posted on September 7, 2000 03:11:44 PM
Albeit another one that says nothing ...
Background
I had an auction canceled by eBay. They told me my item (video tapes) was a copyright infringement. They didn't investigate, but rather simply took the word of another eBay user.
I offered to provide proof that I have the copyright holder's permission to sell the tapes.
My tapes were not studio released tapes, Emmy screeners, or any other type of promotional tapes.
According to eBay written policy which states, in part: "Sale or distribution of "awards" videos, such as Academy Awards or Emmy Awards promotional "screeners," is considered by movie and television studios to be a copyright infringement."
When I questioned why eBay canceled my auction, which does not fit into this category, yet they allow over 300 auctions for Emmy tapes to proceed (that are DIRECTLY referenced in their rules and are considered by the studios to be copyright infringement), here's what SafeHarbour had to say:
Thanks for your letter.
eBay policy does not specifically prohibit the listing of Emmy Consideration items, but you should be aware that the listing of many
such items is a copyright infringement.
It is true that many copyright owners don't enforce their rights in this area. For example, promo CDs can be found in used CD stores with some regularity. However, it is still an infringement to sell them and many
copyright owners do care and enforce in this area. Listing such items could result in the ending of an auction if a member of our Verified Rights Owner (VeRO) Program reports the items as infringing their rights.
We understand your concern about the other items. We do review all items that are reported to us and a determination is made on whether the item is in violation of our policies. However, since we do not actively
monitor our site for questionable or prohibited items, we rely on our members to report them to us.
When a violation has been committed we will take the appropriate action for that item. There will be times when offenders will slip by because they have not been reported to us. Please note that even if some sellers
are currently in violation of eBay guidelines this does not lessen the seriousness of the violations for those sellers whose auctions have been reported to us.
If you are aware of an item that violates our policies please feel free to report it by going to the Community Watch Report page. The URL has been included below for your convenience:
I do hope this has helped address all your questions, but if you require any clarification or have any follow-up questions, please don't hesitate to write again.
Regards,
eBay Community Watch Team
Now, my listing was not canceled by VeRO, but by a another member who was offering a competing product. His went right to the end, by the way, and he got some major bucks for it.
Is this eBay a company that anyone really wants to deal with? Their rules seem to change from one auction to another. In this case, I figure they had no problem canceling my auction as their revenue in listing and selling fees would be minimul. On the other hand, if they canceled the 300+ auctions that are in DIRECT violation of both the studio (copyright holder) AND eBay written policy, they would lose a pile of dough.
Anyone want to help me draft a response? I am so livid right now that my mind can't think straight
posted on September 7, 2000 03:48:11 PM
eBay has never hurt any of my auctions, except for outages and slowdowns, but never from policy. Then again, I stay away from controversial goods, simply because of the implied risks outweight the benefits; such as, a high profit margin vs. getting your auction canceled at the wrong time.
I guess some folks are just higher risk-takers than I am. I don't make much profit, but I also avoid all the hassles as well.
posted on September 7, 2000 03:48:43 PM
"Now, my listing was not canceled by VeRO, but by a another member who was offering a competing product. His went right to the end, by the way, and he got some major bucks for it."
~ ~ ~
If what you claim is accurate, NO way I can help you compose your letter.
Livid, hey?
Well, myself, I just metamorphosed from my typical contentious olde biddy self, into a cantankerous Old HaG as a result of reading your words.
::::sigh::::
There are *things* about cyberspace which are not so very werry g00d for the blood pressure.
Commiserating, but essentially Speechless... and consequently worthless to provide assistance.
posted on September 7, 2000 05:55:19 PM
The answer you got is exactly the same as one I got a few times over 3 years ago.I guess they get good mileage out of their canned responses.
Mine was in regards to a Dutch auction,that would get reported by another seller and mine woulf be shut down.Others would just keep on running and ebaY would do nothing too them.
I fought ebaY over it for 6 months,with phone calls etc,they finally came around and accepted the format that we used.
As a result you can buy a number of items in dutch auction format that would not have been possible a few years ago.
So do as I did just keep pushing it and maybe they will come around.
posted on September 7, 2000 07:52:55 PM
Hello RB. I'm still not certain of the reason for the cancellation of your auction. What rule did you supposedly break?
If this was a copyright problem you can ask for the counter notice form. I have a copy of this form as well as the instructions from eBay if you wish to go this route. Actually, you can use this form if your auction was shutdown due to a complaint from ANYONE, not just VERO, as long as you feel they were in error.
posted on September 7, 2000 07:59:52 PM
My question is how do you know who reported you, eBay does not give you that info and based on that are you 'only assuming' you know or what?
posted on September 7, 2000 08:15:51 PM
How do I know?
EBay advises on their site that there are only two ways an auction may get canceled - either by a VeRO action or via another member making a report through their Community Watch.
I KNOW this wasn't VeRO. The owner of the copyright for my auction is NOT a VeRO member, and I have that owner's written permission to sell the item (with conditions which I followed to a 'T', including the way I worded the description).
By process of elimination, coupled with some very strange things that have been happening to my eBay account over the past few weeks (I have posted about these earler), I have deduced that my auction was canceled by a disgruntled member. EBay will not deny this, not will they give me the name of the slime rat fink that did this to me.
When Emmett (eBay SafeHarbour) contacted me to tell me my account was suspended, it was because I was selling material on eBay that infringes on someone else's copyright - the exact same words that eBay uses in their written policy to disallow the listing of Emmy Consideration tapes - the same tapes that are currently listed in over 300 different items and that eBay happily allows!
bhearsch - thanks for the offer. It doesn't matter what I include in my listing (even a scan of the OK I have to sell the tapes), and it doesn't matter how much I whine to eBay. Even if I was able to convince eBay that I am legit, as soon as that slime rat fink contacts eBay again, my auction gets automatically canceled. No trial, no contact with me, just canceled. In spite of what they say, there is NO INVESTIGATION.
But, they say a lot of things that I am finding out are nothing but pure, unadultrated BS.
I'm not even sure if this is worth pursuing with eBay anymore. Trying to explain something to them is like trying to explain something to a person that can't understand a word of my language. It's like when Bart Simpson talks to his dog - all the dog can hear is "blah, blah, blah". The only way I could convince eBay that they are wrong to allow one member to carry on a vendetta against another member, and they are wrong to allow 300+ auctions to continue that are in direct contravention of their rules and the studio copyrights, would be to visit them in person and shake their brainless little heads.
posted on September 7, 2000 08:39:10 PMRB, there is always that old saying, "What goes around, comes around" (I think that's it) or "What's good for the goose is good for the gander." In other words, why not play his game?
Blanche
edited to add: If someone was causing ME big problems and messing with MY livelihood, I would mess back!! (if all other channels failed)
[ edited by bhearsch on Sep 7, 2000 08:41 PM ]
posted on September 7, 2000 08:41:29 PMRB some opinionionated advice on your situation. Feel free to disregard, of course.
You're losing the battle for focus. You have several sub-arguments going on, and eBay (and to a lesser extent, your AW audience) is missing your main problem for the subthreads.
Figure out what the main problem is. I guess that it's your cancelled auction, but if not, pick that out.
Drop the other arguments, at least until you have the main problem crushed into oblivion.
Whether:
-Emmy screeners are ok
-Any random eBayer can get any other eBayer's auction cancelled
-Your "opponent" is your competition
Don't really matter.
If you want to make progress on why your auction was cancelled (and presumably achieving protection from subsequent cancellations), then focus on why your particular auction was cancelled, and drop the rest of those.
posted on September 7, 2000 09:05:31 PM
sg52 - that would be good advice (and for which I thank you) IF I intended to do any more business on eBay. I don't, so it doesn't matter if I burn any bridges with them.
I am not positive who ratted me out (I have a good idea though) - I cannot do a direct retaliation as I may be attacking the wrong person.
posted on September 7, 2000 09:45:23 PM
I would get together all your related documents and find a lawyer or a good law student to help you draft a letter. I would then proceed to re-auction your stuff with a URL regarding the auction. "If you are eBay go here, if you are trying to get eBay to shut this auction down go here." At the URLs would be your letter(s). "Anyone trying to shut this auction down will face a lawsuit for restraint of free trade and will have to show cause...blah blah or whatever argument seems suitable.
eBay really doesn't want to mess with a seller who will wrestle with them in a court of law. Most of the auctions shut down by eBay would find a sympathetic ear for a seller by even a brain-dead judge. Even Microsoft got their rear kicked in Germany for trying to restrain PC sellers from unloading bundled software.
posted on September 8, 2000 04:54:38 AM
mballai - more good advice. However, as I have been trying to say, it really doesn't matter what I put in my listing. When eBay shuts down an auction due to a complaint from another user, they don't look at the auction first - they just shut it down, sight unseen.
Besides, it looks like it will be a lot easier to sell this stuff on Yahoo ...
posted on September 8, 2000 05:40:00 AM
RB, I do sympathize with your situation. I agree with some points made above. Your focus should not be on the "slime rat fink" that reported your auctions. Continuing to focus on that ("I can get any auction of yours cancelled, etc." ) puts you in a very bad light. And forget about the other 300 hundred auctions eBay happily ignores. The bottom line is you were offering an item that is prohibited by eBay. The main difference betweeen you and the other 300 sellers is that you got caught.
You may have every legal right to sell your particular item, however if it is prohibited by eBay, what do you expect will be the result? My advice would be to auction off the item at Yahoo and get on with your other sales. I don't think that turning into another eBay snitch yourself will help your perspective at all either. Forget about it.
I recently listed a CD at eBay. It was a French version of Microsoft's Visual Basic. I thought it would do well considering the rarity. When the item had received a bid of $1, it got cancelled by Microsoft via VeRO. PowerSeller Support was nice enough to send some emails asking if I wanted to fill out the form and relist the item. Hmmm, let's see ... take on Microsoft head on, face fines of $50,000, etc., just to sell a CD that had a bid of $1.
Some days you get the bear, other days the bear gets you.
posted on September 8, 2000 06:36:56 AM
twinsoft ...
My comment about me being able to cancel anyone's auction by simply sending an email to eBay was merely to illustrate how easy this is to do - I would NEVER do it myself. I was trying to show that the so-called eBay investigation does not really happen.
wrt the item I had canceled, you're a little off track there. This item is not prohibited by eBay in any way, shape, or form. The auction was canceled ONLY because someone told eBay that it SHOULD be prohibited. eBay reacted by canceling my auction without checking it out, thus satisfying the person who reported the false information. Maybe that person has generated a little more money for the eBay shareholders.
It's that simple.
As far as I'm concerned, eBay is toast in my books. I believe I have proven that they have a double set of standards, and that the rules change depending on who they talked to last before they call it a day ...
posted on September 10, 2000 06:08:57 AM
I was just curious. Did eBay tell you that your auction was ended because some other seller told them it was infringing? I find it hard to believe they could do that. Maybe I'm just naive...
[ edited by bigsmile on Sep 10, 2000 06:10 AM ]
posted on September 10, 2000 06:54:19 AM
Hey - take them up on it - they gave you the link. Do a search and report every possible infringement you see. If one is not a problem make it one. They need 40 irate users communicating with them.
posted on September 10, 2000 07:57:15 AM
RB & imabrit,
I am just curious. I understand you do not know for certain whether the other listers reported you. I am wondering whether the dealers in this category were much higher volume sellers.
It could be possible that it will no longer matter whether someone is in the right. It could be possible that money is already talking! It could be possible that a corporate rep (shown as a high vol seller) can get Ebay's attention by just an email--no questions ask. Hope not.
One rat smelling others? Or just totally suspicious?
posted on September 10, 2000 08:21:05 AM
** UPDATE **
I just had a pleasant telecon with a very nice person from eBay. I think I finally got my message through by asking her to read the eBay ruling written by the eBay lawyers - the one that I have been trying for the past 8 days to get them to acknowledge.
When I asked her why eBay hasn't dealt with the person who has been interfering with my auctions, she told me eBay does not keep records of complaining emails. Could be true as I suspect they get a lot of them.
I also asked her who eBay contacted in their so-called investigation about my auction. They have no idea of who owns the copyright! My auction was canceled purely on the assumption by eBay that it was illegal, and purely on the hearsay from another user. There was NO investigation (how could they investigate without contacting me, and without knowing who they should contact about the validity of my item???).
The fact that eBay will not cancel the obvious illegal items (now over 491 listed!) that I have been telling them about for the past week (I even cut and paste the first 100 ID's and sent them to eBay yesterday) leads me to believe that it IS a money thing.
I think I have finally made my point - it's too bad someone had to pay for a telephone call (they called me!) as it would have been much simpler for them to 'read' my emails. Their lawyers don't work on Sundays, but I was promised they would look into this tomorrow.
If I don't see a whole bunch of auctions canceled later on tomorrow, I will know that there IS a double standard here and I will continue to pursue my argument with legal advice and affidavits from the copyright holders.
Now, I am guilty of buying several of these illegal items myself
I was OK with leaving things the way they are, but I KNOW that ONE of the sellers who I purchased something from has been actively interfering with my auctions, getting them canceled, and sending emails to other sellers making false statements about me (probably the guy who sent my Canada Post Money Order back, canceled my purchase because I forgot to include an extra $3.00 US for him to cash the money order(!), then gave me my very first negative FB).
You know what:
- 3 out of 5 copyright owners I contacted last year have told me that their items cannot be sold on Amazon (and by extension, also eBay), and,
- I have checked 2 of the items I purchased, totally at random, and they BOTH state in clear wording "NOT FOR RENTAL OR RESALE"
