posted on December 7, 1999 10:31:40 AM new
December 7th... seems appropriate.
Seems the North Carolina Auction Licensing Board wants YOU the seller to get a license to sell on online auctions!
Wait a minute! We are just the buyers and sellers. ebay, amazon, bargainhut, etc are the auctioneers! Why are they requiring us to get a $175 (and $250 next year) license?
Read more of my comments at
http://ebayexodus.com/news.html
and the original article here
http://auctionrover.com/NewsFeatures/NewsAndFeaturesArticle.asp?TargetID=439
I don't have time to read them until much later on today, but they look interesting.
The OAUA is taking an active stand about this issue, and there were a whole number of posts at the eBay Outlook about it.
I have NO intentions of having any board of OFFLINE auctioneers license me. From what I have read in books and articles about real world auctioneers, I don't want any of them to "accredit" me.
If something goes real crazy real fast, and I am required by law in my state to be licensed, then I can simply change my auctions quickly at auctions.com to retail FOR SALE items.
Did you know that auctions.com is NOT ONLY A VENUE, like eBay, et al?
Really! They consider themselves the auctioneer, particularly in the case of Bid$afe auctions.
I'm sure Pat will tell ya all about it!
[b]Incidentally, I consider myself to be performing the chores associated with a SMALL MAIL ORDER BUSINESS - my wares are online, not in a snail mail catalogue. Oneline auctions aren't really auctions, just a cute twist on normal retailing. What is useful to me about the online "auction" format, is that I can schedule the precise dates of the actual sales (EOAs).
posted on December 7, 1999 10:48:24 AM new
I don't have time to make the links right now, maybe later on, but a couple threads here which may interest you are entitled:
First, I agree that the online auction is, in the mind of the seller, the "auctioneer" but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what folks like Bob Hamilton are talking about.
Here, let me play devil's advocate for a minute.
Imagine this scene in a sleepy little courthouse in a small rural county in anystate USA.
First, we see the attorney for the State Board of Auctioneers. He enters the user agreement on eBay into evidence. Highlighted in yellow is the phrase, "We are just a venue."
He then calls the president of the State Auctioneer's association -- Hod Bidright, to the stand and he asks him this:
"Hi Hod, Let me ask you in your professional and expert opinion formed over 40 years in the auction business, is the transaction alleged here in this complaint against this person an auction or not?"
Hod says, "I look at it this way. People go up there on the internet and bid on an item and when the hammer falls, the high bid wins. If that ain't an auction, I don't know what is."
The attorney continues, Mr. Bidright, in your expert opinion and based on the information available to this court, who do you think is the auctioneer in this transaction.
Hod says, "We, like everybody, thought at first that the auctioneer was the online auction -- you know, eBay."
"But we started look'n at it closer and we had to change our mind 'caus of what they had to say on their user agreement. In fact, that's how we know that eBay is not the auctioneer... they're just a venue like the newspaper that carries ads for my auctions." Hod said.
"When you look at it, all them folks at eBay do is advertise the auction put into motion by this fellow, the defendant, sitting over there," Hod said.
"Think about Judge," Hod continued, "it is just common sense that the buyer is just a buyer and couldn't be the auctioneer."
"And ... " pointing a printout of the eBay terms of service for emphasis, he says, "And again, here, here in black and white is the Internet company insisting they aren't the auctioneer -- that they're just a venue."
Continuing, he says, "and if the buyer aint the auctioneer and the venue ain't the auctioneer, then the guy handling the cash and listing the item and getting money for the item and doing all that auctioneering-type stuff like cancelling bids and all ...cause this is an auction as sure as my momma has white hair ... well, he's just gotta be the auctioneer."
"And, since he's buying for resale in his auction, he's also an auction firm. That, your honor, is the way I, in my expert opinion, see it under the laws of the great state of North Arkassippi."
Of course, there are two sides to and like I said, I'm just playing devils' advocate here.
Let's try out "our side" and, because it provides for a much better case, let's use a bidsafe auction on auctions.com.
Here's the testimony of Jim Sellerton, a BidSafe auction user from Mayberry.
Jim's attorney, John Briefly, asks him to describe exactly what he did to list the item in question as a bidsafe auction.
Jim said, "Well, your honor, the first thing I did was decide that after I brought that dang pot home and the wife didn't like it, that I better get rid of it before the fire marshall condemns the place, ha, ha."
"When did you buy the pot?" asked Briefly.
"At a reeeel auction on Saturday night," Jim said.
John: Did you buy it for resale at auction?
Jim: Nope, I bought it to see if my wife liked it. she didn't.
John: What did you do then?
Jim: I took a digital picture of it -- I didn't think there was anything illegal about taking a digital picture.
John: There isn't. Go on.
Jim: Then I described it as honestly as I could. I even mentioned that it has a scratch mark on the back side and I even took a picture of that.
Jim: Then I went to the online auction and listed it. I didn't pay anything for the listing on auctions.com so I didn't think I was actually advertising it -- you gotta pay for advertising -- but listing, well its free.
Anyway, I wrote some html, which I know because I am a computer hobbyiest to make the headline bigger and make sure all the pictures showed. Do they teach HTML in auctioneer school??
John: I don't think so.
Jim: I did put a title on it and I said it cost $5.00 to ship it and I said where I was from and that I would let auctions.com collect the money for me and essentially handle the transaction. I did that by clicking on bidsafe and specifying it as my only payment option.
Jim: I like doing that because I'm busy watching TV, I don't want to have to do much more than the html and the digital picture when I sell at mail order.
Jim: Anyway, because I didn't know how much it was worth, I did the same thing I used to do when I'd list an item in the newspaper. In fact, I knew it was going to be worth more than the dollar I was asking, but I did the next best thing ... I asked for "offer's" which I did by letting auctions.com run it as an auction. I could have just clicked another button right below -- I mean just less than an inch below -- and set the price at 25.00 and just sold it for that. But heck, I didn't have but $5.00 in it and figured I might just pass along a good deal to someone -- who's wife would like it.
Jim: Anyway, I said to start the auction and it ran for three days. The computer set the opening time and closing time for me and it really didn't even close then cause there was a bid at the last minute and they, not me, extended it.
Jim: There was one guy who always complains to me about the scratches he finds on some of my stuff even though I point them out. Anyway, he bid on it and I had to get a service rep at auctions.com to remove his bid because they don't let sellers do that themselves. Anyway, that might be considered auctioning if they did, but I didn't do none of that.
John: "So what happened next?
Jim: Well the auction closed and auctions.com sent me a post that had the winner's address on it. They also said they were going to charge his credit card. They did and sent me a confirmation to ship. I printed out the label and shipped the box. That's all.
John: Did you not email the person who bought your stuff?
Jim: I swear your honor, the only contact I had with that buyer was when I printed out his name and address and pasted it on the box my wife so graciously wrapped for shipping. She really didn't like the vase, your honor
John: "Are you saying you never had any contact with the buyer? ... no email, no thanks for the business, no nothing?"
Jim "That's exactly what I'm saying. I did put a note in the box -- I sent it priority at the post office and you can put notes in them legally, you know, that said thanks, I hope you bid on more of my stuff ... oh, and I did report to AUCTIONS.COM that I had shipped it and then I left feedback that said I love BidSafe and BidSafe buyers."
John: So, how did you get your money?
Jim: Oh, after the buyer got it, they went to auctions.com and on one of their forms they clicked that they "accepted the vase and thought it was georgous... at least that is what they said in the rating."
John: And the money?
Jim: Oh, after that, auctions.com processed my payment, taking out a percentage for the service of the credit card and they also docked by online account by 2.5 percent for their commission on the sale.
They ... I mean auctions.com ... then wrote me a check and I got it in the mail two days later.
John: That's all Jim.
John: "Your honor, you can't be an auctioneer or even auction firm if you never have direct contact with the buyer. My client didn't contact them, he didn't get money from them. The only thing he did was list an item for sale for best offer and ship when auctions.com said to ship. the auctions.com agreement states directly that they're the intermediary and since they, and not my client, makes the offer, earns a commission, handles the money, makes sure we deliver the goods, takes the risk of a chargeback if the buyer changes his mind and, through an associated firm even insures the product, I've got to believe that my client is innocent of being an auctioneer or even an auction firm because he doesn't do any auction stuff.
John: Indeed, your honor, it is plainly ludicrious that a resident of Norh Arkassippi could incriminate himself in this state by the act of clicking one button that is less than an inch away from other on a browser page served up from Chicago by a company based in Connecticut.
The judge, sees the point and dismisses the charges.
Oh well, I've already got a rep for being longwinded and I may have outdone myself on this one. I hope you found it an informative and entertaining read.
At least now you might understand how I come off saying that a BidSafe-type auction may be a better way to avoid these inroads by the states.
Why? Because it is very, very hard to suggest you're doing anything other than creating an ad and filling an order when you don't even contact the high bidder.
I think, really, that is the point of most online auction sellers have. It just seems like more elsewhere.
I do want to clarify one point regarding the clicking of a button less than one-inch below. That button is for the "for sale" format.
The alleged crime, at least in the case of an auctions.com BidSafe auction would be the selection of a dynamic pricing model for arriving at a price and the more direct "retail sale" model.
What the auctioneer's groups are tyring to do, IMHO, is stake out the entire range of dynamic pricing models as their exclusive territory. That is not going to happen.
They've not been successful in doing that even when they banded together in the states -- 12 State Legislatures have rebuked them by failing to enact "professional standards" for auctioneers -- and I don't think they'll be successful on a national or international scale.
That is not to say that our industry, as keeper of the flame, doesn't have some work to do.
