posted on June 22, 2001 12:23:43 AM
I've no doubt that she will be treated now, but there is a flaw, at least in California, that prevents a health care treater from doing more than recommending that his or her patient be given in-patient involuntary treatment unless the person expresses in such a way that the treater has evidence that the patient may pose a danger to self or to others. Once there has been an overt act, the treater can then impose requirements in treatment without the patient's acquiescence.
Very often the patient and also the immediate relevant persons wish to deny that there is a problem, or worse, believe that they can take care of the problem themselves, and avoid the stigma which is attached, or perceived as being attached, to accepting that help is needed.
Also, it's not easy to realize that you can't fix someone you love, or anyone else for that matter.
posted on June 22, 2001 01:26:29 AM
Read the following description of the 7 year-old's final moments, then continue your pity-party for that "poor mentally ill mother."
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June 22, 2001 -- Horrifying new details of the deaths of five Texas kids drowned by their mom emerged yesterday - as their grief-stricken dad stunned the nation by declaring his undying love for his wife.
The Houston Chronicle, quoting an unidentified investigator, said Andrea Yates told cops that her oldest son, Noah, 7, walked into the bathroom as she drowned his baby sister, 6-month-old Mary.
"What's wrong with Mary," the little boy asked - then bolted from the room.
His mom chased him through the house and dragged him to the bathtub, where he shared his siblings' fate, the report said.
In an extraordinary news conference, Russell Yates, the NASA computer scientist who raced home from work to find his life in ruins, stood in front of his Houston home yesterday, gripped a portrait of his wife and children and spoke stoically of forgiveness.
"You know, Andrea, if you see this, I love you," he told his imprisoned wife, who is due in court today on a charge of capital murder.
"I want to help her through this. I want to show her that I love her, support her, and be there for her.
"It's hard because on one hand I know she killed our children, but on the other I know that the woman here is not the woman who killed my children . . . She wasn't in the right frame of mind."
Andrea Yates, 36, drowned Noah, Mary, John, 5, Paul, 3 and Luke, 2 - before calling police and her husband to their tidy brick home Wednesday morning, authorities said.
Fear gripped her husband as he raced home from the nearby Johnson Space Center after a chilling phone conversation.
"She said, ‘I need you to come home.' I said, ‘Is anyone hurt?' She said, ‘Yes.' And I said: ‘Who?' And she said: ‘All of them.' My heart just sank."
The mom is being held under suicide watch.
Family members say the drownings were the terrible climax to years of post partum depression brought on by the birth of her fourth child. They will argue she be spared the death penalty.
Standing on his front lawn, in front of a tree decorated with flowers and a giant teddy bear, Yates maintained his wife loved her children.
"She is a kind and gentle person. What you saw yesterday, that's not her," he said, before disappearing inside the house to plan his children's funerals.
posted on June 22, 2001 01:34:49 AM
Thank you, Spazmodeus, for bringing that without your edits--it makes the point which has been made here, that she is not deserving of your preferred spite but only deserving of care, treatment, and yes, pity. That is, if anyone here were to sit in judgement of her.
posted on June 22, 2001 01:37:01 AM
It is possible to feel sorry for everyone involved, Spazmodeus. Compassion and understanding aren't finite resources that, if given to one, can't also be extended at the same time to another.
posted on June 22, 2001 08:55:39 AM
Anyone that can kill 5 children with their bare hands, has to be mentally ill. Especially her own children. Mentally ill or not, she is too dangerous to let live. What she did is worse than what Mcveigh did, just less bodies. It would take a whole different breed of evil to kill one's own children in such a cold blooded way. I can't believe that anybody can muster the breath to utter any understanding or forgiveness for such an act. She should be held down and drowned, too.
posted on June 22, 2001 10:56:14 AMKRS Unless things have changed over the last few years Texas has the same flawed system.
JLpiece We don't know all of the facts of this case yet. But, I see contradiction in your beginning statement of this woman "obviously" having a mental illness... but, yet you consider her acts to have been the result of "evil" intent. You obviously have no understanding of how a true psychosis effects a person. If you would like to get an idea then I'd suggest you spend a little time visiting any psychiatric facility around the country. Or, you could choose to go through life taking the easy way out... maybe for you the less frightening way out... and believe that this woman just "had" to be evil.
The truth is that psychotic illnesses can strike any one of us at any time. All it takes is a slight shift in your brain chemistry - left untreated - and you could be the subject of this conversation. Of course, it's safer for your own sanity just to believe she must be evil.
posted on June 22, 2001 11:02:27 AM
jlpiece.....maybe we should do as Hitler did and gas all the mentally deviant and insane as they all could be potentially a danger.
posted on June 22, 2001 11:03:50 AM
That sounds beautiful and all, but if that is the case, then every criminal should be considered mentally ill, and we should empty the prisons and fill the psychiatric ward. Although I don't have much experience in a mental ward, I did spend 2 1/2 years in prison, and I can assure you that you do not want to treat these kind of people as "mentally ill." I have lived with and ate with and talked with killers and rapists and thieves and your stance that these people are victims is just the type of behavior that is pounced upon and taken advantage of.
posted on June 22, 2001 11:21:32 AM
One must wonder about the judgment of the prescribing physician. Ortho-McNeill's stock may be what gets the axe.
----------------------------------
HALDOL (haldoperidol)
Indications]
Haloperidol is indicated in the management of manifestations of acute and chronic psychosis, including schizophrenia and manic states. It may also be of value in the management of aggressive and agitated behavior in patients with chronic brain syndrome and mental retardation and in the symptomatic control of Gilles de la Tourette's syndrome.
---------------------------------------------
Contraindications]
Comatose states and CNS depression due to alcohol or other depressant drugs; severe depressive states; previous spastic diseases; lesions of the basal ganglia; Parkinson's syndrome, except in the case of dyskinesias due to levodopa treatment; sensitivity to haloperidol; senile patients with pre-existing Parkinson-like symptoms.
Adverse Effects Behavioral
Insomnia, depressive reactions, and toxic confusional states are the more common effects encountered. Drowsiness, lethargy, stupor and catalepsy, confusion, restlessness, agitation, anxiety, euphoria, and exacerbation of psychotic symptoms, including hallucinations, have also been reported.
Careful titration seems to be especially important in the administration of this particular drug.
Dosage
Initial dosage should be individualized through consideration of severity of symptoms, age, weight, health, previous response to neuroleptic drugs and concomitant disease states. It is important initially to increase dosage adequately until symptoms are controlled or side effects requiring lowering the dosage or discontinuing the drug are encountered. When a satisfactory therapeutic response is achieved, reduce dosage gradually to the lowest effective maintenance level.
Last item, under Contraindications:
Pregnancy and Lactation
Safety for use in pregnancy and lactation has not been established; do not administer to women of childbearing potential or nursing mothers unless, in the opinion of the physician, the expected benefits of the drug outweigh the potential hazard to the fetus or child.
posted on June 22, 2001 12:47:19 PMPareau Nice to see you again. Unless the laws in Texas have changed in the last few years the only person who could have committed this lady under the circumstances would have been her husband. He could have requested a 72 hour in-patient evaluation. As KRS mentioned, the law would have required the physician to have considered her a threat to herself or someone else. This may have changed because it has been a while since I've been around this field.
JL You still haven't clarified your contradicting statement. Either she has a mental illness as you began your statement... or she has to be evil... as you ended your statement. Do you think that only evil people suffer from psychosis or mental breakdowns?
posted on June 22, 2001 12:52:35 PM
Perhaps jlpiece subscribes to the old Christian belief that the mentally ill are "possessed" by the Devil & are therefore evil...?
edited cuz "land" & "piece" just aren't the same thing...
[ edited by bunnicula on Jun 22, 2001 12:53 PM ]
posted on June 22, 2001 02:41:38 PM
Oh so OVER ANALlyzed! does it ever stop! It is all so S I M P L E !!!!! if you know right from wrong you are not mentally ill. If you kill your children then call the police you have enough sense to know you did wrong. Her behavior is not mentally illness. It is murder. This is someone who wanted to kill those little brats and blame it on mental illness, plus she probably hated her husband too. Again, if you know right from wrong you are not mentally ill. IF you kill your children and then call the cops, You know you have done wrong. IT is so simple. Read this post over and over until common sense becomes clear.
[ edited by artdoggy on Jun 22, 2001 02:44 PM ]
[ edited by artdoggy on Jun 22, 2001 02:49 PM ]
posted on June 22, 2001 03:03:42 PMArtdoggyI would try to explain how it's possible for a person to act as she did and still be under the influence of a true psychotic episode but I wouldn't want to destroy the oh so safe, oversimplified and delusional world you've created for yourself... reality can be a such a b*tch.
posted on June 22, 2001 03:12:44 PM
Yes, it is quite simple isn't it. There is no research involved, no hoards of dr's, psychologists, and you know what is really simple, NO PHARMACUTICALS, wow imagine that! No insurance companies, no hospitalization, no long term health facilties, Gee, if everything was this simple I guess the health profession would just be out of luck or should I say out of buck?
posted on June 22, 2001 04:38:47 PM
Hello Everyone,
Another emotional topic under discussion here and I know it's hard, but please do not insult other AW members because their view differs from your own.
posted on June 22, 2001 04:48:27 PM
Let me clarify for the slow ones. I believe that to kill your own children you must be menatlly ill. I believe that if you kill your own children you are evil. I believe that if one subscribes to the notion that anybody with mental illness should not be punished, then that rules out most criminals since almost all crime can be blamed on depression or some other such "illness". Once again, its just another case of people not wanting to accept responsibility for their actions. If this is not clear enough for someone, perhaps you might want to reassess your own sanity. Hope that helpls.
posted on June 22, 2001 04:54:13 PM
And quit confusing mental illnesses such as depression, puberty, PMS or post partum whatever with retardation. With the above the cognitive ability to know right from wrong still exists as another poster pointed out. That is all that is needed in a court of law. She knew she was wrong, but she did it anyway. In most circles, that's called being a criminal.
posted on June 22, 2001 04:58:42 PM
MyBidness, I am not laughing, quite the contrary. I think you misunderstand me. I am just as horrified by this tragedy as you. But my opinion is that a person who can kill then call the cops is not mentally ill. We all have depression, good days, bad days. Some people on this chat are on medication and rightfully so I am sure. But I am really tired of people blaming their illness. In a court of law, they will ask her if she knows right from wrong. A psychologist is going to evaluate her, if she knows the difference between right and wrong. People can have depression and a host of psychological problems yet they still know right from wrong. I think she is accountable. I don't think there is anything mentally wrong with her either. Human beings, all human beings have the capacity to do evil.
posted on June 22, 2001 05:06:06 PM
Oh please, I don't think the kid are brats. I used that term as a way of communicating what she probably thought of them.
posted on June 22, 2001 05:25:26 PM
It seems to me, that many opinions on this thread are based on the belief that mental illness is not a disease that really exists.
posted on June 22, 2001 05:37:05 PM
As much as it irks me to admit it, I have to agree with artdoggy. I too have a really hard time (which most of you already know) of crimes such as this blamed on an illness, mental or otherwise. If she could call the cops AFTER chasing her 7 year old son down and then drowning him while he begged MOMMY to STOP, then call her husband with the same news AFTER his body was floating and quite dead, she could have done the same thing BEFORE. Again, I hope she dies, and dies very slowly. Dip her sorry face in water and let her struggle 5 times before holding down for good.
I'd best take another quick break from this thread before I get as angry as I was last night.
posted on June 22, 2001 05:45:04 PMLet me clarify for the slow ones. I believe that to kill your own children you must be menatlly ill. I believe that if you kill your own children you are evil. I believe that if one subscribes to the notion that anybody with mental illness should not be punished, then that rules out most criminals since almost all crime can be blamed on depression or some other such "illness". Once again, its just another case of people not wanting to accept responsibility for their actions. If this is not clear enough for someone, perhaps you might want to reassess your own sanity. Hope that helpls.
Might we have an idea of to whom you refer? Or are these bolded insulting phrases of the "broad brush" sort directed at any and all members?
