Femme
|
posted on June 21, 2001 09:32:45 AM
It's natural to be outraged when the victims of a tragedy are children. Emotions run high.
But, forget for a moment that the victims were children.
The woman is mentally ill. Quite possibly pre-disposed to mental illness genetically, in which case, more likely to suffer from post-partum depression.
Should we now seek the death penalty for the mentally ill?
|
Zazzie
|
posted on June 21, 2001 09:33:54 AM
It can be the first baby or the 5th....but when you have other children it must be even more over-whelming.
What a heart breaking tragedy....
|
julesy
|
posted on June 21, 2001 09:39:05 AM
Well, the Governor of Texas says it's OK to execute mentally retarded folks...those who are mentally ill can't be too far behind.
|
Femme
|
posted on June 21, 2001 09:50:38 AM
You are absolutely right, KRS.
Fully functional and able to put on that face for the world to see.
The highs are high; the lows are low.
As to her husband being inattentive....
It has been my experience that someone with a healthy mind will never be able to grasp what is going on in the chemically unbalanced mind. Even with all of the information available today, the "snap out of it" mentality still exists.
|
jlpiece
|
posted on June 21, 2001 10:00:16 AM
"I'll just pretend that jlpiece found the Biblical source that abortion is murder but chose not to post it in order not to embaress me."-jamesoblivion
Nonsense James, I'd be glad to embarass you.
http://www.auctionwatch.com/mesg/read.html?num=28&thread=96151&id=96944
[ edited by jlpiece on Jun 21, 2001 10:00 AM ]
|
Zazzie
|
posted on June 21, 2001 10:06:22 AM
Put two Biblical scholars in a room and you get two totally different opinions
|
sadie999
|
posted on June 21, 2001 10:19:54 AM
The link from "I'll be glad to embarrass you," leads to Mathew 25:34 through 25:46. As I read this, it talks about helping people less fortunate than one's self and how when one doesn't do this it offends God. How this addresses abortion is beyond me, but I'd be happy to listen.
|
caravaggio
|
posted on June 21, 2001 10:23:08 AM
I have no idea why I am posting this here of all places, but here goes.
I have struggled with depression on and off for years. I am 23 and I would say that I have been chronically depressed since I was about 10. It pisses me off that people think that you can just snap out of it or that you should deal with it and get over it. I have heard that time and time again. I have missed so much school because of depression but this is not an excuse. My art history professor from fall semester, who I am still close to, belived that short of death there was no excuse for missing school. When I told her why I was missing so much, she said "Well depression is just anger turned in, you need to figure out why you are so angry". This was from a well educated woman who I respected a great deal. Even my husband doesn't fully understand why I get "down" so often. I am luckier than most. But I do have to work harder than most people I know. Some days it is a challenge just to get out of bed. The smallest thing can set me off, I can spend days in bed wanting to cry. I have taken SSRI's with very little to show. This drugs have horrible side affects for me. Mental illness is very real. It pisses me off to no end when a criminal can "get off" from a serious crime by claiming mental illness. What this woman did is horrible, but if she is truly sick she needs help not punishment.
____________________________
[email protected]
Caravaggio/confusedandsleepy are not my names at eBay.
|
spazmodeus
|
posted on June 21, 2001 10:56:39 AM
Boo hoo hoo. Post partum depression. Tell me, what form of depression do you think that 7 year old boy experienced as he desperately fought for air and life while his own mother shoved his head beneath the bathwater? What sort of despair do you think he felt when the last thing he ever saw was his mother killing him?
But this is so typical. The victims don't matter. They're dead, right? So let's focus on the rights of the killer to fair treatment, compassion and understanding. We must take good care of our family annihilators.
|
kraftdinner
|
posted on June 21, 2001 10:57:17 AM
It's nothing to be ashamed of caravaggio. You're very brave to tell us what you've been (going) through, and I'm sure everyone here has compassion for your situation, and understand it sure can't be easy for you.
I think depression can be as bad of an illness as cancer, but with depression, you get to stay alive while your head's dead.
This will be an interesting case that will split alot of people, but hopefully will bring on a better understanding of the different degrees of depressive illnesses.
spaz, I don't think people are forgetting the children, or are trying to "let her off the hook", but are trying to figure out how she could have done such a thing imo. For me, the actual killing is too difficult to think about.
[ edited by kraftdinner on Jun 21, 2001 11:01 AM ]
|
ypayretail
|
posted on June 21, 2001 10:58:22 AM
"Well what are you going to do? Most people have to work for a living so you can't stay home and supervise her yourself."
Gee, I don't know. They live in a 600K home - the word nanny comes to mind - or birth control.
|
ypayretail
|
posted on June 21, 2001 11:04:26 AM
"I see nothing but victims and helpless people and we need to have a villain in this tragedy. Is it possible for horrible crime not to have a clearly defined villain?"
There is a villain - the people who knew the potential was there but sat back and did nothing and gave her the kids to watch.
Come on -
I know because it is kids - the utter horror and sympathy is not there. But how about this - someone has attempted suicide several times. Would you leave them at home with loaded guns. When they did kill themselves - you would all be blaming the person who left them with the guns.
This is sicker to me - let's leave our kids with a woman - mother irregarless - who we know has a disease that makes her go crazy with kids. And let's leave her alone all day with 5 under the age of 7 - most 'sane' women would go crazy with 5 under 7.
This is like leaving your child with uncle Bob the child molester. But he is Uncle Bob and no way would he do it to my kid. Yet Uncle Bob does do it - and you as the parent are solely to blame.
There is no suprise here at all - her history dictated what would happen this week.
|
kraftdinner
|
posted on June 21, 2001 11:06:05 AM
Just a thought....maybe she gave them sleeping pills before she did it so they didn't struggle. I can't imagine it happening any other way.
|
Zazzie
|
posted on June 21, 2001 11:07:11 AM
Spaz---nobody has said there aren't any victims here--and it is a horrible tragedy--these young children died a horrible death.
But hopefully this will open some eyes that this is not just 'The Baby Blues' but a devastating condition that can have some devastating consequenses if not dealt with and women (and their families) will recognize it in themselves the dangers and seek immediate help.
Women's health issues (mental and physical) are so frequently ignored when only women suffer from them and men don't get Post-Partum Depression
|
spazmodeus
|
posted on June 21, 2001 11:07:33 AM
It's also possible that she killed the kids with full knowledge of what she was doing, and was canny enough to figure that her history of depression would make a fine excuse.
|
Zazzie
|
posted on June 21, 2001 11:12:42 AM
I guess we'll just have to wait and see what the Texas judicial system determines.
|
ypayretail
|
posted on June 21, 2001 11:16:29 AM
"You are absolutely right, KRS.
Fully functional and able to put on that face for the world to see"
Sadly in this case it doesn't appear to be that way.
She tried to kill herself two years ago and all her friends and family said they knew she suffered from post partum depression. She LAST WEEKEND told friends and family at a birthday party that she was depressed and didn't what she was going to do - she was at her wit's end.
I think depression is hidden a lot of the time. But here, from all accounts it appears as though she was screaming for help and no one heard her or responded.
Her hubby is saying they all knew she struggled with depression but did not know she would go this far. The hubby says the medicine hasn't been working and her father died a few months ago and HE noticed she was spiraling out of control. HE is saying this in a news conference. He knew she was out of control but still left the kids with her. Unbelievable - - - he is responsible if you ask me.
HELLO - read up on the diseases your family members have. Someone diagnosed with PP should not be around the kids - definitely not the responsible party.
Looks like PP was downplayed and this is the result.
BTW -
It can happen to anyone. My sister had it with both kids and she wanted them away from her within hours of their time when they came home. My mother went both times and took care of the babies for the first 6 weeks. After 2 months - she was a new person and you would have never known. Who knows what could have happened had she been left alone with the babies in the beginning.
BUT as parents we are solely respsonible for our childrens safety and well being. Irregarless of family status - if someone has a disease or illness that could hurt the kids - they should not be around them and certainly not responsible for their welfare.
|
bobbi355
|
posted on June 21, 2001 11:16:42 AM
Women's health issues (mental and physical) are so frequently ignored when only women suffer from them and men don't get Post-Partum Depression.
So very true.
|
tegan
|
posted on June 21, 2001 11:32:12 AM
Gravid...You are right every crime does not have a villian.
I live ten miles from the house "that has no windows facing the street" as the reporters put it. I found that very symbolic. We can't see into their life.
Is it possible that even her own husband didn't know how dangerous she was? I think it is not only possible it is more ofton the case than not.
Depression can make you do things that even you didn't think you were capable of. Once while out on a walk many years ago in the depth of depression found a bridge with my name on it. I didn't leave the house with the intention of doing myself harm but I did. Even I didn't know that I was capable of it.
Children are dead and we are all very angry...we want someone to pay and in Texas that usually means with their life. We need someone to blame , we need someone to punish...isn't that what justice is about?
I don't think so. This is one of those nasty gray issues that make me wish I were a child again. This is too adult an issue, it makes my head spin, my heart ache and leaves a heavy burden on my soul.
The husband in this case is not Satan..he is just your average man no better or worse than the rest of them. Do you really think he thought to himself just before he left the house "If I go out and leave her alone with the kids she will proably drowned them all...., ah what the hell I need a night out"
We have friends that work with this man believe me he is as shocked as we are.
I always believed we grieve more for what could have been when someone dies than what was. That's why the death of a child is so much harder to take, the potential lost is ofton to much to bear.
Now this family ,grandmothers, grandfathers aunts and uncles have this huge burden of grief times five to bear plus the added bonus of having their son,or brother blamed for the deaths. Is that justice?
None of the blaming and accusing will bring these children back nor will it go very far toward honoring their memory.
Sorry for the rant but typing and tears just seem to go together.
[ edited by tegan on Jun 21, 2001 11:35 AM ]
|
kraftdinner
|
posted on June 21, 2001 11:34:15 AM
What makes you doubtful spaz? The legal system or depression as a motive?
|
julesy
|
posted on June 21, 2001 11:37:52 AM
"Women's health issues (mental and physical) are so frequently ignored when only women suffer..."
Agreed. Plus, I think Post Partum is one of those conditions that is probably stigmatized.
|
Femme
|
posted on June 21, 2001 11:43:54 AM
It's also possible that she killed the kids with full knowledge of what she was doing, and was canny enough to figure that her history of depression would make a fine excuse.
And I thought I was cynical.
|
Femme
|
posted on June 21, 2001 11:52:07 AM
Stigmatized, yes.
It's all in our head, so to speak.
And heart attacks aren't the number one killer of women, either.
|
Hjw
|
posted on June 21, 2001 12:02:56 PM
Spazmodeous,
Your lack of compassion for this poor mentally ill mother is astounding. It should embarass you to have this thread titled
"I Hope She Gets the Death Penalty".
Nobody is overlooking the tragedy of the children's deaths or the grief of their father and family.
Helen
|
hepburn
|
posted on June 21, 2001 12:03:34 PM
"I killed my kids. They irritated me. I was just so very depressed, you know".
No, I don't know what clinical depression is. No, I haven't ever experienced it. No, I presume it is not a "fun" thing to have. So no, I can't imagine how a "depressed" person could hold 5 children down in a tub of water, as bubbles come up from their silent screaming and gazing into their eyes as they look up at Mommy's face. I hope she gets the death penalty too. And it should be by drowning. Maybe the executioner will be really depressed that day and take their time.
edited to add no, I have no pity nor compassion for her.
[ edited by hepburn on Jun 21, 2001 12:05 PM ]
|
krs
|
posted on June 21, 2001 12:09:49 PM
"The woman is mentally ill. Quite possibly pre-disposed to mental illness genetically"
From my entire life experience I have concluded that this is an unnecessary redundancy.
(forgive me, Femme  )
|
krs
|
posted on June 21, 2001 12:15:40 PM
Remember: death penalty = killing, killing equals murder, Death penalty = murder.
If A equals B and B equals C then A must equal C.
Eye for an eye, tooth for tooth.
|
spazmodeus
|
posted on June 21, 2001 12:35:54 PM
Your lack of compassion for this poor mentally ill mother is astounding.
And your myopia is appalling.
Just a thought....maybe she gave them sleeping pills before she did it so they didn't struggle. I can't imagine it happening any other way.
If so, that would indicate premeditation.
And speaking of premeditation, how convenient that her "psychosis" or whatever you want to call it struck exactly when all 5 kids were home and her husband was at work. What a well-timed psychosis. What an opportunistic psychosis.
It didn't strike when, say, the 7 year old was a at a friend's house, or when her husband had a couple of the kids out running errands with him, or even while her husband was upstairs sleeping. No, it came upon her when all five children were at home and vulnerable, with no other adult to protect them or stop her.
Odd too how she had the presence of mind to call her husband after the murders and say "You better come home" rather than before she murdered them. Heck, she even called the police afterwards, but not before.
You guys can bleed all you want for that "poor mentally ill mother." I'm not buying it.
Femme,
And I thought I was cynical.
Am I really being that cynical? Didn't Susan Smith tell the world an elaborate lie at first? Didn't Charles Stuart? Don't most murderers fabricate some kind of story to cover themselves?
|
krs
|
posted on June 21, 2001 12:39:44 PM
So much for a trial, who needs a jury. Get on with the killing, TV must be slow in the off season.
|
krs
|
posted on June 21, 2001 12:43:50 PM
Be the First to Know the Story Behind The Story!!
https://secure.palmcoastd.com/pcd/document?ikey=01229IIW1
|
