posted on January 13, 2001 08:45:21 PM
If you would like more information on AW I might suggest that you read the company profile from the home page.
According to the information I read there, it appears that AW is currently a privately held company. I wouldn't be surprised if they were to start charging fees eventually, people go into business to make money and AW is a business.
Personally if they do start charging fees, I would hope that they would offer a variety of pricing options. Perhaps different rates for individuals with a high volume of sales and for those, like myself, who list a small number of auctions per week but like the image hosting features, etc...
One possibility would be to start selling the software interface (which is currently included with their book) and perhaps include a limit on the amount of images and listings per week that are free. That might allow individuals selling on a part-time basis to continue using the image hosting and stuff for free (after purchasing the software) while permitting AW to raise some revenues for those who are selling full-time.
These ideas are completely my own and are pure speculation. I honestly have no idea what AW intends to do in the future.
It is obvious that if a company is to survive it must eventually make money. It doesn't matter what that company is or what service it provides. If I am required to pay for a service, such as image hosting, I am mostly likely to go to a company where I am satisfied with the level of customer service that is available. To date, I have been very impressed with the response times and level of service I have received from AW.
posted on January 13, 2001 08:54:13 PM
I'm concerned about this issue also. I'm a devoted reader of www.f***edcompany.com (which posts news/rumors about dot coms that crash & burn) and I am unable to see how any company can function indefinitely without showing a profit of some kind, or having some stream of revenue coming from *somewhere*. Banner advertising is no longer seen by most ebusinesses as a long-term source of revenue or freebie-funder. AW's book was a nice idea but judging from what I saw, is only a repackaged compilation of info already available on the site and on these boards for free. The appraisal thing was yanked. I honestly don't know what else they can do except charge for their management services (hosting/launching/etc.) If they do decide to charge (say 25 cents per item listed/hosted) I for one will not #*!@ and complain since I think AW has been a major source of my success, but I know that large numbers of sellers will howl & probably leave, which will cause yet another great service to bite the dust....sigh.
posted on January 13, 2001 10:09:19 PM
If I left AW, it wouldn't be because they started charging a fee (providing it wasn't much) but I would do what I now do in regards to ebay. I rarely list anything there unless it's going to go for more than $50, or thereabouts... OR I just REALLY want to get rid of it fast!
_________
I have a memory like a steel trap .. unfortunately it's rusted shut!
posted on January 13, 2001 10:48:42 PM
AW has the advantage, in the .com sense, that it runs on peanuts.
It is true however that it seems unlikely that AW as we know it shows a profit, and also seems unlikely for AW to ever show a profit in its current form.
AW's decision to dump ExchangePath shows integrity which garners respect. I think we all hope that AW can find a profitable model, and many of us hope to find ourselves on the paying end of what seems to be a good business relationship.
Niallc, AuctionWatch.com is doing fine- we're not about to drop off the web anytime soon. You can host your auctions here worry free, and for now fee free. Oddly enough it doesn't appear that you've ever used our services, though?
sg52, AuctionWatch.com has come a long way from it being an operation run strictly in my living room. We've got lots of employees and hundreds of servers to feed, and unfortunately they don't take peanuts for compensation. It takes a tremendous amount of dedication, work and cash to keep a .com online and reliable.
With regard to fees, AW has stated for months that it plans to charge users for premium services, and our plans have not changed. While I cannot comment on any other details regarding our planned fees, I can tell you they will not be unreasonable. I can also tell you that we will provide adequate notice (30 days minimum) prior to flipping the switch on any service charges.
I hope that people find value in what AW brings them now, and I hope you're excited (and find value in) the services you'll be seeing in the coming months. We've been hard at work on some very cool ideas. It's quite exciting to bring them to you.
posted on January 13, 2001 11:31:09 PM
I for one, only use AW as a sounding board/research area...I do not host my pics here, or use any of the auction tools available....
I love the info I garner from the AW boards, but I don't see having to pay for that service...and I am sure that Mark and the folks at AW will not deem it "profitable" to charge a Basic Membership Fee for those of us who use AW as a "meeting place".
If you DO use AW, or any other assisted listing site, I would suggest that if you want to do it for free, it is time to learn some basic HTML, because if you want it for free in the future, you are gonna have to do it yourself.
JMHO
Keith
I assume full responsibility for my actions, except
the ones that are someone else's fault.
posted on January 13, 2001 11:47:04 PM
Thanks for the info, Mark!
You could count on my loyalty for much longer and would see my usage of AW increase dramatically if I could post to sites besides the big 3!!
Maybe if you have revenue coming in from the users you'll be able to offer the option of listing on other sites .. even if it's not as 'automated'. I need a place to 'store' my ready-to-go auctions to be uploaded, to be held for relist later or after revision, and to load up a 'bunch' to launch in batches.
Since I don't list many of my auctions on ebay yahoo or amazon, I can't use AW for 95% of my auctions!
Just some thoughts!
________
I have a memory like a steel trap .. unfortunately it's rusted shut!
posted on January 14, 2001 02:40:48 AM
Fees on Ebay (Listing & FVF), Fees on Yahoo, Fees for Payment services, etc, etc. If AW starts charging for hosting I'm out of here. I need to make some profit, so I have to keep as many hands as possible out of my pocket as possible.
posted on January 14, 2001 07:16:42 PM
Niall/etc..
I also read f'ed company.com and I'm an avid internet investor (private and public companies). I've decided to use another service (that charges 3%)for my items because I think they will be around for the long haul vs. AW. I usually lurk here, but decided to finally jump into this topic as i think i can shed some light on AW's 'business' model.
Here's my analysis of the AW biz model and why I think they are going to go splat soon->
1. The other service just bought another big player that leads in counters(ytsenoh backwards) and rolled out unique pricing there. And they have been charging from day one which is much easier than being free then charging. AW only gets revenue from banner ads and a book which I can find.
2. AW got $27m in June 00. I heard through a bay area source that the AW investors are NOT happy with AW's progress. Also, one of their biggest and early investors is the Venture arm of CMGI which is closing companies left and right!
3. I also have heard that AW has 150 people on the payroll. The avg cost per person in the bay area is $150k/yr so AW 'burns' close to $2m in people alone per month.
4. In most startups, people are 60-70% of costs, so that means they are totally burning $3-4m/month. (marketing, rent, and other fees add up in these companies)
5. 3m/month with $27m = 9 months. July, August, Sept, Oct, Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb, March (9)
6. mark says they have 200 servers. Let's be conservative and say they spent 4-8m on this.
Conclusion: AW will run out of money by March, possibly sooner. With 30 days notice - the fees should be announced around mid to late feb (save this message and read it in march to see if i was right...)
As an aside, I had a call from a Pat Metcalf at AW in Nov trying to get me to stop using the service I'm using. He told me that in early 01 AW would be charging a 2% success fee and a posting/image fee of fifteen cents.
I never signed an nda so I do not feel bad letting the AW users here know as they have a right to know that
Finally, isn't anyone concerned that other companies have exclusive deals with ebay and AW doesn't? seems like they have an anti-ebay view and from the looks of it, ebay will be the only game in town soon... Will *you* pay for yahoo listing fees?
Sorry this was so long, got on a roll - am i the only one here that sees this?
posted on January 14, 2001 07:59:37 PM
I would hate to see your predictions come true, xeno.
There is a soft spot in my heart for AW. At least, I was there to watch it develop and grow.
But I am prepared to move on if it comes to that. I do have an FTP program, and have used it in times of emergency. There are also other places...Some offer two types of service: a premium, with a small fee, and a free, with a {generous} time limit on the longevity of your pics.
I personally have never used a listing software, cuz I am too dumb. I found it easier to learn some HTML - and more fun too..
But no! The world will not fall apart if AW should have to close...I just hope they don't
******** Gosh Shosh!
posted on January 14, 2001 08:36:08 PM
Betcha it's gonna come as a surprise to the Moderators, clerks, secretaries, etc. at AW to find out they're making a six-figure salary.
posted on January 14, 2001 08:45:46 PMjada Of course the Moderators make six figures - there's just a decimal point in there a couple of places from the right...
posted on January 14, 2001 08:52:32 PM
hello mark!
aw is the best thing going. every question i have had has been answered quickly, the people are nice and professional, it runs smooth and seldom has problems. i would remain loyal but do hope the fees for small time dealers would be affordable. ebay is taking their lions share already. and i do believe if any one could give ebay a run for its money as an auction sight it would be aw if you ever go that direction. i believe aw has a stronger sense of what sellers need to stay in business. i have felt secure with aw from the beginning, something very rare online. you are the best at what you do. this message board is proof of that! just reading your reply said it all...a real person.wow....
First of all, thanks for making such a wonderful product available free for my use. Before AW I was using Blackthorne and found it tied up so much of my hard drive I was constantly having to delete things just to continue operating (I even deleted my sound card - sigh...) The worst part was the continual updates of stuff I never used!
The discussion boards are priceless - I have learned an incredible amount in the time I have been lurking around them.
Someday you may have to charge. I hope you will find a way not to have to but if it becomes necessary we will all just have to pay - or move on.
Now, isn't there a way you can partner with sites to gain funds another way?
No matter what happens, Mark, I would like to thank you for the wonderful job you and your staff are doing. It has made my life sooo much easier.
Best wishes to you - you're probably gonna need it when your staff reads what they should be making! lol .....
posted on January 14, 2001 08:58:03 PM
I have been a AW user almost as long as I have been an Ebay Seller/Power Seller and I'm usually pretty happy(about 75%) with AW's service and stability.
I have to say though, I too cannot afford to have anymore "hands dipped in the pot" so to speak. I have used other services and will choose to do so if AW should start to charge for their services. My hope is that there will always be another free service around the corner......
posted on January 14, 2001 09:15:32 PM
I suspect there will always be another "free" service around the corner. It's a very simple marketing ploy to gain market share for startup companies...
Having said that, anyone ever wonder why Microsoft doesn't give away their software for free?
xenotoys, an interesting hypothesis you've got there. Fortunately for us it's just that though, a hypothesis. I'm happy to say you're way off base. AW will be here for quite some time to come, I assure you.
AuctionWatch.com is not anti-ebay. We're actually quite fond of eBay, truth be told. We've had our differences, sure, but in the end there's still admiration. Without eBay there would most likely be no AuctionWatch.com.
We will never charge for basic services such as the message boards, news, etc. We will be charging for certain premium services in the future, however. If you derive value from those services I'm sure you'll find our fee structure quite reasonable.
breinhold, mrssantaclaus, thanks for the kinds words. We do try harder at AW, and hope that it shows. Posts like yours really make a difference to the whole team at AW!
posted on January 14, 2001 09:25:25 PM
Yet another fee around the corner....hmmm It's getting to be enough to make me consider stopping the auction business. Pretty soon prices will be padded to cover sooo many fees, that I'll be able to buy my stuff at the local stores, on their clearance racks, etc. I guess the banner at the top of the page isn't making them enough...how about more banners?
posted on January 15, 2001 08:56:52 AM
Wow, it seems like I generated quite a stir. Actually MArk, I used to use your services, and your message boards quite frequently. But your paranoia p*ssed me off when you started deleting messages that mentioned your competitors. It was at that point I felt that your future was shaky. But you seem to have lasted, and more power to you. I am just concerned (as a high volume seller) that any service I commit to will be around for the long haul.
posted on January 15, 2001 09:36:33 AM
Someone needs to put their toys back in the toybox. AW has unfolded a community of it's own that seems to be on the cutting edge of rumors, which would have been posted here already. AW is a fond little place for people with integrity! ...
I read this thread with interest and then was caught my this comment from a moderator:
"We will never charge for basic services such as the message boards, news, etc. We will be charging for certain premium services in the future, however."
Hold it!
What is "etc."
I always understood "premium services" to be PAM. The Auction Managers basic listing of auctions was NOT considered a "Premium Service" the last time it was discussed.
Message Board and News are not what I consider "basic services". These are just frills that we can find elsewhere.
With Paypal charging a fee, eBay charging a fee, Billpoint charging a fee, etc. we are coming VERY close to the point where users will no longer feel these fees are reasonable since they need to me ADDED TOGETHER and deducted from auction profits.
Would AW staff please post a list of what you consider BASIC and what you consider PREMIUM services?
posted on January 15, 2001 10:40:03 AM
I use AW and honesty. Each has advantages and disadvantages.
Honesty has been charging for some of their new features which I don't use because I don't want to pay anymore fees than I have to. So far AW hasn't charged for any of the features but I predict they will someday. If they do I will avoid those fees as well.
When/if BIN becomes a fee I will avoid that as well.
posted on January 15, 2001 11:02:11 AM
Wow. First of all let me say that I bet the AW powers-that-be are just hating this thread. To their everlasting credit, they are letting it continue, which I think is fantastic. I repeat that whatever you guys end up charging, I will probably pay. I've been close to 100% happy with your service.
The reason why I believe the powers that be are hating this thread is that we're basically dancing around the edges of something that's very critical for them. They are funded through CMGI? I didn't know that before, but now that I do I'm even more concerned. For those of you that don't know, that's a big venture capital group (among other things) that finances dot coms....they are currently withdrawing capital or withholding additional capital from many of the dot coms they have funded, because the companies are not reaching profitability in time, or don't appear to have profitability on the horizon. If AW really is a CMGI funded company (I'll check on FC.com) I wonder how much pressure they are under to either slow their burn rate or find a new source of funding....OR get profitable. It has nothing to do with AW itself. Even if they were the most popular site on the planet, in today's marketplace, if they want to stay alive and get more money from the funders, they have to get profitable or show a clear path to profitability. They probably HATE the very idea of charging, but how else are they going to become profitable?
They are in a real bind, if that's their situation. I am 100% sure they already know that sellers are overloaded with fees and irate at the very idea of AW having ANY charges. But when some guy in a suit and tie at CMGI calls and asks for the numbers, they don't have much choice do they? Without funding, a non-profitable dot com just folds and closes. I've worked for a defunct dot com and seen the game. I don't blame AW for needing to deny it....that's part of the whole scheme. Typically dot com workers don't even know their company is broke until they're handed a pink slip and shown the door. This is the New Economy--unfortunately. What runs like clockwork one day can be shut down and sold for pennies on the dollar the next day, simply because the venture capitalists got tired of waiting for a very worthy,very beloved company get into the black. Even huge businesses like Amazon aren't immune. People think Amazon is an institution like Sears or Denny's or McDonald's---they imagine it could never go belly-up overnight. But it could and it will, if it doesn't get profitable---faster than you could dream of.
"Basic services" are the ones that don't make you any money. It's clear to me (and understandable) that they will be charging for any services that directly contribute to you making money, such as picture hosting or launching. It's obvious. The days of free rides have ended, not just for AW but for the Internet. Notice how many free ISPs have gone under? How many services that started out free started charging, and then folded a few months later? It's an incredibly difficult business model to do successfully (transition from free to pay) because people (understandably) look at it with a sense of entitlement----it was free, it should always be free. When in reality it was free for a short sweet time as a perk, and then moved into a more realistic pay-per-use mode.
Will you still use services that aren't free? I will, but I know many people won't.
I sympathize with you AW...it ain't gonna be easy and nobody is going to be happy, but you gotta survive. Good luck.
That's the fine line all of these services have to walk. I will pay for services for which there are no affordable alternatives.
I can host my own pictures on my own web space (the space included in my monthly ISP bill-- basically a 'freebie'), I can build my own auctions and keep them in inventory with low-cost or no-cost software.
I can continue to send out standardized EOAs and track payments, etc. through eBud, which will charge a set, predictable annual licensing fee.
On the other hand, I like the ability to launch auctions from any computer, anywhere.
Fee time will be decision time for a lot of us. It's probably best to prepare by brushing up on some skills -- and being prepared to take a hard look at the pros, cons and individual bottom line when the time comes.
A user can create MOST of the services offered by AuctionWatch for free, so why pay?
Form e-mails, setting up auctions, hosting photos, etc. can be found free elsewhere and I can use "My eBay" to see what I am selling, what has ended, etc.
AW isn't Paypal, it isn't Billpoint. I can't duplicate those online payment services, I CAN do most of the stuff AW does on my own or with cheap software.
Sure, AMPro is slick and I like this site and it's features, but I don't have to pay for them when I can do it myself.
That much alone could kill AW when they start charging and users start walking.
posted on January 15, 2001 01:31:20 PM
I'm not going to sweat it. I only use image hosting and can go to any number of places free, including ebay. If they said, we'll charge a flat rate of $5 for 1000 images I may consider it if all my other choices are exhausted.
Eventually any site still remaining after this online bloodbath will have to compete on costs and many sites will be knocked out of round two.
I think AW has garnered a loyal bunch so it can survive, IF they have enough money to last them. They probably have enough ad revenue to keep them afloat, because the news/message boards will keep us coming back no matter what. Profit is the problem. They do have a mighty challenge ahead. Good Luck AW!
[ edited by quickdraw29 on Jan 15, 2001 01:35 PM ]
posted on January 16, 2001 05:37:46 PM
ryinn - keen observation, premium is in the eyes of the beholder. Think like a business person. If message boards are where 99% of your users are, give them 10 free posts and then make 10+ posts premium... Isn't this basically what paypal did?
Brighid868, I'm glad someone else understands the seriousness of the CMGI connection.
Here's the press release where I found that a large chunk of AW is owned by CMGI's VC arm - @ventures->
http://www.auctionwatch.com/company/pr/pr1.html
You're right, CMGI has pulled the plug on engage (layed off 100's of folks), some istream thing (closed that one completely) and altavista (layed off 30% plus).
Quickdraw - there's absolutely no way AW can survive on the banner ads you see at the top of the page. Have you ever clicked on one of them? Advertisers are starting to realize (even on yahoo!) that these things are useless and users like us just ignore them, so the demand goes down, supply is up and price drops like a rock.
I posted a new thread: how much would you pay for AW, check it out and cast your vote.
Xeno
posted on January 16, 2001 06:13:42 PM
Xenotoys, AuctionWatch.com has accepted funding from CMGI @ventures, and we're happy to have them invest. We are, however, not a CMGI owned company. There's a distinction there- don't be lost on it. CMGI isn't capable of withdrawing their funding from us. There is no "seriousness of the CMGI connection." They are an investor amongst many: TCV, MeVC, Sequoia.
I appreciate your concern for our business, xenotoys, but AW is doing just fine.
It takes a tremendous amount of dedication, work and cash to keep a .com online and reliable.
