posted on September 13, 2000 07:09:40 PM new
Hi everyone,
As it is readily apparent that I cannot answer each post at the moment, this would be very beneficial. What do you think is fair or constitutes a business?
I have not lied and we are not forcing upgrades. Today's notification was restating our policy and also advising that enforcement could come down the road for BUSINESSES conducting ecommerce under a personal account.
posted on September 13, 2000 07:16:05 PM new
What would be fair would be for Paypal to do what it promised it would do when it first introduced business accounts:
(1) Force no one to upgrade, regardless of usage level.
(2) Restrict the upcoming new features (international, etc.) to business/premier accounts, and *invite* users to upgrade to obtain those premium services.
In other words, keep the promises you made to us just a few months ago.
IMO, PayPal is worth 1.9% of transaction amounts, particularly if these promised new services materialize. But I do not want a company that cannot keep its word handling my money.
posted on September 13, 2000 07:18:39 PM new
BTW, Damon, I don't think you have lied. I think you have just regurgitated the lies told to you by your employers, like "we will never force anyone to upgrade".
posted on September 13, 2000 07:34:40 PM new
Why do you do this? This is the second time--that I *remember*--that you have come to AW and asked *us* to define something for *your* company. Wasn't it just a month ago that you started a thread asking us to suggest wording for the "verified" fiasco? And that was just a ruse to get everyone to vent away their ill feelings & stay with your service--nothing ever came of *any* of the suggestions.
You shouldn't have to come here & ask us--PayPal should have clear guidelines on the subject.
BTW, here is the sum total of *my* business dealings with PayPal, which I also posted on another thread. Read it and then tell me--do you *really* think I have any need for *any* of the bells & whistles on the business accounts? Do I sound like a big business to you? Medium? Heck, I barely rate in the "small" category, don't you think? Here goes:
I went over my records from the time I finally decided to accept PayPal payments in April to the present (roughly 6 months):
In that time, I had 28 payments sent to me using PayPal--which averages at less than 5 per month. And what munificent sum was the total of those 28 transactions? Why, the awe-inspiring, mind-boggling amount of...$290.67. In six months. Works out to something like $48.44 per month.
And this, in PayPal's mind, qualifies me for--no, no requires me to have--a *business* account?
posted on September 13, 2000 07:58:30 PM new
I dare say this is the second time this year an internet co. went back on its word! First the software program ebud, now paypal....I can live without both of you. Their are others who would be glad to have our business or I can go back to m.o. and checks.
Its time laws are enacted so these internet companys can be held acountable.
posted on September 13, 2000 08:03:09 PM new
I'm sorry, but I don't give a rat's patootie what "constitutes a business". If you want to define anybody who sells anything anywhere for any price as a business and charge them fees as a result, go right ahead. It's your site. But please try to get it though your skull what we are upset about.
PayPal established itself solely on the basis of their promise that their services would be free FOR EVERYONE and FOREVER. When PayPal solicited business from eBay sellers they did NOT say that in the future there would be fees, or that there was ANY DISTINCTION WHATSOEVER between "personal" use and "business" use. Was that a lie or simply a promise that PayPal was unable to keep? Your call.
PayPal then announced a new level of "premium" services for business customers, which would NOT be free. And yes, buried DEEP within that announcement was a short sentence saying that "business users are required to operate using a Premier or Business Account". But when people asked whether this actually applied to them and whether they would be forced to upgrade, you told them "no one will be forced to upgrade to a Business/Premier account". Was that a lie, or are you simply ignorant as to the meanings of the words "require" and "force"? Again, your call.
The issue is not that this new requirement was added to the Terms of Use [although, to be honest, that was a pretty crappy thing to do after all the promises of free service had been made]. The issue is that you then told people that they would not be "forced" to upgrade INSTEAD of telling them that yes, they ARE considered businesses under the new terms and are therefore REQUIRED to upgrade.
Simply put, we don't like being jerked around, even if you can make a case that you technically didn't actually "lie" to us. You made your bed, Damon. And now you are being "required" to lie in it.
Barry
---
The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
posted on September 13, 2000 08:08:21 PM new
"that enforcement could come down the road for BUSINESSES conducting ecommerce under a personal account."
It sounds like PP will decide what is a business, and then force the "business" to get a business account.
This "survey" sounds like an ebay survey... PP will then announce what a "business" is deemed to be (and say that those surveyed agreed or suggested...)
It would be more honest for PP to say "hey, we lied, we're going to charge EVERYONE a fee..."
posted on September 13, 2000 08:16:08 PM new
Oh, and another thing....
You said that "our upgrading of accounts was done on an honesty basis" meaning, I assume, that you were relying on the integrity of sellers to "admit" that they were "businesses" and sign up for the premium services as they were now "required" to do.
Well, if this is truly the case, why the planet of HELL didn't you actually SAY something about this back in June when people were asking about it? You COULD have said "Yes, we consider you to be a business if you sell on eBay and, although we will not FORCE you to sign up for a business account you will be in violation of our new terms if you don't. We are relying on the honesty of those people who selling on eBay to sign up for a bsuiness account."
But NOOOOOOOOOO. Instead you just said [over and over and over again] "no one will be forced to upgrade to a Business/Premier account". No mention of REQUIRING people to sign up. No mention of "honesty". Just "no one will be forced to upgrade to a Business/Premier account".
Sure, there would have been an uproar had you been forthright back then. But I bet a lot LESS of an uproar than you are seeing now.
Barry
---
The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
posted on September 13, 2000 08:35:17 PM newWhat do you think is fair or constitutes a business?
I think it would be fair to "grandfather" in all the part time eBay sellers who took you at your word that your sevice would always be free. Even after the June unilateral change in the User Agreement, you sent us all emails telling us that no one would be forced to upgrade.
I think what should constitute a "business" for your purposes is anyone with a brick and morter business, or commerical web site, that uses PayPal as an alternative to their regular acceptabce of credit cards.
Many of us would not be accepting credit cards at all, without PayPal's "beaming money", $5.00 reward program, and constant assurances that you wold always be FREE. YOU got us in to this! When we registered, there was no personal or business category, just one account type, and you spent millions coming after us and signing us up. making PayPal an integral part of doing business for eBay sellers large and small. THEN you create a business category, and simultaneously email us all and tell us "never mind that, NO ONE WILL BE FORCED TO UPGRADE", so we continued to offer PayPal all summer long.
Now, you tell us we are being dishonest by not switching to the business account, for doing ANY level of selling on eBay, and threaten us with investigations and enforcement down the road.
"I have not lied and we are not forcing upgrades. Today's notification was restating our policy and also advising that enforcement could come down the road for BUSINESSES conducting ecommerce under a personal account.
Which policy is that? The one you reintrepreted today, or the one you emailed us last June that said "For businesses and groups already enjoying the use of a Personal Account, it's easy to upgrade to a Premier/Business Account.....Premier/Business accounts are also available to individuals who would like to take advantage of the premium features. However, no one will be forced to upgrade to a Business/Premier account. Personal Accounts will remain FREE for individual use!
Well, I AM an individual, an individual yyou hotly pursued to get your logo in all of my auctions. Now that my buyers have come to rely on the easy payment and fast shipping, you've decided to become my PARTNER, taking money directly out of my till, just like the frickin' Mafia! First, you're our friend, now, you want a "piece of our action".
And if I don't go along with your extortion, I'm at a competetive disadvantage to all the other sellers who will pay your fees.
This fiasco will be taught in business schools for years to come. "How to create an entirely new e-commerce category by bribing small time sellers to use a ALWAYS FREE service, and once you've established nearly complete reliance on your service, change you User Agreement and jack up the fees.
Brilliant!
I'm listing and relisting tonight, and removing your logo as I go.
posted on September 13, 2000 08:43:01 PM new
All right, Damon, I'll take you up on this.
I have about 10 auctions running right now. I had about 10 auctions running two weeks ago. I'm moving in about four months, and I'm trying to whittle down the amount of stuff I take with me; my plan is to post about a dozen items at a time, and probably do this every other week. Maybe 30 items a month.
Everything I am selling is mine -- mostly stuff that doesn't fit me any more, or books I've read and don't care to keep. I also craft, and I'm dragging out craft supplies I don't use.
posted on September 13, 2000 08:51:22 PM new
I would agree with BooksBooksBooks:
Stick to what you promised us when we signed up ... international payments and free transfers, and auction payments for personal users. That's ALL I need or want. The IRS, state and city call me a "hobby" ... selling things on eBay is NOT my main source of income. I was doing fine with accepting personal checks by mail, and can go RIGHT BACK TO IT if necessary.
I have ONE credit card and ONE bank account, so I can only have one PayPal account. If I switch to a business account, I will be payuying business account fees on PERSONAL transactions, like when my sister finally pays me back what she borrowed a couple of months ago. I don't want that to happen!
The shopping cart, instant purchase, sweeping funds, bulk invoicing ... use them for people with "real" businesses: they have business credit cards, websites where they sell stuff, resale tax numbers, dozens of transactions a week ...
posted on September 13, 2000 08:53:59 PM new
I can see where damon is coming from in this thread and this is the question I have been asking the same question all night, "what constitutes a business? Basically I think we are being polled so paypal can make a decision.
I paid for an auction tonight that was very clearly a business (1800 plus feedbacks and 7 pages of auctions) but was taking payments on an unverified, personal account. I think these are the types of people this warning was aimed at.
This just goes to prove the old saying "never say never". Paypal promised to never charge a fee and now find they can't afford to hold themselves to this.
To me, anyone who routinely receives more than about $200 a month is a business. But I have had months where I received way more than that when some of my trash turned out to be treasure. So maybe if paypal noticed that an acount consistently received over a set amount for 3 months in a row, they could then inform the account holder that unless they upgraded to business or premier, that amount received was going to be capped. I wouldn't like this but could understand it. After all, it is their business and if I don't like it I don't have to do business with them.
I also seem to remember ( but my memory may be faulty) that when I first signed up, paypal had a limit to how much you could charge at one time and/or per 6 month time frame, a minimum charges of $5 with the balance going into your account and a couple of other things that many users disliked. But as people complained about these limitations, paypal changed their TOS to make their customers happy.
Think how some of people would have howled if these had been grandfathered in and they were told that unless they unregistered and reregistered they couldn't have these benefits. Change is inevitable and sometime that change benefits you and sometimes it doesn't.
I know I am probably going to get blasted for this opinion but really think every one should just step back, calm down, think about it for a few days and then make their decision about paypal.
[ edited by sweil on Sep 13, 2000 08:57 PM ] edited because I am too tired to sepll sometimes. LOL
[ edited by sweil on Sep 13, 2000 09:00 PM ]
posted on September 13, 2000 08:59:44 PM new
How many transactions make a business hmmm good question.
I would concider anyone takeing $1000 or less a year on line any where a casual user personal user.
I would think anyone doing $500 to $999 on line any how in one month a bit more then a casual personal user, but still in the hobby class but should really want all the portection of a regular merchant type transaction and a honest hobbiest wouldnt object to the people perchaseing from them to have these protections too.verifying a checking account for this type of service only make good business sense in my mind.
anyone doing $500 or more a day or $4500 or more a week puts a person in what is a full blow business that would not only suport it self but up to two or three family members as Employees at min wage 8 hours per day five days a week. and still able to suport its self.
any one makeing this kind of transaction would be willing to pay a small price to protect then selves and custmers and have the shopping cart feature and not look like a business but even admit they are one. they might even go the few hundered dollars to incorporate to keep there personal life and sales totally seperate.
I think the trouble paypal is running in to here is that the most of auction user fall into the hobby category most of the time there is some far better months for sure.
for every $1000 in transactions there is up to $200 in ebay fees to pay and they have prolly invested up to $250 to $450 in inventory to make that and with what left they must go find more inventory to sell. buy gas for this hunt and when there done if the interest on the credit card they use to pay ebay fees didnt eat up what was left in the end of there month they may and this is a big may have made enough money to take a small family out to pizzahut for dinner for there effort
I dont personally think if paypal did make me pay a amall fee that I would just stop useing it for the few buyers who have used it it is Great and 1% to 3% wouldnt be a bad price to pay for a direct payment for these few sales.
I dont want to make this sound like a sellers sob story but facts are facts. there is three of us here in the same neighborhood shareing auction details watching these sites and selling and can tell you truely there are a few makeing a full time liveing and business out of this.
but in all honesty even if they dont want to admit it the two groups makeing the big bucks on these online auction is Ebay and the Post Office,sales at any of these auction sites not many will fall into a business category more then 3 months if that out of a year and even fewer would fall in that class 6 month out of a year.
in all fairness paypal has a right to charge what the market here will bare, and the fees should be based on two thing a set amount for a week or month like $250 a week $500 per month limit for personl use if you go over that or if you request more then say 2 complementary check per month,then the acount should be accessed at the full business rate at the end of each month.
why Isay this is because auction sales are up and down all over the board one week your in the money two weeks you might die with only a few sales some time non.
in any case I always was under the under standing paypal had a $2000 cap per month untill you confermed your address and $5000 a month after what they may be looking for with this business fee is the same type of monthly cap that would be fee free over that you are charge for all transaction for the month
but I think for this type of service you should provide buyers and sellers all the protection of any good online merchant service in which paypal seem to be a leader.
bank account verification is a nice thing but keep in mind you made paypal so easy to use and register to use your dealing with some who have mess up there credit and messed up in life some have no credit cards some even have been band for aperiod of time from haveing a checking account inside the USA for a period of time, so a fair % many not have checking accounts even if they have a credit card which any one can buy from high risk takeing companys today for as little as $89 for a $500 start limit to rebuild credit.
keep in mind you are also dealing with many people on fix incomes who never could have afforded a regular merchant account and others who are totally dependent on auction for there soul suport.
posted on September 13, 2000 09:00:17 PM new
I think your intent with this post is very disingenous. Are you trying to placate sellers who sell just a few items a month by throwing them a bone? You promised a service that would be "always free," then introduced new options and promised no one would be forced to upgrade. Now you're trying to make us look dishonest because we didn't upgrade to your new services as soon as they were announced.
The real issue here is not what constitutes a business. The issue is you have lied to sellers. I have no doubt this was your plan all along. You used to say, "we make money on the float." Now you're saying "we're asking you to pay your fair share."
This is a load of bull and your question is outrageous.
You would still have us believe that we won't be forced to upgrade, even though we are now in violation of your NEW terms of service. I'm tired of being lied to by big companies. I'm willing to downgrade my own business if necessary just to avoid dealing with this kind of chicanery. I don't need Paypal.
Funny thing is, I was just getting ready to upgrade my account as soon as the shopping cart was implemented. Now, forget it.
posted on September 13, 2000 09:04:08 PM new
Damon, I'd like to know what basis your company determines the "business" standing. I live in Pennsylvania and to conduct business one just needs to use their name and social security number to be a sole proprietor unless they want to create a business name for themselves. Simply having a name and social security number dosesn't mean that every one is in business in this state. If that were the case we'd be like New York and have tax agents running around trying to collect taxes on garage sales.
Your company is just like that state. Because someone has sold something doesn't mean they are in business. In the other huge thread going on this topic one person brought up a good point of the hobby versus business distinction observed by the IRS.
Just because your company says anyone who has sold more than one item is a business doesn't make it so. Your corporate attorneys also need to look into the legality of all of the people who never had an opportunity to view the fees and tiers involved in the Premiere and Business plans your company forced everyone to read about as we logged in. There was nothing on that page allowing anyone to review the terms of what their decision might cost them. Many people thought selecting one of the plan buttons (Premiere) was going to give them information but instead signed them up for that plan immediately with no questions asked.
Your company has violated the basic terms of contract law... offer, consideration and acceptance. There was nothing informing the people their final decision was being made immediately by making one mouse click. There was never an opportunity to review the terms before acceptance of the plan. Shame on your company and the underhanded tricks it just pulled.
People of Pennsylvania... if you are not happy with this situation immediately send PayPal an email telling them you are rescinding your decision made by clicking that button. Pennsylvania requires that all contracts have a 72 hour period in which it may be cancelled by either party. Immediately follow that email with a certified letter to PayPal repeating the same statement about your decision to revoke their statement that you have entered into an agreement with them.
I'm not sure what contract protections are in place in various states but check into it quickly. PayPal screwed us over, now it's time to screw back.
