posted on September 6, 2000 06:40:12 PM
I had written on this board about two weeks ago regarding a problem with a shipment sent via UPS to Canada. Here is a a brief overview:
Item was shipped via UPS (of which I was unaware). When it was delivered UPS wanted to charge me $32. I was told by the delivery man that if I refused it would be sent back to the seller and they could resend it. When the seller received it, damage had been done to all the products and they asked me what I thought they should do. That is why I came here. Here is the link to the old thread: http://www.auctionwatch.com/mesg/read.html?num=2&id=241520&thread=241505
Now this is my new problem:
I had emailed the seller on August 25th stating (from what I had been told) that the UPS insured items up to $100. The seller wrote saying they would check into this. Again, I had heard nothing from them up to this date so today I wrote to inquire about the status of the items...I received this email:
hi this is XXXXX.UPS said they do not cover damage done at the border and i
can not reimburse you for the XXXXX being that they are broken. I told you
that i would not be responsible for mailing internationally . i am sorry
about this mess. thanks, XXXX
Now, just to clarify, I had written before bidding asking if they would ship to Canada and this was the reply (sorry for the caps - I just cut & pasted their email):
YES I WOULD BE WILLING TO SEND XXXXX TO YOU JUST MAKE PAYMENT IN THE
FORM OF CERTIFIED FUNDS US CURRENCY. THANK YOU FOR YOUR INTEREST
Nothing was mentioned in any of the emails from them about 'responsiblity for mailing internationally' but even so, right now they have both the items I won and my $36 (which was sent in the form of certified funds)!
I don't know what I should do now...please help! Any suggestions??
posted on September 6, 2000 07:47:04 PM
Why don't you go to the UPS website (www.ups.com) and check out whether or not they will pay for international shipments? I know they insure for $100 inside the US, but I'm not sure about Canada. Your other option to recoup some of your loss is to file for insurance, you won't get much, there is a $25.00 deductible and it doesn't cover shipping costs, but since the seller agreed to ship it to you, IMO you are entitled to an undamaged product. I would definitely leave neg fb for the seller, if he's not willing to get the item to you, he shouldn't sell internationally.
posted on September 6, 2000 09:41:02 PM
I disagree the seller does not deserve a negative feedback,they fulfilled their end of the deal.They got the payment and sent the item,they the seller had no idea that the buyer would refuse shipment due to the additional USPS charge.
Probably this is there first time shipping international and they are not familiar with USPS additional charge.
It's a shame this happened as someone will loose either way.They buyer stuck with a broken product,or no refund and product or a seller with a broken product and a refund.
Probably the seller will not ship international again.
I am afraid that you are wrong. By law, the seller is responsible to get the item to the bidder. It doesn't matter if you agree or not. This is the way that it is.
UPS does insure to Canada. Go to www.ups.com I found the info there.
So far the seller hasn't delivered the goods, and had left the bidder with the problem. Here is what I suggest:
Go to ebay and report the seller for non-delivery of items. If the seller doesn't refund your money or ship replacements, they have committed FRAUD.
Next, go to the Internet Fraud Complaint Center at https://www.ifccfbi.gov/
and report the seller. This site is part of the FBI (Federal Bureau of Investigation) and they track all kinds of internet fraud, including sellers who don't deliver the goods. They also work with local police departments to prosecute internet fraud. They will help you out. Many sellers think they can get away with just about anything if the bidder is in another country. This site will do the work for you!
I would even send an email to the seller outlining what you are going to do. Give them the Internet Fraud Complaint Center's web site address, so they know you are serious.
I don't understand why there are so many sellers who feel that once they drop something in the mail they are off the hook.
If you sell online Imibrit, you had better get the facts!
Read the whole post, the items were returned by they buyer, refused to pay the "customs" charge! You cannot send an item overseas with out paying the full cost of shipping in advance. Unless COD UPS or USPS.
I bet because the seller did not want to lie, saying he was sending this stranger a gift, the customs charged a tax, that the buyer knew about, and failed to tell the seller. Also the items were damaged on the return, not the sellers fault.
posted on September 6, 2000 11:15:29 PMthe items were returned by they buyer
Not if we take the story at face value. Buyer refused to pay the brokerage fee, a crud fee assessed by UPS, and not assessed by the USPS. (and not to be confused with customs, which might be crud, but they aren't a matter of choice, and more importantly, they legally are the liability of buyer, not the seller).
I'm not aware of any directly relevant cases, but here's an analysis.
Once having taken money and agreeing to ship to Canada, seller was responsible to get the stuff to buyer. Presumably seller did not know of the UPS brokerage fee; however, this fee was a condition of delivery by the delivery service selected by seller to carry out the responsibility of getting the stuff to buyer. This could of course have been negotiated. "Buyer to pay $25 plus any brokerage fee". This however was not done, and, legally, buyer was not obligated as part of this agreement to pay that brokerage fee. It was very much as if seller took buyer's money for full shipping but then selected a shipping service which tried to COD additional shipping charges.
Current state: seller still responsible to deliver the stuff in the condition described, or renegotiate if that's no longer possible.
posted on September 6, 2000 11:20:35 PM
Whoa! Whoa! Whoa!
If you read the whole thread you will notice that I am quite used to paying what I rightfully should - customs charges, GST, PST etc...(I just paid customs a total of $34 the other day for three parcels - some of which were 'valued' way above what I had actually paid - which is a whole other thread). I have never asked someone to lie on a customs form - and I really don't appreciate your assumption that I would! That is not how I work things.
This was sent via UPS which charges a ridiculous 'brokerage fee' - this is why I refused it - it has nothing to do with the normal customs duty & tax charge that I am used to paying when items are sent via USPS. If you read the previous thread I stated that it was never discussed as to how the item would be sent.
Do you honestly think I should be out both my money and the items I won? Is that fair??
Lets get some facts here! One fact that i know of. Customs Taxes can be very high!, As I sold retail in Seattle, and many buyers in Canada beged for a lower receipt, Second, the contract you make with UPS allows opening of the package for any inspection, also if there is a delivery surcharge over the cost you pay, you are warned. It is the buyers responcibilty to know the taxes, customs, and funny charges, that they might have when they purchase out of the country. Not the sellers.
So Mr Buyer, just what did you buy. Did you ask the seller to under value the item? Lets get some facts here, as we may have a seller that did what the buyer told him to do.
posted on September 6, 2000 11:42:18 PM
Thank you sg52,
I think people here are getting customs fee mixed up with the brokrage fee - we are talking about UPS not USPS.
I have shipped items overseas, and in one case I didn't plug in the right info when calculating the costs with USPS. I told the bidder shipping would be XX amount of dollars. When I went to the post office, I had made a mistake and the shipping was almost double. I did what any honest seller would do: I shipped the items and ate the fee.
One thing people are overlooking here: The seller said that UPS does not insure to Canada, and this is not true. Regardless of the fact that the package was refused and returned to the seller the insurance should cover the damage. It's right there bright as day on the website www.ups.com. It even has a special link for Canada info.
If you must know (and btw, it is Ms. Buyer) it was some toys that I collect from my childhood - in fact one of the items was something that my mother gave away 21 years ago and I have been searcing for it ever since. I don't know if I can be more specific about what it actually was due to the CG.
Since you asked for some 'facts'...
I will repeat myself and by saying I did not ask the seller to lie on the customs form! Yes, Custom Taxes are very high but I have never asked anyone to do such a thing as fudge a customs sticker just to save me from paying the customs charge - please do not presume to know what I 'asked' this or any seller to do.
The item was sent via UPS - I was unaware of this until the UPS man knocked on my door and asked for more money (there was no contact between the seller and myself after I had notified them that payment was sent). When items are sent USPS you are normally charged duty & tax of $5 + 14% of the goods value - customs charges that I know I am responsible for paying - but this 'brokerage fee' was a surprise and well above what I would have ever expected to pay.
Now, please answer my question...
Do you honestly think it's fair that I am out both my money and the items I won? What would you suggest I do?
The fees imposed by UPS have nothing to do with Customs. They charge an outrageous fee for "International Brokerage" when shipping across the border.
If a seller is going to be using a shipping service such as UPS they should be well aware of the additional fees associated with such a service & let the International customer know what to expect in advance. Anything less than that is unacceptable IMO.
Equestrian
If the seller fails to make good on the insurance I would neg them & contact eBay.
Perhaps if you let them know in advance what you are planning on doing they'll have a sudden change of heart?
posted on September 7, 2000 02:27:20 AM
Equistrian,
In the seller's TOS, did it state that they would ship to Canada? Did you ask the seller to make an exception and ship to you? I've had bidders contact me and ask me to make an exception and ship to their country. I've told them I would on the condition that they walk me through the process.
I'm sorry that this transaction was so disappointing. Most sellers that limit their auctions to the United States do it because they don't know the requirements for shippping internationally -- or the different shipping methods available.
It is regrettable that you paid for something that is now worthless. Do you think the seller was totally at fault?
posted on September 7, 2000 03:19:20 AM
In my TOS I state a shipping and insurance rate clearly. Then I say and International Order are always welcome but please allow additional time to find exact charges after auction close. I don't often have this occur but when I do I have never had a problem. When I mail my EOA notice I give it fully as I expect to send within US. Then I say if you are an International Bidder please send address and tell them I will pack the item and address it and find all fess applicable. I do so and ask outright all charges to mail the package....and ask for difference in options. I then email the people to tell them and let them choose. My international bidders have been more then pleased to know they pay exact charges an I have gone a little out of the way for them. I have often received even an extra $5.00 for any trouble I have gone through.
IMO The SELLER COMPLETED the transaction and went OUT OF HIS WAY to complete the deal by geting the item(s) to the buyers front door. If the buyer refused and it was sent back the seller has incurred further fees. I would tell you to get the original amount with shipping and handling and insurance and ALL FEES that I have incurred along with the additional expenses I will incurr back to you. I would also tell you to get it to me within 30 days or I will dispose of the item(s) as I see fit.
By law a person holding on to someone elses belongings is only responsible to make a MINIMAL ATTEMPT to get the items back to the owner. The person can also expect a reimbursement for incurred expenses. (When you sent the payment and the seller accepted it by cashing it it then becomes YOUR PROPERTY). With a thirty day notice given by the person who has the item in their hands it then becomes theirs to do with as they want....in this case the seller should RESELL THE ITEMS TO GET THEIR EXPENSES BACK.
You should not give a NEG as it was you who made the decision to refuse shipment. I think now you regret it and want a sympathy party and are trying to invite as many people as you can. Pay the person all owed fees that they have incurred and pay all the new fees they are going to have to pay to get it back to you. Get off the high horse you seem to be sitting on and do what is right and get it past you. If you know all these fees and expenses from USPS and UPS why didnt you insure it was coming by the way you wanted it to.
posted on September 7, 2000 05:05:30 AM
Equestrian,
Boy this must be frustrating for you! If your final bid was over $25 and you are unable to work out an acceptable refund, I would begin the process of filing an insurance claim, by registering your complaint, through eBay. This will give you an additional 30 days to resolve your dispute and the seller may take your loss more seriously.
Furthermore, I also believe that the package WAS actually insured for up to $100. I suggest you call your local UPS branch and verify this for yourself, then re e-mail the seller that you confirmed with UPS that "shipments are automatically protected against loss or damage up to $100" as stated on their web site. Therefore, he should be able to process his claim and refund your money. Also, you should notify him you intend to file an insurance claim through eBay if you do not receive an acceptable refund.
If he agrees to refund but it is not received before 60 days past the auction end, I would go ahead and file the complaint (it must be filed within 60 days of the auction's close), because it can always be cancelled after 30 days if the refund is received.
Was the seller shocked to find out that UPS required you to pay an additional $32? As a seller I would be quite upset with UPS if they did not notify me they would be charging my customer this additional fee.
Then I would be livid when they return the package I wrapped with great care damaged.
Hope everything works out both for you and the seller.
posted on September 7, 2000 05:16:48 AMThis was sent via UPS which charges a ridiculous 'brokerage fee' - this is why I refused it - it has nothing to do with the normal customs duty & tax charge that I am used to paying when items are sent via USPS. If you read the previous thread I stated that it was never discussed as to how the item would be sent.
YOU are the one who asked the seller to ship to Canada. YOU are the buyer who makes purchases from US sellers, and should therefore be familiar with the UPS Customs charge. I seriously doubt that the seller would have known this if he wasn't in the habit of shipping to Canada. Therefore, YOU should have asked him, in the same email in which YOU asked him to ship to Canada, not to use UPS.
Seller is in the right. Buyer is in the wrong. Seller delivered the goods. You refused the goods. End of story.
posted on September 7, 2000 05:19:47 AMIf a seller is going to be using a shipping service such as UPS they should be well aware of the additional fees associated with such a service & let the International customer know what to expect in advance. Anything less than that is unacceptable IMO.
Completely incorrect as explained in my last post.
posted on September 7, 2000 05:22:26 AM
So what did the seller do here that was so extraordinary?!?!? Oh, blessed be the seller who sooooooo goes out of their way to ship internationally, and how dare an overseas customer complain when an extra $32 charge is accessed for shipping via UPS rather than the good ole USPS. We should all aim to be as ignorant of shipping charges as this seller was, blithely believing "we are right, they are wrong" and resell the item if we don't complete the transaction to the buyer's satisfaction. Oh, and don't refund their $36 because "I told you
that i would not be responsible for mailing internationally" and then doing so anyway. What bull!!! The seller was responsible to ship the item for the price in which they quoted. PERIOD. If they had a brain in their head, they would know about UPS's charge or at the very least mentioned to the buyer that this was the method of shipping they -- the seller-- had chosen to use, and this would be the additional cost. The buyer is completely justified in not only expecting their purchase to be sent safely and for a reasonable price, but also to be notified of exactly by what method and when it was shipped.
I'm with reddeer on this: if they don't make good on the insurance, neg them. Ignorance is not an excuse for poor service.
posted on September 7, 2000 05:30:06 AM
equestrian,
Do you honestly think it's fair that I am out both my money and the items I won?
No, but I don't think it's fair that the seller safely delivered the items to you, which you then refused which has now resulted in the seller having damaged merchandise returned to them AND you want YOUR money back.
IF getting items delivered via UPS is going to result in additional costs to you, ASK BEFORE you buy if the seller uses UPS.
Now, if this seller is unaware that UPS charges a brokerage fee to the buyer upon delivery, they are probably unaware they can file for insurance on it. Send them to the UPS site & hopefully it will work out for both of you.
This doesn't appear to be anywhere near "fraud" just a seller who went initially out of his/her way to accomodate an international customer, now is stuck with broken merchandise & may be terribly confused which way to proceed.
I would hold off on the negs hoping to resolve this because you bear as much responsibility in this being not completed as the seller.
posted on September 7, 2000 05:31:48 AMIf they had a brain in their head, they would know about UPS's charge or at the very least mentioned to the buyer that this was the method of shipping they -- the seller-- had chosen to use, and this would be the additional cost.
Again. Completely incorrect. The BUYER is the one that asked the seller to ship to Canada. The BUYER is the one who should have known about the extra UPS charge because, duh! buyer lives in Canada and presumably completes deals with other US sellers. The BUYER should have simply stated:
"Thanks for making an exception to your TOS and shipping to me. I have one request however: Please don't ship by UPS as they have a rather large fee tacked on to each transaction."
Ver easy to do. Very logical to do when the buyer knows that the seller doesn't routinely ship to Canada. Seller completed the deal. Buyer didn't. Again, end of story.
Edited to add: And to even consider giving the seller a negative in light of the facts is simply unbelievable!
[ edited by abingdoncomputers on Sep 7, 2000 05:34 AM ]
posted on September 7, 2000 05:33:45 AM
athena1365,
Hogwash
As an international seller, I have the responsibility to ship items to my buyers for the amount they paid. I do NOT have the responsibility to know each & every tax which may be levied on any item shipped into a country.
The seller DID ship the item for the price quoted...since when does a seller have to include the costs of any country's GST, custom's, etc. in the shipping cost of an item?
posted on September 7, 2000 06:21:22 AM
Cutting through all the rhetoric regarding who is right or wrong the seller has the buyers money and the broken merchandise. The buyer has nothing and is entitled to a refund be it from an ebay insurance claim or the sellers good business dealings.
posted on September 7, 2000 06:27:26 AMCutting through all the rhetoric regarding who is right or wrong the seller has the buyers money and the broken merchandise. The buyer has nothing and is entitled to a refund be it from an ebay insurance claim or the sellers good business dealings.
Why should the seller refund? He shipped the item in good condition. It presumably arrived in good condition. The buyer refused the package. At that point, the seller has fulfilled his end of the transaction. If the buyer asks for a refund, the buyer deserves a neg. And I RARELY advocate giving negs.
posted on September 7, 2000 06:32:27 AM
I am going to send everyone that posted in this thread a BRAND NEW - US MINT $50 BILL!!!
If you could only please send me $1.35 for shipping (for the stamp and the card I will put the $50 in, I don't want to be accused of making money off my shipping charges.
However, Just to let you know ahead of time, the post office has decided to start paying their employees by the piece instead of an hourly wage. Even more, they've decided to save money and lower the national debt that the receipients of the mail should pay the postal employees....therefore:
You will have to pay:
The guy who sells me the stamp $5;
The guy that picks the envelope up from my mailbox $5;
The guy who unloads in from the mail jeep $5;
The guy inside that puts it in the "out-of-town" bin $5;
The guy who sorts it to your home state $5;
The guy who loads it from the bin in to the truck $5
The truck driver deserves his $5 too;
The guy who unloads it in your home state $5;
The guy who walks by and picks it up off the floor and hands it back to the last guy $5;
The guy who loads it in the bin for your hometown $5;
the guy who rolls the bin across the floor to the loading dock $5;
Tne guy who loads the bin in the truck to go to your hometown $5;
This truck driver deserves his $5 too;
The guy in your hometown that unloads the truck $5;
The guy who sorts it to your mailperson $5
Your mailperson $5
Now, I don't legally have to tell you any of the above because they are not My charges, they are handeling fees from the post office, all I am getting is the $1.35 for my shipping costs.
Anyone want me to send them $50?
And BTW all of the above aformentioned individuals will be at your door to deliver the $50 bill and receive their payment for their services.
[ edited by cdangel0 on Sep 7, 2000 06:40 AM ]
posted on September 7, 2000 06:40:08 AM
sg52 - nice post - you've hit the nail right on the head!
kellyb1 - "I think people here are getting customs fee mixed up with the brokrage fee - we are talking about UPS not USPS."
Also, Spot On! That brokerage fee has nothing to do with customs, taxes, duties, or any other legitimate charge. It is simply GRAFT tacked on by UPS. Unfortunately, many buyers are not aware of this, and also, just as unfortunately, neither are many sellers.
The folks involved in this unfortunate deal have learned the hard way. But, pass it on: DO NOT SHIP INTERNATIONAL VIA UPS!
[Attention UPS CyberCops - If you are reading this, and if you have a problem with my statement, kindly post your justification for this GRAFT]
edhdsn - is not a customs tax, but rather a government tax. Customs only collect it (and we pay an extra $5.00 to them for this 'priviledge'!). Everything in Canada, including services like shipping and handling is subjected to a 7% tax (GST). On top of that, individual provinces also charge their provincial tax (PST). In Manitoba, where I am, I have to pay 7% plus another 7% for this stuff.
Indicating 'gift' is simply a signal to the customs guys that you are trying to beat these taxes. Besides, gift or not, we get taxed on anything with a declared value of over $20.00 US (or very close to that).
The problem with declaring a lower value is that if the article goes missing and you are able to get insurance, all you will get is the declared value, less any deductible.
My advice:
- declare the actual value of the item only (don't include your S&H charges - we don't want to pay tax on that, and don't inflate the value 'thinking' your item was worth more than you got for it)
- don't declare it as a gift (unless it really is)
I am certainly not a lover of taxes or all of the stupid rules, but, I do like to get the items I paid for without a customs hassle (or UPS GRAFT).
equestrian - what a shame you didn't get that toy you wanted so badly. I sincerely hope you find another one - I know your agony
posted on September 7, 2000 06:53:35 AM
Reddeer -
"If a seller is going to be using a shipping service such as UPS they should be well aware of the additional fees associated with such a service & let the International customer know what to expect in advance."
The web-based calculator at i-SHIP DOES NOT MENTION the charge (because the shipper does not pay), and most clerks don't know about it either.
If buying from a foreign country, you should check out what will happen on your side of the border.
posted on September 7, 2000 06:54:36 AM
If this was my transaction I would probably split the loss with the seller 50/50 just keep them happy.That way be both take part of the loss but I doubt I would ever ship international again as it would turn me off.
However I am very familiar with international sales and over the years have shipped just about to every country there is.
Some that even suprise me,I had a guy one time bid on a map while he was in the mountains of Borneo and did it via satellite.
I also do not ship USPS for the reason's mentioned only way I found this out was because buyers told me such.
But I have shipment from all over Europe sent by both Fedex and USPS that have come with a 30.00 brokerage.I do not like it,but I pay as the seller sent me the items for the agreed shipping cost we set.Though I had no idea it would be shipped that way.I did not complain to the seller I just accepted it as fact.
I think though that USPS and FEDEX should tell this up front that total shipping costs will be blah blah.
Still the seller DOES NOT DESERVE A NEG,they shipped the item as agreed,it is not there fault that the buyer refused it.
How then was the seller going to get there refund on the origional shipping from USPS.Would they have refunded it too the seller.I do not think they would,so then the seller has to re-send again out of their own pocket.
The UPS "Brokerage Fee" has NOTHING to do with Canada OR U.S. Customs OR Duty.
Zip-Zilch-Nada.
UPS might as well call it a "Handling Fee".
Again, as the seller shipping the item & "choosing" to use such a shipper, you best know in advance what kind of shipping fees your customer is going to be expecting at their end.
Let's try turning the tables for a moment.
If I was to ship a $400 antique to a high bidder in the U.S. [no mention of UPS in my TOS] via UPS, and the high bidder ended up with a $60.00 "Brokerage Fee", plus State Tax, etc-etc, what you say then?
Should the high bidder just "suck it up" knowing that had I used Canada Post/USPS that an item over 100 yrs old is Duty Free with no State Taxes etc? Should they have asked what shipper I used in advance?
Should they leave me a neg when I say
"too bad - so sad"?
Hmmmmm. One can only wonder what that thread would have read like.
posted on September 7, 2000 07:50:04 AM
This is what happens when perhaps neither the Seller or Buyer have gone to the trouble to accumulate the facts IN ADVANCE of completing a transaction.
I have shipped overseas twice so far, and each time asked the buyers to "guide me" through the paperwork steps, since I was new at it. They were both kind enough to do so, and the items arrived promptly.
posted on September 7, 2000 08:01:37 AM
This is really very simple. The bidder asked the seller to make an exception to his TOS and sell (ship) to him in Canada. Seller was nice enough to do that. And yes, "nice enough" IS the correct wording IMO, because the seller could have said "No way!".
The bidder knew that the seller wasn't used to selling internationally. The bidder knew the facts. The seller didn't. Does this make the seller a bad seller? No. The seller was doing the bidder a favor. The bidder should have informed the seller about the added charge by UPS. If I do a favor for someone, I would reasonably expect them to inform me of this happening with UPS. I shouldn't be expected to research all of the possible problems associated with accomodating a request that I make an exception to my TOS, especially when the bidder (Canadian) should be familiar with transactions involving his home country.
And some people have a hard time understanding why some sellers hesitate to ship internationally. Well, I sincerely doubt that THIS seller will ever ship ANYTHING internationally again. This bidder deserves a neg.
