posted on October 27, 1999 09:27:43 PM new
Well, out of almost thirty items that have had bids, I have only had one true deadbeat (never responded to e-mail), one guy that took thirty days to send payment, and a third that could go either way. Other than that the bidders have been great. Especially the folks from Australia, no worries mate!
Can't speak for the FV credit request though. I just don't feel like 20 cents or less is worth the trouble......
I sell some promotional items on auctions.com under the [email protected] user ID.
I also help a few contacts do some selling. I've not had many reports of deadbeat bidders from those who sell using the standard auction format ... although I've heard of a few.
All these folks also signed up for BidSafe and, at least in my case, all the transactions are handled as BidSafe transactions.
This means that 100 percent of the purchases are pre-qualified -- funds collected -- before I even deal with them.
I've found, that unless someone has an address snafu, it is no-longer even necessary to go through the EOA email. Instead, auctions.com collects the money from the buyers credit card (automatically) and posts me that they have the cash.
I ship the item and auctions.com posts the buyer it has been shipped. It all works pretty doggone well.
I've had one person attempt to buy with a credit card that didn't pass muster. I didn't give it a second thought or spend any time on it as it never came up that I needed to.
Frankly, that is what I like about the Bidsafe system most. You don't waste any time on deadbeats at all.
posted on November 9, 1999 11:54:44 AM new
Thanks. It's kinda remarkable that other online auction venues seem to have been plagued by the whole deadbeat retinue, but not you. I guess I have to presume that any bidders that sign up with Bid-safe have actual, real live, valid credit cards. Hmmm.
I don't mean to imply that there aren't some deadbeat bidders on auctions.com -- rather that you can largely avoid them with bidsafe. Either their credit card works or it doesn't and you typically (but not always) know that within minutes of the auctions end.
Second, in general deadbeats aren't quite the problem on auctions.com because we also send the registration name and address for both buyers and sellers at the conclusion of an auction.
This means that if the address is odd -- New York Wyoming 90201 -- you've got a pretty good idea this bidder may be a joke.
Of course we encourage folks when they run into a bogus address to report it immediately. Providing inaccurate information is reason for deregistering the user.
I've been thinking a lot about the deadbeat bidder issue.
While any site can and every site does have some deadbeat bidders, my belief now is that auctions.com is less impacted because of our more aggressive stance against shill bidding.
I think a large percentage of the deadbeat bidders are actually shills seeking to disguise their shill bidding activity. The slicker shills disguise their activities by bidding, but failing to buy, auctions offered by others.
No wonder these folks are so hot when a honest seller gets irate about them failing to conclude a deal. The shill is thinking that because they helped run-up the price on some sucker two weeks ago; the seller should be grateful and excuse their little miscalculation. After all, everybody does it and no one pays more than they bid.
And, because sellers love their no-neg status, most sellers just blow off. No negs means there are few consequences for the deadbeat bidder.
Being victimized by the same “deadbeat” also provides the shilling seller a ready explanation for why he relisted the item the next week.
The sham goes on as long as the deadbeat account is undiscovered. And the shill account gains in credibility every time a seller blows off the deadbeat.
Bottom line is when suspicious buyers go to look at other the suspicious bidder's bidding record, they see, not a stupid shill pattern of bidding only on the seller's auctions, but a picture of a bidder bidding on dozens of seller's auctions. Heck, they may even buy a few things with the account and get some “real” positive feedback.
Other than the fact of direct collusion between the bidder and the seller in a shill ring, there is also little practical difference between a bid offered by a deadbeat bidder and one from a shill bidder? Both are forms of bid manipulation as neither intend to conclude the sale.
Also consider that this shill bidding activity may not be at all benign in intent. Some shill/deadbeats may also seeking to run up the price of a competitor's item with the intent to:
1. Establish a higher perceived value for the exact item offered and
2. make their lower priced (they didn’t bid it up so high) item seem the better value so it will attract “real bidders”
So how big a problem is this?
Probably the most astounding thing I've read or seen is the pitch at a new auction site called "noshills.com".
These folks suggest that shilling activity is totally out of control. They say:
[quote] Shill bidding is very easy for sellers in online auctions and it is extremely common. We suggest that you research the values of the items you want before you bid. Don’t trust any bids in other online auctions because we assure you shills are used by a significant number (maybe a majority!) of sellers in traditional online auctions. Many sellers use shill bidding on all of their auctions! Most buyers in online auctions are honest and unaware that the problem is so rampant.[/quote]
I can assure you Radh that shill bidding activity is extremely rare on auctions.com.
Still the assertion that perhaps a majority of the auctions are shill bid disturbs me because if this is true, this is a major scandal.
I am pleased to say that our no-tolerance policy on shill bidding (and other forms of bid manipulation) is well known. At this time, I believe unscrupulous sellers simply avoid selling on our site because of the controls we have in place and the certain consequences if they are discovered.
And, to restate those consequences for anyone who is unaware, if you're caught shilling on auctions.com it's bye-bye forever. No second chance … just go away boy, you bother us.
To recap, Radh, our anti-shill policy (and the guts to enforce it) is probably the main reason we avoid the increasing problem other sites are having with deadbeats.
posted on November 22, 1999 10:16:26 AM new
Hi there, Pat!
Thank you for these extensive posts. I actually had NO idea that the deadbeat bidder problem might be predicated upon the illegal practice of shilling.
Ouch!
I'll have to continue to give more thought to the issues in your posts -- if at all accurate, then obviously, it is scandalous.
I'll have to go check out no.shill.com and see what they have to say.
posted on November 22, 1999 10:54:53 AM new
Well I took a brief look at the FAQ for http://www.noshills.com and I'd have to say that it is a pretty depressing document.
I also wonder if their allegations are true??????
I'm glad that your post was so extensive, Pat, as I can follow your line of reasoning and understand your points.
However, I really hate to believe that the info about the preponderance of shilling all over is accurate.
WHERE could people possible get FACTUAL DOCUMENTATION to make the allegations made?
Let me say first that I have no direct or personal proof that what I said is the truth.
The allegations of the extent of the shilling problem are those of noshills.com only.
What I sought to do above was posit this as a theory of why deadbeat bidding has exploded on other sites and not on auctions.com.
I too hope that I am wrong as it would be a scandal of immense proportions.
However, as Colonelh, over on the outlook points out, he's not at all afraid of getting caught for his shilling activity. It really isn't that difficult to hide shilling when you bid on dozens of auctions from others.
As far as the assertion that possibly a majority of the auctions elsewhere are shilled or other wise subject to bid manipulation, that was a statement made at www.noshills.com. Again, I hope that is an exaggeration.
Bottom line, what I wrote as a theory based on logic and the multitude of troubling facts that I see and hear every day. Its truth has yet to be proven or disproven.
For the sake of the industry I would hope that it would be disproven.
But even if it is largely inaccurate, I can't help but wonder what is an acceptable level of such bid manipulation?
Is it two percent, five percent, one tenth of one percent, twenty pecent? What???
Pat
PS: I know that on auctions.com zero percent is the goal and only acceptable figure. Again, our policy toward shill bidders is to send them packing forever on the first proven instance.
posted on November 22, 1999 11:26:49 AM new
When I first started selling on eBay, I could not understnad what the concept of shilling meant, and it took me months to finally conceptualize it.
Just the fact that it apparently is so very easy to do, and also, that such a scenario lends PLAUSABILITY to the great number of deadbeats reprted at all the other online auctions, makes it a very cogent hypothesis.
Very logical.
Particularly as it imparts an understandable MOTIVATION to the behavior.
Yishy! ISHY!
I have a feeling that the theories presented at noshills.com are gonna become very well publically known fast.
Sounds like a natural for a news story, ya know?
On other messageboards, I've read that most online auction venues truly have NO reason to research shilling -- as such practices would increase the final value fee.
I've always felt this was not a good argument, as ANYTHING which increases bidder paranoia leads to decreased bidding activity.
Ya know, I am honestly naive, dumb, and ignorant, and particularly have difficulty thinking in a "criminal manner", so I've had real difficulty staying up to speed with the fraudulent practices possible that I've read about.
I remember being very confused when there was a thread at the eBay Outlook discussing the *Good* that came deadbeats - afterall, didn't their bidding help increase the overall final bid at most auctions?
Deadbeats simply created a paperwork disaster and a huge amount of auctions for which I paid final value fees, but did NOT represent actual sales. LOTS of these same deadbeats also sent numerous sham questions about my auctions.
All in all, a very disgusting experience.
So, I am really glad that you have enlightened me about this, as I really was CLUELESS.
Do you believe that Auctions.com actually has procedures in place that can identify shillers?
I do not think that the auctions at noshills.com are gonna get very many bids, as the whole "game"/entertainment part of the online auction is eliminated by their protocols.
I know about the threads on other sites that show latitude and tolerance toward shills. Some even point to specific tools -- cancel any bid for one -- that makes it easy.
We've never had that attitude at auctions.com because we are quite aware of the news media.
Bottom line, it just wouldn't do for us to be in a headline that says, "Auction site owned by the newspapers accused of ingorning, even condoning shill bidding. -- consumers cheated out of thousands of dollars by sellers breaking rules."
As far as the procedures and protocols involved to limit shill bidding on auctions.com, let me point to a couple.
First, sellers are allowed one bid using their selling ID only and for the purpose of winning an auction that has bids, in order to end an auction. The purpose of this provision is to close an auction where the item has been destroyed. Our programming is actually setup to prevent a second bid by the seller's account.
Second, our proxy bidding system -- called robo bid -- treats the proxy bid as the first bidder at all levels of bidding. This eliminates the tell-tale clue a shill bidder would have that the bidders Proxy offer is higher.
Overall, our bid histories, coupled with robobid, provide the most detailed record of bidding of any auction anywhere. These tools can be used effectively to identify and investigate shills, particularly since they go back at least 90 days (three months). This activity aids both bidders and investigators in assessing whether bid activity was bogus.
Our end of auction emails informs both buyers and sellers of the name and shipping address (billing address) of the trading partner. Even in regular (not bidsafe) auctions, this information is valuable in determining the veracity of the bid. To wit: if the seller is listed as I.L. Cheatu at Alcatraz, CA; ... don't send your money and do report this individual to [email protected] or even [email protected].
Indeed, one of the most often used elements, when one has suspicions of shill bidding, is to try and contact the shill bidding account. The pattern and also the fact that the shill account may be a bogus account, will result in the suspension of the bogus account immediately.
In the case of bidsafe auctions, if the buyer is less than happy for any reason with a purchase -- including even the suspicion that they've been shill bid -- BidSafe provides them the avenue to return the item. This return priviledge extends up until the set time for the assumption for a return has expired (typically 10-15 days after the transaction.)
Of course, if complaint from the buyer is he suspects he was shill bid, that would spark an immediate investigation.
Bottom line we get involved in the case of any BidSafe auctions that has gone awry because of suspicions of shill bidding.
Finally, seller ratings can be left for auctions up to 90 days after the auction's end. Seller ratings can also be edited by the buyer and positive's can be changed to negatives and negatives to positives and neutrals can go either way.
While none of these "controls" are fool proof in preventing shill bidding, the fact is that it is so much easier to pull this type of stuff on other sites that few seek to shill on auctions.com and most of them get caught.
Pat
PS: There are other tools available to our investigators to ferret out and confirm such activity but I'll not go into them.
---
Neomax
It sounds like alot of problems encountered on other sites simply do not arise on your venue.
For instance, I've had plenty of auctions where the bidding went through the roof, which was VERY disconcerting, as my valued repeat customers were actually bidding against a BOGUS DEADBEAT, aka: Auction Saboteur.
Interestingly, at least nine times outta ten, I actually knew beforehand when an auction received alot of action from an eventual deadbeat. Indeed, I actually cancelled some bids which I knew full well were absolutely bogus. I realized at a certain point that there was NO way I could babysit my auctions 24/7, much less keep up with all the bogus emails requiring answers.
I hate to ask this, but I am really curious: Is it all right for THE SELLER to report suspicious bidding activities to [email protected]?
In earlier threads about the deadbeats, I was occasionally accused of ATTRACTING deadbeats to my auctions, an accusation I that infuriated me, as I do not like any form of "blaming the victim," but in these posts at this message board today, I am learning that the deadbeats MIGHT be correlated to a much larger issue which has to do with anonymous shilling of ALL SORTSA AUCTIONS, simply to raise all manner of auctions' final high bids -- so that the shiller can camoflage his ACTUAL intent & goal -- simply spread it out so wide and broad that it is difficult to investigate.
I frankly find this all abit more than a leeetle DISTASTEFUL.
Ya know?
Thank YOU again for such interesting info and such enlightening, education posts, which have given me and my business partners alot to think and deliberate about.
[quote]Is it all right for THE SELLER to report suspicious bidding activities to [email protected]?[/quote]
Sure it is okay. Anything that raises suspicions or compromises the integrity of the auction site is of interest and important to us.
As far as the subject matter involved, I have mixed feelings about talking about it. But the assertion, true or not, by the folks at noshills.com provided the imputus for me to talk as their accusation was pointed at us as well as the other sites.
Well, thank you for discussing this subject, as really, the entire idea is VERY THOUGHT PROVOCATIVE, and puts a whole buncha stuff into a whole different 'nother light, where a whole number of baffling non-transactions of the past take on whole new light, like they comprise a whole new Universe where LOGIC & reason reign supreme.
I would NEVER ever have been able to form any such hypothesis, on my own, and there is a whole buncha stuff that is startin' to make a whole buncha sense.
I am really irritated about this whole issue of shilling, and why I am genuinely irritated is that I frequently purchased MORE items in accordance with the popularity of bids on similar items, and it's like its all just a MIRAGE, probably.
It appears to me that what you're questioning is the apparent vibrancy of the entire marketplace on one particular, unnamed site.
Personally, I think there are a number of factors that contribute.
First, because sellers are more certain of at least a "fair" wholesale price for their goods, they are willing to list items at a lower opening bid on some sites. The obvious reason is that a "dealer" in such goods is almost always present and is willing to obtain a particular item at a perceived bargain.
A certain floor of bidding activity -- and I have to say legitimate bidding activity -- exists on this level.
It also looks good to sellers in general because 40-50 percent of the items offered get these low-ball, but legitimate bids.
Then there are the indiscriminate shillers and deadbeats. They add to the bids contributing an absolute unknown percentage of the bids but potentially significant amounts to the amount bid.
Finally, there are the legitimate buyers.
A mirage would imply there is nothing there. There is something there but it simply not exactly as it appears.
posted on December 4, 1999 09:01:27 AM new
Yeah, Pat -- I guess you are right that the word, mirage is inaccurate.
I am simply abit disgusted that on occasion I have purchased books for re-sale, NOT because *I* belived in the book -- but rather due to intense bidding activity that arose on the item, so I stocked up on more.
I won't do this in the future, as there is no way to factually determine if such interest FACTUALLY exists or if the popularity of the item is actually due to RANDOM shilling of auctions by strangers.
I'm gonna go with the Bid$afe ONLY payment option - and I am really curious now, to see what resulting sales I actually achieve next year.
My real customers have been GREAT, and really, it sickens me that they may have paid more for their purchases from me due to acts of random shilling. It unnerves me, particularly my inability to discover this possible scenario on my own.
Thank YOU for all your assistance in enlightening me.
I feel like an Ignorant doh! for not seeing this, myself.
[ edited by radh on Dec 4, 1999 09:04 AM ]