posted on September 13, 2000 01:38:30 PM
And place yours in Partner Services so that I can help Auctionwatch keep these in the right area:
Hi all,
I can tell that many of you are upset, I would just ask you to review the information below.
It's important to note that this message is simply to remind our user of our Terms of Use -- which require accounts using our service for business use to register for a Business or Premier account. These terms have been in effect since X.com began offering Business and Premier accounts in June. It is also important to note, that X.com's PayPal service REMAINS FREE for consumer and personal use.
What is business use and who should have a Business account? Here is the relevant text of the message:
"What type of activity do we classify as "business use"? Using PayPal to collect payments for goods or services sold on a corporate website, personal homepage, or other forum counts as business use. Auction sellers — both individuals who make it a full time job and those who sell on a recurring, part-time basis — are also engaging in business use. If you have a Personal Account and you use it for business purposes, we ask that you comply with our terms of use and upgrade."
Our service is still the best around, at the lowest possible prices. And there are even more great features coming next month:
Earned income on your X.com PayPal account
Debit cards
International
Shopping carts
To provide the service, over and above the credit card costs, we provide and incur costs with:
Providing Buyer and Seller Protection against fraudulent transactions
I appreciate the feedback that you all have thrown my way, and I would like to apologize for my inability to answer every post. I would like to add that there are many things to running the business that may not be readily apparent to the end users. We are still the most feature-rich service available -- and the least expensive -- in relation to the products and services we currently offer and will be offering.
Many thanks for your support and for your feedback.
posted on September 13, 2000 03:12:09 PM— both individuals who make it a full time job and those who sell on a recurring, part-time basis — are also engaging in business use.
So basically, if you are a seller, you are a business?
posted on September 13, 2000 03:38:41 PM
My question is the same as what barrelracer points out. If you sell daily or even weekly, part-time with stuff from your attic, are you a business? Exactly what is considered person to person then?
posted on September 13, 2000 03:49:22 PM
This is just a fine kettle of fish. There are many sellers, like myself, who sell primarily their own belongings. Items like clothing their children have outgrown, kitchen items they no longer use, basic household items they no longer need.
These types of sales might be considered a "business" only in the broadest sense of the word. These items are sold generally at a loss and the sellers are only trying to keep ahead of the constant drain on their money.
Expecting these types of small scale sellers to pay extra for this type of service is expecting too much, especially when the service has been presented from the beginning as a "free" service.
There should be some kind of cut off, some level of transactions per month to allow these sellers to keep using this service for free. I can only speak for myself that I won't be using PP ever again. I have no desire to do any kind of business with a company that has such loose ethics.
posted on September 13, 2000 04:04:49 PM
We know what the User Agreement says (now that you've changed it). Your post does not address the reason why we are upset.
What I can't figure out is how I misread this email you sent me in June:
Premier/Business accounts are also available to individuals who would like to take advantage of the premium features. However, no one will be forced to upgrade to a Business/Premier account. Personal Accounts will remain FREE for individual use!
Your bold font, not mine.
I am an individual who sells on eBay. I own a separate business as well. eBay is not my busienss You knew I was an eBay seller when my first customer "beamed" me a payment, and I had to sign up to get my money, or raise a fuss with my buyer. Your slogan is "Always Free", and when you introduced the busioenss accounts, you sent me the email to allay my fears that you would suddenly start charging me for what was a free service.
So, I continued to run your logo in all my auctions, and defended you countless time as an honest, ethical, FREE service, and I continued to encourage my buyers to sign up for your service as recently as last night.
Now, out of the blue, you accuse me of dishonesty for not upgrading to a business account sooner, threaten me with some vague "enforcement", and tell me you are going to take 25 cents plus 1.9% off every transaction that my bidders send your way.
Please don't tell us that we don't understand what it costs to run a business, that's not the issue here.
Please don't tell us that personal accounts are free (what the hell IS a personal account anyway?), a personal ccount is what you encouraged me to sign up for in the first place.
Please don't tell us what a bargain PayPal is. We know you charge less than your competitors, but that is not what we signed up for, and what we encouraged out buyers to use.
Just tell us what we could have done, as intelligent consumers, to avoid falling into a classic "bait and switch" scam.
posted on September 13, 2000 04:07:09 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi all,
I can tell that many of you are upset, I would just ask you to review the information below.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How can we help reviewing it, it's in our faces when we go to PayPal and in our faces on every thread about this all over the place. Instead of answering questions, PayPal dishes out this PR statement...... here it is... PayPal's spinning PR statement........
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's important to note that this message is simply to remind our user of our Terms of Use -- which require accounts using our service for business use to register for a Business or Premier account.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
These 'terms of use' were not even a glimmer in the public eye while you were asking us to sign people up for you. What is your next change of terms of use going to be? How often is it going to change? When will the next one come? it took only a few months to get to this...
Hey Damon... you guys cannot cover the fact that PayPal deceived people with purpose and intent. It is clear to everyone.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
These terms have been in effect since X.com began offering Business and Premier accounts in June. It is also important to note, that X.com's PayPal service REMAINS FREE for consumer and personal use.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So you signed us up and told us it would be free always and then came up with a new fee-based service that we have to sign on for in order to comply with your new terms of service a few short months later... after touting your profitability model based on 'float'. God, I wish I had the OTWA archives on this to put some of PayPal's quotes back up here. This is 'bait and switch' in the most classic sense and on a massive level.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What is business use and who should have a Business account? Here is the relevant text of the message:
"What type of activity do we classify as "business use"? Using PayPal to collect payments for goods or services sold on a corporate website, personal homepage, or other forum counts as business use. Auction sellers — both individuals who make it a full time job and those who sell on a recurring, part-time basis — are also engaging in business use. If you have a Personal Account and you use it for business purposes, we ask that you comply with our terms of use and upgrade."
See, this is the bait and switch. You told us it would ALWAYS be free and you signed us up for BUSINESS USE in the beginning and then got us to sign up our customers and now you are forcing a switch to a fee based system after PROMISING it would not be that. PayPal is a deceitful company that lied to us and now you expect us to just switch over and la ti da... everything is rosy. Think again PayPal. Think again...
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Our service is still the best around,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is subject to debate... the 'best', I dunno, but I'll admit you do have a very good service. Too bad you felt it necessary to lie and trick people into using it.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
at the lowest possible prices.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But the lowest possible price is free, remember? 'We make money off of the interest float on your money and advertising revenue' You came up with that, we didn't! But it was not a viable business model then, just as it is not now and you knew it then and you know it now. The quality of your service is not in debate and has never been in debate. Your lying and deceit is the problem. You asked for our trust and we gave it to you. You lied to us and you want us to stay with you on the basis of the quality of your service. As Ross would say... 'Get bent'
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And there are even more great features coming next month:
Earned income on your X.com PayPal account
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To provide the service, over and above the credit card costs, we provide and incur costs with:
24/7 Customer Service(over 350 representatives answering in-bound calls/emails)
Check writing costs
ACH costs
Providing Buyer and Seller Protection against fraudulent transactions
So this is a new thing? Something that wasn't in your original business plan? You mean you never expected any of these expenses when you established your 'float and advertising' revenue model? Pah! That either means that PayPal is too completely ignorant to be worthy of handling our money or you are bald faced bait and switch liars.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I appreciate the feedback that you all have thrown my way,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I do hope you appreciate my feedback and hope that you share it with the rest of PayPal. Be sure to check out www.milliondollarmarch.com, coming your way soon!
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
and I would like to apologize for my inability to answer every post.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Understandable, except that you are the only one covering at least 2 boards out of the 350 customer service people who answer the phone one at a time. Here you have a huge audience that you could answer these questions and stem the tide, but I know you don't want to answer them because they are in print and forever... so all you can toss us is this PR bone that doesn't answer any of them at all. OK, we call all call you then. No problem Damon.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would like to add that there are many things to running the business that may not be readily apparent to the end users.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why dontcha tell us about it Damon? Since they are not apparent, clue us in! I'd really like to hear and I'm sure everyone else would as well.
quote:
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We are still the most feature-rich service available -- and the least expensive -- in relation to the products and services we currently offer and will be offering.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And the biggest lying bait and switch vendor in the business too!
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Many thanks for your support and for your feedback.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PayPal... Many thanks for the past few months before you revealed yourselves to be lying bait and switch operators who are not trustworthy enough to have the care of my money or my customer's money.
posted on September 13, 2000 04:15:47 PM
Great, all vented now? Stop yapping about it and either agree to the terms or take it elsewhere. Enough already...............
posted on September 13, 2000 04:20:16 PM
Just need to know what happened to:
If you sell LESS than 30 items per month, you are NOT considered a business...????
I am not annoyed at the fees: business is business...But I AM P.O. at the devious way X.com got Paypal to change it's terms... I do not believe that Paypal had intention to do this...X.COM DID!....So, we are surrounded by deviousness...Ebay with their stupid behind-the-scene changes, X.COM, same thing...
posted on September 13, 2000 04:25:22 PM
NO overworked, it is not enough.....That is exactly what Paypal wants us to do is to quit yapping about it.....They are very quiet and when they do speak up it is a cut & paste answer. They are quiet because they think we will all just get tired of yapping.......PLEASE, you all YAP YAP YAP
posted on September 13, 2000 04:59:22 PM
I want to respond to the accusation that PayPal somehow lied about its policy. This is untrue and unfair.
The login reminder page restates a policy that has been in place for months. The facts:
1. Below, in full, is the email that we sent to users in July. The relevant portion clearly states that "businesses using PayPal are required by our terms of use to create a Business Account."
2. A clear "Rules" box on our "Personal vs. Premier/Business Account" page (which highlights the differences between account types) states the requirement that businesses must sign up for a business account. This box has been on our site since June.
3. Our terms of use have also stated for weeks that if you are using PayPal to conduct "e-commerce on a regular basis," you need to sign up for, or upgrade to, a Premier or Business account.
We have always said that PayPal is free for personal use. That remains true today. We have also always said that business use requires a Premier or Business account.
I realize that there are a number of occasional sellers who want clarification on what constitutes business use. Obviously, there is a big difference between the occasional seller who sells one beanie babie a month, and a seller who sells dozens of items per month. Today's reminder was only directed at sellers who conduct e-commerce on a regular basis.
It is not possible for PayPal to subsidize these businesses and continue to provide this service for all.
From: PayPal News [[email protected]]
Date: Saturday, July 8, 2000
Subject: Important news about your PayPal account
Dear [FIRSTNAME],
Last month we wrote to tell you about the launch of
PayPal’s new Premier and Business Accounts. These
accounts included premium features such as 24/7 customer
service support and an automatic daily sweep of funds into
your bank account. And we also promised you that many
more premium tools were still to come. Now, we at X.com are
pleased to deliver PAYPAL'S LATEST SET OF FEATURES for
Premier and Business users:
· Web Accept: accept payments directly on your website
· Auction Tools: new ways to manage your online auctions
with ease
· Batch Pay: send affiliate payments to thousands of
people at once
· Downloadable Transaction Log
· Unlimited Credit Card Payments
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
ACCEPT MONEY ON YOUR HOMEPAGE
Our new Web Accept tool lets you accept payments directly
on your website. By posting Web Accept buttons on your
web pages, BUYERS CAN PAY YOU FOR PURCHASES WITH PAYPAL
INSTANTLY -- without leaving your site. Accepting
payments online has never been easier! (Pricing for this
feature is only a modest 1.9% on payments received, with
no flat fee.) Learn more about Web Accept by going to
our website:
https://secure.paypal.x.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/web/index-outside
Also, our Business Account users now will have NO LIMIT ON
CREDIT CARD FUNDS RECEIVED. Buyers who have reached their
PayPal $2,000 credit card spending limit can still charge
their card when sending a payment to Premier and
Business users.
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
AUCTION MANAGEMENT TOOLS
Collect auction payments quickly and easily with INSTANT
PURCHASE FOR AUCTIONS. This feature lets buyers pay you
simply by clicking on a logo in your auction listing; this
generates a pop-up form where buyers can enter their PayPal
username and password to pay you without even having to
login to our website. Also new, our AUTOMATED PAYMENT
REQUEST creates online invoices that you can distribute to
your winning bidders. It's fast -- you can send out 100
invoices in just 10 minutes! Visit our website to learn
more about our new auction tools for Premier and Business
Account users: http://www.paypal.x.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/auc/auction-business-tools-outside
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
SEND PAYMENTS THROUGH BATCH PAY
Now pay hundreds -- even thousands -- of people all at
once with X.com’s new Batch Pay tool. If you run an
AFFILIATE PROGRAM, A COUPON/REBATE PROMOTION, OR A
"PAY-TO-SURF" COMPANY, you no longer have to depend on
expensive and slow check runs to pay your customers --
Batch Pay can do it for you. (Batch payment transactions
cost the lesser of 2% or $0.25 per payment, far below
the cost of printing and mailing a check.) For more
information on X.com's Batch Pay, go to:
http://www.paypal.x.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/batch-outside.
And for those of you who participate in a "pay-to-surf"
or affiliate program, be sure to tell your administrator
you'd like to BE PAID WITH PAYPAL!
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
PREMIUM FUNCTIONALITY
In addition to all the features available on PayPal
personal accounts, Premier and Business users can take
advantage of these other special features and services:
· A DOWNLOADABLE TRANSACTION HISTORY available in
Quicken, QuickBooks, and comma-delimited text formats.
· Automatic sweep of your PayPal balance into your bank
account at the end of each day. (This feature is optional
and carries a modest 0.6% fee.)
· A 24-hour-a-day, 7-days-a-week exclusive customer service
hotline.
· Frequent special promotions, such as last month’s "Free
Listing Week."
· Automatic eligibility for X.com's AFFILIATE PROGRAM.
· Many Business Account users will be eligible to be
featured in our upcoming SHOPPING TAB, where over 2.5
million PayPal users will be able to make instant, online
purchases directly from you.
For more information on all the features vailable to Business
and Premier users, please visit our site:
https://secure.paypal.x.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/personal_vs_business-outside
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
It’s fast and simple to upgrade your personal account in
order to take advantage of these premium features. Please keep
in mind that businesses using PayPal are required by our terms
of use to create a Business Account. To upgrade, just login to
your PayPal account and click on the "Upgrade Now" button. The
upgrade process only takes a couple of minutes, and you’ll be
able to use our new payment tools immediately.
We appreciate your choice to use X.com’s PayPal service to send
and receive money, and thanks for helping to make PayPal the #1
payment service on the Web!
posted on September 13, 2000 05:06:01 PM
This is just a fine kettle of fish. There are many sellers, like myself, who sell primarily their own belongings. Items like clothing their children have outgrown, kitchen items they no longer use, basic household items they no longer need.
These types of sales might be considered a "business" only in the broadest sense of the word. These items are sold generally at a loss and the sellers are only trying to keep ahead of the constant drain on their money.
***********************************
Not picking on anyone here but actually if one will go and read the federal tax laws it was put into effect ancient years ago that if you even have 'yard sales' you are suppose to claim that as 'earned income' so out doing it on the internet is the same thing 'it is earned income'.
We really should not expect to get things for free such as a paypal service if we are using that service to obtain money we make no matter what the avenue is auctions or whatever.
Federal laws state that anything we sell is 'earned income'. So why should we expect services like paypal to foot the bill for providing us with a service where we make money.
posted on September 13, 2000 05:16:31 PM
From PayPal's TOS:
*****We may amend this Agreement at any time by posting the amended terms to our site, and your continued use of the Service will constitute acceptance of the amended terms. This Agreement was last modified on September 11, 2000.*****
posted on September 13, 2000 05:19:39 PM
Anyone care to entertain what a Personal Account with Paypal constitutes these days?
Since it isn't for online sales, of any kind, what would it be useful for?
Think I am gonna send my Aunt Pittypat a birthday gift through Paypal? Ah...I know, I can pay my bookie through Paypal, with my handy Personal Account!
posted on September 13, 2000 05:20:02 PM
Quote: "...it was put into effect ancient years ago that if you even have 'yard sales' you are suppose to claim that as 'earned income' ..."
Not true. You are required to claim the profit from such sales as income. If you buy a thing for personal use and later sell it for less than you originally paid, there is no profit and it does not count as income.
This is why the IRS does not pursue yard sales as sources of tax revenue.
posted on September 13, 2000 05:21:29 PM
So what exactly would one USE a personal account for? It's not like people sit at their computers just sending money back and forth for no reason. It's usually sent in exchange for something.
So unless I owe a friend $20, and I'd rather 'beam' it than drive it over, a personal account is basically useless?
posted on September 13, 2000 05:22:53 PM
are you pretty sure that selling a $40 piece of clothing (original cost) for $5 on ebay constitutes "earned income"??? That's a pretty typical scenario that was being alluded to. I'll be curious to see the definitive statement from the IRS that selling household items at a loss at yard sales constitutes declarable income. In fact, if I try to claim a loss from such sales, and reduce my income otherwise subject to taxation, the IRS would quickly declare my yard sales a "hobby" and disallow any mention.
Of course, i'm not a tax lawyer, i'd be curious to hear some solid evidence on the subject of selling off used household items for pennies on the dollar and declaring the income thereof.
It appears that paypal is defining "personal" as "buyer/customer".
Its actually a pretty standard kind of definition, in some sense. Banks, for example, often have "personal" versus "commercial" accounts along the same lines. Write all the checks you want to pay for things for your personal use, and its "personal"...start depositing funds from sales of items, and you are "commercial".
posted on September 13, 2000 05:28:59 PM
What I do not understand is if a personal account is to be used for transactions person to person and not for auctions ( which according to paypal would make it a business), why did personal accounts have access to web tools and auction tools?
If from day 1 personal accounts were free with no access to these tools, the defense paypal uses of person to person will still be free would be valid- but all of the sudden changing the rules in the middle of the game by stating sellers who have a personal account who use paypal for auction payment should upgrade to a business account is not fair.
Free personal accounts allowed sellers to use the web and auction tools for auctions since day 1 and it should remain that way.
I own a merchant account which does charge more than the paypal fees but it is the principle that paypal has changed the rules in the middle of the game when it said it would not that bothers me. Lauren
posted on September 13, 2000 05:41:48 PM
SorryDamon, but I have to agree with lsst...Why the Auction Tools for a PERSONAL account?....
This is getting much too confusing for this old woman...Back to Money Orders...
******************** Shosh http://www.oldandsold.com/cgi-bin/auction.cgi?justdisp&Rifkah
posted on September 13, 2000 05:56:45 PM
[Hey -- if Damon can post his message 17 times, I can post my response to it 17 times as well, right?]
Oh, THERE it is, buried waaaaaaay down at the very bottom of a lengthy e-mail that few people would ever bother reading in full:
"Please keep in mind that businesses using PayPal are required by our terms of use to create a Business Account."
OK, so maybe PayPal DIDN'T lie after all. Well, except for the fact that they originally said that their services would be "free forever" and then changed their "terms of service" to require anybody who sells anything to sign up for a NEWLY CREATED fee-based business account. But that's not really a lie, right? More of a broken promise, I guess....
Unfortunately, Damon, you most certainly DID lie. After that e-mail was sent out you were asked point blank whether any users would be forced to sign up for a business account and you said "no". And that directly contradicts PayPal's own [albeit unobtrusively buried where nobody would notice] terms.
You had a chance back in July to come clean and say yes, people who sell on eBay and use Paypal will be required to upgrade to a business account and pay the associated fees. Instead, however, you chose to lie.
My only question now is what, exactly, is your relation to PayPal, and is there really a difference between you telling us a lie and "PayPal" lying to us?
Barry
---
The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
posted on September 13, 2000 06:17:27 PM
Damon -- Your repetitious posts are starting to look like spam, and smell like spam that's been sitting in the sun for a week.
No one is questioning that lengthy e-mail you keep on re-posting.
Why don't you respond to the other e-mail that has been quoted here -- the one that says "No one will ever be forced to upgrade". That's the lie that Paypal told, and the one that we're angry about, Damon.
Address that e-mail, Damon, and stop posting the lengthy e-mail. We're sick of it. We're sick of being lied to. And we're sick of your evading the question.
posted on September 13, 2000 07:23:40 PM
Come on, peeps! Buried in the resurrected "PayPalPaul Removed from eBay" thread, you have the key to the whole deal from the cyberlips of paypaldamon himself, posted just a couple of hours ago:
"It is not possible for PayPal to subsidize these businesses and continue to provide this service for all."
That's it. What they REALLY mean is that volume is sufficient to launch what HAD to be Stage 2 in the business plan. They're pulling this with a bit of semantic swill that would do Slick Willy proud: If you sell, you're a business. Never mind that federal and local authorities do not share this interpretation, it works for PayPall! Want to prove me wrong? Get them to define "recurring." I can hear it already: "Something recurs if it happens more than once."
posted on September 13, 2000 07:33:42 PM
For all you people who aren't a business,how do you explain all this extra income you collect off E-Bay?Without business deductions you must have to pay a bunch of taxes,and how do you afford to pay the Social Security taxes? Just wondering.
