posted on September 12, 2000 11:27:21 PM
PayPalDamon,
When many of us signed up for Paypal we were told that paypal would remain a free service. Paypal even had in the FAQ "How can we remain a free service?" posted on their site.
They told us they made money on the float and that they would remain a free service.
Thousands of people signed up because of this.
What I want to know is this:
Did PayPal knowing mislead everyone when they offered their free service at the beginning?
Seems to me this would be a form of fraud. At the very least, PAYPAL LIED TO US.
We all took a chance on a new service when we first signed up with Paypal. We gave them our trust. And what did they do with it?
If you send money with paypal it will be a free service. If you collect money we will charge you. Never mind if the person paying you has used a credit card, or transfered money from their own bank account.
And now when you try to log on they force you to make a choice - do you sell, yes or no. I couldn't even get to a screen that reviews the charges for the service.
Paypal says to us: come on people, be nice, play fairly and tell us the truth, are you a seller or not? Is PayPal playing fairly?
On paypal's site I found this:
"In response to inquires from thousands of businesses, we have decided to create a premium Premier/Business Account service to meet the needs of our members. These premium services include auto-sweep,a 24/7 customer service call center, Batch Pay, Web Accept, and a downloadable payment history. In addition, we will soon be offering debit cards, high yield earnings, and checking accounts.
Well paypal damon, I DON'T NEED THESE SERVICES.
And if I am a seller I have to enter my
Tax ID Number (EIN) or my social security number to upgrade. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't want my SS# sent to Paypal!
PayPal ends this screen by saying they will find a way to catch the sellers who do not sign up as sellers.
Well as for me, if this is what I will be forced to do, I will say GOODBYE PAYPAL.
posted on September 12, 2000 11:48:55 PM
I'm with you Kelly, that WAS a pretty crummy thing to do.
I think they are going to have a lot of explaining to do.
posted on September 12, 2000 11:57:37 PM
A REALLY crummy thing to do. I even wrote to them before I signed up and ask them about the future fees. They assured me in an email that it would remain free! I wish
I still had the letter. Suffered a hard drive crash last month and lost everything!
PayPal can not be trusted. They are liars. What's to explain?
~~Redhead~~
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider
that the limit of our power of perception is also the
limit of all there is to perceive."--C.W.L.
posted on September 13, 2000 12:03:16 AM
I am sure paypal is going to say it is still free. Everyone can send money to their hearts content. But anyone who receives a payment would be considered a seller. Thus they would have a piece of every penny sent because would it not have to be going to a seller. Something to think about.
Snip
posted on September 13, 2000 12:16:29 AM
Why do companies do things like this?
If they want us to respect them then why don't they show us respect.
Want more money? OK, tell us what is going on. Explain what you said, why things have changed, what you now need to do.
I don't promise to like it but I will respect you and appreciate you showing me respect.
I just gave a customer a $2.00 discount to use PayPal rather than Billpoint. Think I take kindly to being treated badly?
Now with one stupid, inconsiderate, deceitful and sneaky surprise you have moved from the good guy side of the ledger right over there with eBay et al.
Smart move guys. People who handle our money are suppose to be trustworthy.
Your trustworthy account is now overdrawn.
And please don't bother with all that double talk bull****.
Your actions have said all that needs to be said.
Fortunatly I'm moving more and more of my listings to YAHOO. And they have a payment system.
And tomorrow your name is coming out of my listings and emails and your logo is off all my auctions.
You want to become my online banker. Sure, I always look for a liar to handle my money.
Who, by name is responiable for this decision? I would like to drop him a note.
posted on September 13, 2000 12:24:16 AM
Just a snipet from paypals fees page note the Rules statement
Fees Personal Account Premier Account
For signing up FREE FREE
For sending money FREE FREE
For requesting money FREE FREE
For receiving payments FREE Maximum of
1.9% + 25¢*
See Fee Schedule
For adding funds to or withdrawing from your account
FREE
FREE
For batch payments N/A Lesser of 2% or 25¢
per payment
For daily sweep N/A 0.6% per transaction
*The 25¢ per transaction fee will not apply until 10/1/00.
Rules
In order to reserve Personal Accounts for individual use only, we require all businesses to sign up for a Business Account. Individuals may sign up for either a Personal or a Premier account.
posted on September 13, 2000 12:31:12 AM
Yes they do! Just go to my thread and see how in the space of 2 hours I withdrew my money and received an email from PayPal the transaction was completed and my PayPal account reflected that also. Now I went back to my Paypal Account and it reads *PENDING*. So to get my money, I will have to sign up or lose it, or ask my customers to please withdraw their payments on these last transactions, and send me a check. Paypal will hear from me in the morning!
[ edited by furkidmom on Sep 13, 2000 12:35 AM ]
posted on September 13, 2000 01:03:10 AM
I think the simplest solution is to pull the paypal links from all of our auction listings and close the paypal accounts en mass, sort of a PayPal version of the Million Auction March. The folks at PayPal certainly have not met their written committment for "always free, always!" that they made less than 1 year ago. I think besides pulling the links and cancelling my PayPal account I would be favorably disposed to participating in a class action suit against X AKA PayPal for breach of contract, perhaps consumer fraud, "bait and switch" or whatever else the lawyers would deem appropriate. Perhaps a "Million Ex-Member Lawsuit" and a flamboyant prominant class action Attorney would get their attention! They are weasels of the first order.
posted on September 13, 2000 01:06:47 AM
But if you already have a bid on an auction and have alot of them running, how do you get their logo off of the site when you cannot revise?
posted on September 13, 2000 01:12:30 AM
I know everyone is upset. I am also. Try this:
1) Log on to Paypal and get the new screen. Don't click any of the three buttons.
2) Log out and then log back in and the previous log on screen is gone and your account screen is there.
3) Withdraw all your money. I did. Then log out.
4) Log on again and the three button screen is gone.
Apparently the three button log on screen is a one shot deal to see how many people they can snag
into checking out the accounts. If you don't click any of the three buttons you are ok. If you do you've
had it.
posted on September 13, 2000 01:14:42 AM
I did that earlier in the day and it showed completed. Now I go there and clicked on account history...and the last withdrawl has gone from *completed* to *pending*. and my balance does show ZERO! Maybe it has to be updated in the morning when they plug in the coffee pot at the office...
Please see comments below.
posted on September 12, 2000 11:27:21 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PayPalDamon,
When many of us signed up for Paypal we were told that paypal would remain a free service. Paypal even had in the FAQ "How can we remain a free service?" posted on their site. (Yes, we intend on keeping the service free for person-to-person transactions, as was the original intent of the site and not e-commerce. It has grown into business needs as well)
They told us they made money on the float and that they would remain a free service.
(Many users assume the float means a great deal of money. With the number of credit card transactions pouring through, we are only passing along the charge for accepting credit cards at cost and we are not marking it up like other venues. No other hidden fees and you have more protection with a verified account than you do have from a merchant account)
Thousands of people signed up because of this.
(person-to-person transactions will remain free)
What I want to know is this:
Did PayPal knowing mislead everyone when they offered their free service at the beginning? (No. The service was established as a person-to-person payment mechanism and user demand created the consumer to business and business to consumer market. I have been with the company since we had 2000 users and I have seen the growth come about as a result of consumer demand)
Seems to me this would be a form of fraud. At the very least, PAYPAL LIED TO US.
(No. We will remain free for pure person-to-person transactions)
We all took a chance on a new service when we first signed up with Paypal. We gave them our trust. And what did they do with it?
(We have built auction tools, business tools, and more based on consumer demand. International,debit cards, shopping carts,dividends, etc. are being released very soon (within the month or slightly over a month)..all of these items have helped increase sales for many users. In order to create buyer and seller confidence, we also developed a verification system that guarantees transactions against fraud. Consumer trust is important and our terms of use have stated that persons conducting ecommerce transactions need to be a business account.)
If you send money with paypal it will be a free service. If you collect money we will charge you. Never mind if the person paying you has used a credit card, or transfered money from their own bank account.
(Credit card processing actually costs a great deal of money and there are costs associated with ach transfers).
And now when you try to log on they force you to make a choice - do you sell, yes or no. I couldn't even get to a screen that reviews the charges for the service.
Paypal says to us: come on people, be nice, play fairly and tell us the truth, are you a seller or not? Is PayPal playing fairly?
On paypal's site I found this:
"In response to inquires from thousands of businesses, we have decided to create a premium Premier/Business Account service to meet the needs of our members. These premium services include auto-sweep,a 24/7 customer service call center, Batch Pay, Web Accept, and a downloadable payment history. In addition, we will soon be offering debit cards, high yield earnings, and checking accounts.
Well paypal damon, I DON'T NEED THESE SERVICES.
( You may not, but the ability to accept credit cards increases sales and traditionally requires a merchant account.You are paying no monthly fees for the service and you have more built-in fraud protection. The going rates for merchant accounts are anywhere from 3-9% (or more)
And if I am a seller I have to enter my
Tax ID Number (EIN) or my social security number to upgrade. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't want my SS# sent to Paypal! ( You do not have to enter in this information.The wording is getting clarified as we speak to reflect it)
PayPal ends this screen by saying they will find a way to catch the sellers who do not sign up as sellers.
Well as for me, if this is what I will be forced to do, I will say GOODBYE PAYPAL.
posted on September 13, 2000 01:57:21 AM
If PayPal's intention was to be a person-to-person payment service, why in the world do you mention auctions on your site at all?
You provide auction logos. You provide a special page just for auction payments. All while saying "always free", and that no one will be forced to upgrade.
Now, suddenly, anyone who sells on an auction site even part time is termed a "Seller" as far as PayPal is concerned, and is suddenly expected to upgrade to a business account and pay fees, despite your "always free" claim.
And then PayPal has the nerve to call OUR honesty into question ....
posted on September 13, 2000 02:03:28 AM
When we signed up PayPal was a free service. Period! No mention of any charges then or future... When PayPal initiated Business and Premium accounts we were told that on one would be forced to upgrade....
We signed up with PayPal because it was free. We were lead to believe it would always be free.
This bait and switch scheme will backfire! You will lose many members over this. PayPal's honesty, or lack of it, is clearly what is in question here.
posted on September 13, 2000 02:46:38 AM
PayPalDamon - More explanation on your part needed I think...
You (the company) started this as a payment system for BUYERS AND SELLERS for PERSON to PERSON AUCTIONS. You promised, IN WRITING, it would ALWAYS be free. Since then you have developed additional commercial products that some folks will use and be happy to pay for - BUT - THE ORIGINAL SYSTEM MUST REMAIN FREE - or PayPal is a LIAR. You can NOT force folks to upgrade their accounts because you made a PROMISE. Fine - offer additional services and charge fees BUT if you renege on your original promises you will lose all credibility, and your reputation is all you have. Make your for fee services so attractive that folks WANT to upgrade and pay you fees, but going about it the way you are is incredibly stupid, and possibly even illegal. What part about FOREVER FREE don't you understand? I think you need to rethink your strategy here and go back to making upgrades a strictly voluntary procedure. Do we need to start a movement against PayPal also? -Rosalinda
(typos)
TAGnotes - daily email synopsis about the Online Auction Industry
http://www.egroups.com/group/TheAuctionGuildnotes
[ edited by rnrgroup on Sep 13, 2000 02:48 AM ]
posted on September 13, 2000 03:02:24 AM
Roslinda, he's getting 'belly rubs' in the longer thread - could you please post your statement over there also.
posted on September 13, 2000 03:06:12 AM
I just emtied my PayPal account and changed settings so new auctions will not get logos. I would not have had a problem with fees if they had not lied about them in the begening.
posted on September 13, 2000 03:07:12 AM
I want to sue PayPal, am I not an attorney and I don't know what options are available, but it seems to me that "Breach of contract" "Consumer Fraud", "Bait and Switch" "anticompetitive practices" "Retraint of trade" "Monopolistic Competition" could be possible grounds for a class action suit. If any attorneys are reading this board and can be of assistance please post with contact information. I look forward to joining the "Million Ex-Paypal Member" Class action suit against this entity. I think the first thing for every one to do is drop the paypal links from all listings from this day forward, put in BOLD in each listing "I DO NOT ACCEPT PAYPAL PAYMENTS!" and cancel their paypal account, perhaps the braniacs that run X.com AKA Paypal will then see the error of their ways and repent!
posted on September 13, 2000 03:11:29 AM
I've emptied my account, too, and I'm taking the logo off my auction pages. I don't know if I'll go back or not, but I do know this:
I've never mislead the people at Paypal. I am not a business, I only have maybe 10 auctions a week going. Some weeks I only have 3 or 4 auctions going.
But, regardless of the reasons and justifications Paypal is giving us now, I feel lied to and taken advantage of. I don't particularly like that feeling.
Robin
edited to remove the sig line
[ edited by monkeysuit on Sep 13, 2000 03:12 AM ]
edited to add.. even if they do decide not to force every seller, no matter how small, to sign up for business accounts, I don't know if I'll stay with them. For me, it took a lot of trust to give an on line business access to my money. I'm always going to feel the way I did when I logged onto this message board today and realized Paypal promised one thing and then did another.
[ edited by monkeysuit on Sep 13, 2000 03:19 AM ]
posted on September 13, 2000 03:21:45 AM
furkidmom: A withdrawl is always pending until the system updates the next day and your payment is processed. Heather
posted on September 13, 2000 03:23:46 AM
I plan to take paypal off as a option for sending payment, I do not think it is right for them to try and force you to sign up for a account you do not want! I sell about 20-25 items a week this does not make me a bussiness!
posted on September 13, 2000 04:49:24 AM
OK folks, be honest now ... everyone raise a hand if you flamed me when I made my comments about PayPal's so-called 'free' service here at AW when it was first announced.
Why would anyone believe anything PaypalDamon/Paul or Peter wrote anyway?
This is your credibility. This is your credibility destroyed. Any questions?
It seems that PayPal learned no lessons at all from the verification fisaco. They had numerous opportunities then to level with their users and be honest with us. They didn't. So sad, for a company with so much potential. A company that handles other people's money as a course of business MUST maintain the trust of its' users. For PayPal, that trust is completely gone now.
posted on September 13, 2000 05:16:48 AM
You know what kills me? How these companies are so naive they think that they can break universal law and get away with it. That they are deluded enough to think they are omnipotent. I got a piece of advice paypal. People don't like being screwed.
People pull the links out of your auctions. This advertising that you are doing for paypal is the very thing that will identify you as a "sellers".
posted on September 13, 2000 08:07:02 AMVeryModern ~ The reason companies think they can get away with it and actually do for long periods of time is because lots [if not most] people will go along with just about anything, if they feel it is to their advantage. Standing up for principles is not very popular!
posted on September 13, 2000 08:13:50 AM
I just got off the phone with paypal I was told that they put that up as a option and that you did not have to ugrade to keep recieving payments after Oct.1 , I told them how this was coming across to the sellers and that if I had to upgrade my account I would close it out
