non-liberal scripture would be so much that it would crash AW servers, and I have auctions up right now, so I'll just ask that since I have clearly shown why Jesus was NOT a liberal, perhaps somebody could tell me why what I have pointed out is innacurate. You all asked for it, now you got it. You will lose this argument, but then again, winning isn't everything..." with such confidence.
http://www.auctionwatch.com/mesg/read.html?num=28&thread=96151&id=96944
|
kraftdinner
|
posted on June 21, 2001 12:19:25 AM
Gee jlp...you're usually pretty funny, but your analogy seems kind of heartless tonite.
|
ypayretail
|
posted on June 21, 2001 12:56:48 AM
"Another question to ask---is why did no one in her life see that she was having major problems?? "
On today's news it showed where all new of her problems. What the hell was the husband thinking leaving a woman with severe post partum home with 5 kids.
Normal - sane - women have a hard time with 5 - under 7 - how could they think she could handle it.
This woman had major depression issues. She tried to kill herself several years ago. She told all that she was depressed. She was diagnosed with major post partum and her hubby and neighbors all knew.
This is not a case of - they couldn't afford daycare so mom had to stay home. If you saw the home on the news it was a very upscale neighborhood.
The week before she told neighbors and friends at a b-day party that she was so depressed she didn't know what to do.
HELLO PEOPLE -
LISTEN - LISTEN - LISTEN -
Just as kids that get bullied and tell and tell and no one does anything - they snap and so did she.
She is nothing like the evil Susan Smith. This is a very sick woman who screamed for help and everyone left her with innocent children - knowing she couldn't handle them.
Her mental illness directly related to caring for kids and she went crazy - everyone was warned for years - but let her watch the kids - and - continue to give birth to more.
Susan Smith is a cold, calculated killer - this does not compare.
I think the doctors and hubby and friends are all to accept blame here. To leave innocent children with a person who seriously may harm them is abuse.
The act is horrendous. But for someone to snap that bad - has to also be horrible for her. Unbelievable that 5 innocent children paid the price for a system and personal support (family, hubby, friends) failed.
People have got to start listening to people when they talk to you. If they are majorily depressed etc. - listen up - get help.
After hearing her history - it is no suprise that this happened.
|
hcross
|
posted on June 21, 2001 01:28:31 AM
She was not "cold and calculating"? Maybe the killing of the first child was a rash act, but to go on and kill 4 more? She should have done the world a favor and killed herself instead of those poor babies.
|
gravid
|
posted on June 21, 2001 02:21:07 AM
Well what are you going to do? Most people have to work for a living so you can't stay home and supervise her yourself.
If she is being seen by a doctor and medicated it is pretty much up to him to be the one to say she is a risk to herself or others - frnkly that will not happen unless they are that way every day consistantly.
I don't know how it is in other states but here in Michigan they have pretty much done away with long term residential facilities for the mentally ill. They tore the local hospital down and sold the land for millions to build businesses. Now you see the mentally ill wandering around on the streets and in small group homes where they often walk away and are hurt on the streets.
We just had a case where the older parents of a mentally ill man petitioned the courts because the agency that was helping their son
insisted on setting him up in an apartment and they said he was unwashed and obviously off his medication when they tried to visit.
They insisted he was incapable of caring for himself but the agency said he could. About a month later they found him dead in bed filthy and malnorished and off his meds that prevented siezures also. Gee they were right.
Still it was cost effective. They don't have to look at another 40 or 50 years of paying his way..
|
donny
|
posted on June 21, 2001 02:43:41 AM
"She should have done the world a favor and killed herself instead of those poor babies."
We can't choose which illnesses will befall us, and we can't choose how an illness manifests itself.
|
sadie999
|
posted on June 21, 2001 03:54:10 AM
I can't begin to tell you how much anger at the medical establishment this story brought up in me!
Just short of a decade ago, a very smart, cheerful, well-educated, well-employed woman friend of mine killed herself as the result of post partum depression. I won't write about all the details in case by some weird coincidence someone who knew her frequents this board.
She didn't kill her baby. She killed herself in an extremely well-planned violent way... very shortly after the pathetic excuses for experts had released her from the hospital her husband checked her into after he suspected she might do something like this.
After the horrible shock wore off, my rage at the medical establishment set in. These a**holes have been dealing with this for hundreds of years, and yet, they still minimize women's symptoms - and in the case above, even when her husband took them seriously.
This new case is nothing like Susan Smith. SS thought her "boyfriend" would come back to her if she just didn't have kids. SS lied to police. This women did nothing like this.
Personally, I hope this woman doesn't do a single day in jail.
What I do hope is that the last doctor to examine her and release her will be charged with gross negligence for allowing such a danger to be near children. I hope the whole da**ed medical community is indicted. This is just another case of women's health issues being second class in terms of research and knowlege. We allow doctors treat us this way, then the whole community throws up its collective hands in shock, exclaiming, "How could this happen?"
Until you've seen a loving husband sadly say that his wife was never the same woman after she had the baby... Until a friend of yours that was never even a moody type kills herself violently, you'll only be using your own experience to judge this. I'm using mine.
And in my opinion, every obgyn that lets a woman in this mental state back near her kids, or doesn't give her treatment is a criminal. No one will ever convince me otherwise.
|
december3
|
posted on June 21, 2001 04:40:34 AM
I had a friend who suffered from post partum depression. She was one of the lucky ones. Her parents, her husband and her doctor cared enough to help her. The baby stayed with her folks while she got treatment, her doctor insisted she was not to be left alone with the baby. She recovered, but she was told that having another child could bring it on again. Most of these women do realize they need help, but sometimes no one listens.
|
gravid
|
posted on June 21, 2001 05:02:31 AM
A lot of times they don't listen because they are conditioned to TELL women not listen to them. I can't tell you how many times I have had to intervene for my wife with doctors merchants and employers. I resent it. There is not real reason for it.
[ edited by gravid on Jun 21, 2001 05:24 AM ]
|
uaru
|
posted on June 21, 2001 05:10:31 AM
In my mind with the information that is available I have no doubt this is a very sick woman. What happens when/if she is successfully treated and realizes what she has done?
I see nothing but victims and helpless people and we need to have a villain in this tragedy. Is it possible for horrible crime not to have a clearly defined villain?
-----
edited spelling error
[ edited by uaru on Jun 21, 2001 06:06 AM ]
|
codasaurus
|
posted on June 21, 2001 05:11:36 AM
I've read only the first post here. I'm not going to read the remainder for quite a while if ever because the title of the topic suggests that this conversation will be directed to this woman's punishment.
I hope folks at least take the time to reflect on the tragedy of such a horrific act before they start throwing in their two cents on the causes and the appropriate punishment.
|
gravid
|
posted on June 21, 2001 05:36:01 AM
Is it possible for horrible crime not to have a clearly defined villian?
Well if you really want to look at the uncontroled actions of a deranged person as a crime no - there has to be a villain.
The cops will probably tell you that because that is their whole job - villian hunting so they have to deliver one up.
The whole idea is that where someone does not have the capacity to know right and wrong or form intent then there is no crime. Only tragedy.
That is why if a 3 year old plays with matches and burns the house down there is no crime. They do not have the reasoning ability to understand the consequences of their actions or their relative rightness.
An adult might be responsible for having left the matches out.
A doctor might be responsible for leaving this woman where she could bring their house down also.
[ edited by gravid on Jun 21, 2001 05:38 AM ]
|
uaru
|
posted on June 21, 2001 06:04:21 AM
gravid
You made a good point, and I did use the wrong terms. I should have said tragedy instead of crime.
With the info available I don't see a clearly defined villain. I think when the tragedy is something other than an act of nature (hurricane, earthquake) a villain is required. If not the woman then her husband, if not her husband then her neighbors, if not her neighbors then the medical community, if not the medical community then the social services. I don't see our society accepting a tragedy of this nature without a villain.
|
bunnicula
|
posted on June 21, 2001 07:54:59 AM
From what has been released so far, this woman isn't on a par with Susan Smith, who killed her kids out of selfish desires for herself & constructed an elaborate story to cover up.
This woman is genuinely mentally ill and had been for years. I can't help thinking that she must have been throwing off increasing signals that her depression was becoming overwhelming. Was her husband blind? Didn't take it seriously enough? He's the one living in the house with her, seeing her day after day. It's something he'll spend the rest of his life wrestling with. And whether the mother goes to jail or into treatment, if/when she wakes to a full realization of what she has done her life will be a living hell.
|
krs
|
posted on June 21, 2001 08:56:30 AM
It's not always so easy to see. A person can seem fairly normal through the course of each day, even put on a 'happy face' for those close or for the world to see. It's often when the person is alone that depressions hit hardest, and it can come suddenly like a ton of bricks. At those times even the most irrational responses can seem to be completely valid mechanisms for escape.Depression can be as desparation.
Nevertheless, the husband had to be particularly innattentive in light of this woman's prior behaviors.
I lived for a while with a woman, a mother, who would just leave suddenly. Once her daughter and I even came home to find the vacuum cleaner sitting running in the middle of the living room. She never could explain why she did that. I think that this one is an extreme example of a pretty common syndrome.
|
Zazzie
|
posted on June 21, 2001 09:10:26 AM
http://www.twbookmark.com/books/14/0446527769/press_release.html
|
kraftdinner
|
posted on June 21, 2001 09:29:59 AM
Thanks for the link Zazzie! After reading it, I'm wondering if PPD happens to any mother, or only ones that have had multiple births, like this woman and Marie Osmond?
|
