posted on June 21, 2001 02:43:35 PM new
She was on a cocktail including Haldol? And taking care of 5 kids????
Haldol is an antipsychotic med. This is not Valium or some minor tranquilizer. This was not a minor depression if she was being treated with antipsychotics.
posted on June 21, 2001 02:56:10 PM new
ypayretail,
I agree with most everything you wrote in your last post; however, I don't feel that the inaction of those around her exculpates her of the crime.
You're right that other people apparently ignored the threat. Maybe they ought to send the husband to the death chamber with her, for being so stupid/negligent as to have left five little kids alone with a potential murderer.
posted on June 21, 2001 03:04:01 PM new
Also makes you wonder why they are having more kids when she has this reaction and they already had four. I mean how many is enough when it is dangerous to have more. Maybe they belong to a religion that won't allow them to use birth control - who knows? People try to do the impossible to please their relatives and ministers. I learned a long time ago to say no but it is not an easy thing to learn.
posted on June 21, 2001 03:09:38 PM new
Perhaps my resentment comes from those in this thread who think I am "unreasonable" for wishing this person the death penalty because I refuse to agree with their own opinions and am not entitled to my own, which goes against what THEY think I should feel or understand. No, I don't understand PPS, but like spaz, I too am sick of society always finding an "out" for someone who does a horrific crime, under the guise of "mental illness". There are pills for waking up, going to sleep, bowel movements, eye care, bloodpressure, heart, muscle growth, hair loss, depression, hyperactivity. Excuses excuses excuses galore. She KILLED her children and not only is SHE responsible for having them and making them, so is her husband and all that knew of her mental illness. However, society didn't drown her kids. SHE did. So now she can pay up, slobbering and glassy-eyed with insanity all the way to the table where the IV's are. Want me to be the bad guy for having no pity and judging her for what she did? I can deal with it.
posted on June 21, 2001 03:27:10 PM new
The same as I do now, Helen. I might feel differently if she had ONE child and was diagnosed with PPS. But she had 5 children and was "spiraling down" during her "saner moments" of spreading her legs without birth control, religious beliefs or not. Her husband is just as guilty, too. He should join her. What he did is no different than leaving his 5 children in a cage with a tiger and expecting them to be safe when he returned.
posted on June 21, 2001 03:28:34 PM new
Hepburn---she'll be paying for their deaths with her every breath. I doubt that a minute will not go by without her thinking of them and the way she killed them.
If you want her to be punished in hell, life is what will do it to her.
posted on June 21, 2001 03:37:19 PM new
"I agree with most everything you wrote in your last post; however, I don't feel that the inaction of those around her exculpates her of the crime."
I agree. But I just feel we will continue to see stories such as this when parents make totally irresponsible decisions such as leaving 5 children in the care of a very psychotic individual - fully knowing that she is psychotic and spiraling out of control.
If it was my wish - I wish he would be prosecuted for child abuse and spend some time in jail as I feel he is an accesory to these crimes as he was the only sane parent responsible for these kids. He made the 'sane' choice to leave them with an insane woman. For that he should be held accountable.
As for her. She lives in a hell no one would want. She did not hide from the cops but stood there and accepted the arrest. She probably thinks her kids are better off out of this world and will take whatever punishment comes her way. She may have felt that death would take them to a better world and she helped them get there. She laid them out side by side on her bed and methodically (and sickly) killed them.
She needs serious help - but must be held accountable - in whatever method or socitey deems insane individuals to be held accountable - for her actions as they are despicable.
I won't applaud when she is put to sleep if that is what happens. I don't feel she is a 'normal' person and I cannot feel jubliated (sp).
The poster that said when she does, if she ever does, become sane - she will then be living in a real hell when she knows what she did. I don't think she will are if she dies - probably think she is going to be with her kids in their new place.
I don't think we are asking for compassion for this woman but understanding that our society needs to take precautions when people have serious problems. This is a prime example of a serious psychotic disorder being taken lightly. Why else would she be allowed to watch those children? The Dr.'s should have told the husband of the side effects and what happens when meds are not taken etc.
From the Dr's to the hubby etc. the whole situation needs review and people to look at their own lives and make sure they listen when people say they need help.
HOWEVER -
Nothing excuses the act of murdering 5 innocent little children. That is nothing short of disgusting and apalling behavior and does deserve punishment.
Unlike Susan Smith - of whom, I would like to take care of her myself. This woman did not lie etc. She went wacko and now must pay.
posted on June 21, 2001 03:37:59 PM new
That is probably true, zazzie. But "what if" she is deemed "mentally cured" after 20 years or so, and "gets a new life" outside the prison walls? What if she gets to smile, laugh, enjoy a particular meal or see a funny show while incarcerated? I don't want her to ever feel "good" again in her lifetime. Living, there is room for "forgetfulness". I don't want her to ever forget.
I am being very unreasonable right now and I know it. I am angry and disgusted and so very sad about those children and what they felt or saw as they died. Knowing I am being this way, it is time for me to back out of this thread until I cool off. Excuse me.
posted on June 21, 2001 04:33:17 PM new
Hepburn, you said:
"I can't have compassion or pity for something I haven't experienced or understand."
Fortunately, most other people can have compassion or pity for things they haven't experienced and don't understand. If we were limited in our compassion to only those things we had experienced ourselves, we could hardly be called compassionate at all. My own experience with tragedy has been very small, yet far larger than I'd have wished for. Still, most of us don't have to experience the full range of human tragedy to feel compassionate towards those whom some part of it falls upon.
To blame this woman for having more children is to completely ignore the fact of her illness. Part of it involves not being able to do the correct things, and/or not being able to stop doing incorrect things. If Christopher Reeve fell out of his wheelchair and lay there in the street, and a bus cruised down the road and squashed him, would we say - "Well, he should have gotten up and picked himself up out of the road!! That's what I would have done!! Why did he just lay there like that!!"
posted on June 21, 2001 05:18:34 PM new
I, too, in the normal way of things am sick & tired on insanity pleas to get people out of paying for their crimes. Because 9 times out of 10 there *is* no insanity, just a cop out. Same with prisoners suddenly finding religion while in prison & getting early parole "because they have changed."
BUT this case obviously falls under that rare 10th time, where the person *is* suffering a form of insanity. Look at the drugs she was on & what they are for.
Why in the world would the husband not have in-home help while he is at work? Knowing what can happen with his wife's mental stability why would he leave her alone with the kids?!?
As to why they kept having kids...that was one of my first thoughts as well. Really--5 kids in 7 years?!? (might have been the norm up through the 19th C. what with high death rates, but *today*?) Then I looked at the kid's names--all biblical. Gives a clue.
If they don't have this woman on suicide watch, they should. In her sane moments she'll be in her religion's purgatory.
posted on June 21, 2001 05:32:43 PM new
Golly group...calm yourselves. Just look at this for what it has become. Entertaining content for the RT. Been kinda dead around here...no?
posted on June 21, 2001 05:46:03 PM new
I just saw on the evening news the father speaking about "what happened". He said she called him at work and said he better come home. His words:
"Is it one of the kids?" and she said "yes. All of them". He then said into the microphone, "I had a sinking feeling then". Well duh. Obviously he knew what she was capable of.
posted on June 21, 2001 05:52:35 PM new
"Is it one of the kids?" and she said "yes. All of them". He then said into the microphone, "I had a sinking feeling then". Well duh. Obviously he knew what she was capable of"
Exactly.
Am I the only one or is anyone else disturbed that he seems so calm and having no problems discussing his children's deaths. He is looking for an attorney for his wife and gee, she just spiraled out of control. All very matter of fact like he is doing a work interview about the latest project.
posted on June 21, 2001 06:07:04 PM newAm I the only one or is anyone else disturbed that he seems so calm and having no problems discussing his children's deaths. He is looking for an attorney for his wife and gee, she just spiraled out of control. All very matter of fact like he is doing a work interview about the latest project.
Has it hit him yet that their 5 kids are DEAD??
Oh, I find it very disturbing. And more than a little suspicious.
The other day, when I first saw the report on TV, the story contained a brief interview with a neighbor at whose house the father and some of the kids attended a birthday party several days earlier. The neighbor described asking the father where the children's mother was. Reportedly, he told the neighbor, "She's at home, suffering from depression."
That strikes me as weird. It's like he was shoring up the alibi. When somebody asks a question like that, most people would respond with a polite dodge, like "She's not feeling well today," or "She had some things to attend to, she regrets not being able to come." Not "She's suffering from depression."
posted on June 21, 2001 06:08:58 PM new
The camera also panned the yard, showing the kids toys. The husband said he was going to keep one for each child, as a memento, and give the others away. All very matter of factly. Made me sick to watch, so I turned it off.
posted on June 21, 2001 07:02:59 PM new
You know, I've always had a problem with people falling under suspicion because they don't react the way people want them to.
Come ON people, can you say shock? The brain is a wonderful thing that (at times) protects us from ourselves.....refusal to comprehend all 5 of your children dead seems pretty damn likely. Seriously, can you even imagine getting a call like that and finding that kind of scene at home?!?
Just last night I saw a show where a man was convicted for a rape he did NOT commit. A jury memeber said part of the reason she voted to convict was: "He showed no emotion during the trial and if *I* were on trial for something I didn't do *I* would be upset." WTF is THAT?!?!
posted on June 21, 2001 07:17:05 PM new
Yeah the father should do the middle eastern thing and wail and scream faint and rip his shirt so everybody knows how bad he feels.
They hire extra professionals to do it for the cameras also. Means nothing. What is the point of retaining a little dignity huh? There was a fellow here in Detroit that was very calm and composed after his wife was murdered and a lot of his neighbors and even the TV and papers were surprised when someone else had done it. They all had him pegged for it because he did not put a big show on for them. He had no use for his so called friends later.
posted on June 21, 2001 07:19:58 PM new
"The brain is a wonderful thing.." I think that too, but then I think that maybe the brain just told me to think that.
posted on June 21, 2001 10:25:50 PM newNo, I don't understand PPS, but like spaz, I too am sick of society always finding an "out" for someone who does a horrific crime, under the guise of "mental illness". There are pills for waking up, going to sleep, bowel movements, eye care, bloodpressure, heart, muscle growth, hair loss, depression, hyperactivity. Excuses excuses excuses galore.
Hep:
I do agree with a lot of what you have said. It pisses me off when so jerk murders his girlfirend because she no longer wants to be with him and an attorney comes up with a insanity defense that gets him off. There are pills for depression and I am sure that they work wonders for some people. They didnt help me one bit. That is not an "excuse". I am sure that they don't work for a lot of people. I have tried just about every SSRI there is. They just don't work and it is so frustrating. I am still sitting here waiting for the next time when I get so depressed that I will not want to get out of bed. I am also waiting for the day when I get so depressed I will take my own life. She shouldn't have been left alone with those babies. I dont even think she should have been anywhere near them. Maybe the father was sick of dealing with her and the kids. Maybe he thought this was the best way to "divorce" his family. It makes me want to cry when I think of how those kids suffered at the end. That woman was "mommy" to them, probably the person they trusted most in the world and she killed them.
____________________________ [email protected]
Caravaggio/confusedandsleepy are not my names at eBay.
posted on June 21, 2001 10:33:24 PM new
caravaggio, I am sorry you are going through that yourself. I am not as upset as I was earlier, and I know I was being unfair as well as being unreasonable. I am not an ogre, but I do get very passionate about child or animal abuse and don't always hold my tongue when I should. This wasn't abuse. It was murder of 5 innocent children that should never have been left alone with this woman and her history of depression. Caravaggio, I hope you are getting help, and won't give up seeking it and trying different methods of controlling it. It is out of my league, and I don't understand it since I have never had it myself. My thoughts and good wishes are with you.
Thank you. I can understand that you are upset. Even knowing how rough depression is, it is very, very hard for me to feel pity for the woman. I do feel for her. I feel more for the kids. Animals, kids and old people are my weak points,so I understand how you feel. You are right: She never, ever should have been left alone with those poor babies. Thanks for your kind words.
____________________________ [email protected]
Caravaggio/confusedandsleepy are not my names at eBay.
posted on June 21, 2001 10:58:35 PM new
I have been reading some of your posts on this topic. I am wondering how many of you women have ever experienced Post Partum Depression. I mean in the extreme. I did with my 2nd child and it was the scariest thing I have EVER experienced. Actions that were very hard to control. Feelings so Intense there were no words to describe. I was lucky and had family to help me through if not Me nor my daughter would probably be here today. No one here knows what this woman was feeling at the time she did such a drastic thing. I don't put blame on just her. She had no control. I know what that feels like and it is VERY SCARY!!!!. She should never have been left alone with her children. I myself do not believe in the death penalty for NO ONE. No matter how awful the crime. It makes us no better than them. Lock them up and never let them out is satifactory. But I do know this woman will be BEGGING to die. I know I would be!!!!
posted on June 21, 2001 11:11:45 PM new
I don't doubt that mental illness is sometimes used as a false defense but it's still just as real and just as debilitating as any other illness.
When I worked at a psyche ward there were many people there that were completely out of touch with reality. Most of them had chemical imbalances that had to be corrected and monitored. Some of them mutiliated themselves - some of them hurt others - some of them were delusional. I remember one man who was so severely depressed that he literally forgot how to operate a telephone... I had to show him how it worked although he'd used one probably thousands of times. His mind was just numb from depression.
There was a lady that came in often. She had a mental illness that caused her to obssess over her hands being cleaned. This was to the extent that she would use brillo pads soaked in lysol to scrub her arms from just below her elbows all the way to her finger tips to "get the germs off." She never felt the pain of the brillo pad even as it was peeling her skin away. No matter what she tried her mind could never accept that her hands were clean. Yes, it was in her mind - but, it was real to her and it wasn't something she could control. Mental illness comes in different forms just like physical illnesses do but more often than not - it's not something the person has any level of control over. Someone - apparently a lot of people - didn't take this ladies illness seriously enough. I won't be surprised if we learn that there were plenty of warning signs and if she was on Haldol she was suffering from a real psychosis - not a minor depression.
I can't imagine that the other adults in her life or her doctor that knew about her condition would have had such little compassion for her and her children that they would leave the children in her direct care and responsibility. I can only guess that someone didn't believe her illness was real. People don't choose to be mentally ill any more than a person chooses to have their leg broken. If I apply enough pressure to your leg it will eventually break. The mind is the same way... apply enough pressure and eventually something has to give.
This lady may have killed her children but if she was as seriously mentally ill as her history sounds then she wasn't the only one responsible for their deaths and she doesn't deserve death herself.
posted on June 21, 2001 11:20:10 PM new
Really, she shouldn't be punished at all, but treated. We don't (or shouldn't) punish people for things that they have no control over.
This topic is 7 pages long: 1new2new3new4new5new6new7new
