posted on September 14, 2000 06:17:35 AM
[This is NOT a PayPal related thread, I promise!]
OK, here's the deal. I buy and sell on eBay. When I sell, I frequently use reserves. Why do I use reserves? Because I have found from personal experience that if I start the bidding high with no reserves nobody bothers even LOOKING at my auctions. And, unfortunately, I can't afford to start my auctions far below my cost and risk taking a loss [you know, if eBay crashes or something]. And I'm not at all ashamed to admit that I want as many early bids as possible, since the more early bids my items receive the more "attractive" they are likely to appear to other bidders and the more LATE bids I tend to get as a result.
Now, I know that some bidders don't like reserves. Perhaps even many [most?] bidders. Personally, I couldn't care less if an item has a reserve -- if I'm interested in it I'll bid, period -- but I am fully aware that my views are not universally shared. And because of this, I always say in all my auctions that I am happy to reveal my reserve to anybody who asks. My philosophy has always been that the people who take the time to e-mail and ask are interested and are more lilely to actually bid.
Well, it seems I was wrong, at least with regards to my philosophy. I do get lots of e-mails asking my reserve with just about every auction I run. But probably 95% of the time the person who asks never bids [in fact, they usually don't even bother responding to my e-mail, but that's another story]. And, before you ask, I try very hard to set "reasonable" reserves, which are usually at or slightly above, my actual costs.
So, here's what I'm thinking of doing... Instead of saying "I'm happy to tell my reserve to anyone who asks", I would say something like "If you place a bid and do not hit my reserve, please feel free to e-mail me and ask what the reserve is. I am not trying to pay games with you, and if you are serious about bidding I would be happy to share the reserve amount with you."
So... what do you think? I realize that this won't affect the people who already boycott my auctions because I have a reserve, but is it likely to drive away the people who currently bid? And, most importantly, do you think it would actually encourage any of the people who e-mail me about my reserve to bid?
Regards,
Barry
[ edited by godzillatemple on Sep 14, 2000 06:19 AM ]
posted on September 14, 2000 06:28:44 AM
Hi Barry,
I'm mostly a seller, just an occasional buyer, but, when I go to an auction I want all the information I need up front. I don't want to exchange email with the seller to find out more information, whether it be for a better description or to find out the reserve. Sometimes there isn't time.
I've seen several auctions that disclose the reserve and simply state that the reserve exists to protect the seller in case of an eBay outage. If you are willing to email the reserve, why not just add the reserve price to your description?
posted on September 14, 2000 06:44:18 AM
In your case, Barry, since you sell quality, valuable items, I can understand using a reserve to protect your investment and your butt in case of an eBay outage.
I think putting the reserve in the listing would be a better solution than encouraging people to e-mail. I tend to look at the Going, Going, Gone and Ending Today stuff. If I thought time was too thin, I'd move on. If the reserve was in the listing, I'd have all the info I needed right there.
You could try it with an item or two and see if it works out.
posted on September 14, 2000 06:46:43 AM
Using a reserve is good because you can start it low and the low starting price shows up on the search list of items. That gets bidders to your page.
When they get there, some will immediately leave when they see the reserve note. Other, more reasonable, bidders who are interested in the item will read the description.
So if you are willing to disclose the reserve, you might as well place it in the description. Unfortunately doing this may result in no bids from those who are not willing to meet your reserve, and so your item will look like it is not attractive because it has received few, if any, bids.
Not disclosing your reserve will require those interested in the item to actually make a bid, to see if they hit it. If they don't hit it at least you have got them to make a bid, and the more bids your item gets the more desireable it looks to others.
So I suggest not disclosing the reserve in your description, and not disclosing it to those who merely ask (as Barry said, they then may not place a bid at all).
So I would either not disclose it at all even if they ask, or I would require them to place a bid before asking. However, I think the latter is unnecessary and may put off bidders. Unnecessary because if their bid does not hit the reserve, the would likely not bid again after learning the reserve. You might get a second bid out of them by refusing to disclose since they might "stretch" a bit to see if they can hit it.
For the above reasons I would not disclose my reserve at all.
posted on September 14, 2000 07:08:43 AM
I understand your situation, as I've been there myself, and I appreciate your efforts to find a way around the problem.
Primary question is: If you're willing to reveal your reserve, why not just do it in the listing?
The intent of "Bid first, then you can ask me" may not be to "play games," but the effect is the same: it's annoying. In order to find out what you want for the item, I have to demonstrate my sincerity by bidding. Items with bids (whether the bids reach the reserve or no) generally get more hits than items that don't - so I feel like you're using my interest to rack up a bid for marketing purposes.
Now I know you'd never consider doing anything like that, but that's because I know you. If I didn't, I'd be seriously put off, your disclaimer notwithstanding.
posted on September 14, 2000 07:09:21 AM
Thanks for the responses. Personally, I think it's completely insane to have a reserve and then actually list the reserve in your description. It defeats the entire purpose, in my opinion. If I had my druthers [no relation, George], I would reveal my resevre to ANYONE. The fact that I am willing to do so via e-mail is simply a concession to the fact that some people are really bothered by reserves and supposedly won't bid at all unless they can find out what it is.
Bidders say they don't like it when sellers "play games" with them by having a hidden reserve. Well, as a seller I don't like bidders who "play games" with me by bidding the least amount possible rather than bidding what they actually are willing to pay for an item, or who ask my resevre and then don't bother bidding once they find out. The whole PURPOSE of a reserve is to encourage early bids, and revealing the reserve to somebody BEFORE they bid just defeats that purpose.
Barry
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The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
posted on September 14, 2000 07:19:22 AMborgt: "I've seen several auctions that disclose the reserve and simply state that the reserve exists to protect the seller in case of an eBay outage."
I'm sorry, but as a seller I can tell you right now that this is an utter CROCK. The reserve doesn't exist to protect the seller in case of an eBay outage. If the seller wants to be "protected" all he has to do is have a high starting bid. What a reserve does, on the other hand, is attract interest by encouraging early bid while at the same time protecting the seller in case of an eBay outage [or too low of a final bid price].
HCQ: "I feel like you're using my interest to rack up a bid for marketing purposes."
Well, in a sense that is EXACTLY what I am doing. The only difference is that if you are interested enough to actually BID my reserve I am also perfectly happy. Early bids are great, but HIGH bids are more important. But I won't lie and say that I don't want those early bids and use a reserve specifically to encourage them. Do I wish there was a better way? Sure. But the fact is that an auction that gets early bids tends to get later bids as well, whereas an auction that DOESN'T get early bids tends to get sniped at the last second for a bargain price.
Barry
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The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
[ edited by godzillatemple on Sep 14, 2000 07:20 AM ]
I like the reserve met as early as possible, but if at the beginning of the last day of the auction it has not been met I often make an addition with the simple statement "Reserve is $(whatever).
Many times this results in a bidder, most often the high bidder, seeming to go "Oh. OK", and bidding to reserve.
I do that as a matter of choice and usually only if the bidding is pretty close to reserve by itself.
Other times I just wait until auction end and offer the item to the high bidder at a price above the bid, blatantly circumventing the fee structure.
posted on September 14, 2000 07:23:14 AM
Well, at least you're being upfront about your ulterior motives
I guess we use reserves for somewhat different reasons. I use 'em ONLY because to list a widget with a $50 opening bid when all the other widgets have $10 opening bids is suicide, and I figure once I've got somebody to at least look at my stuff, they'll find my reserve (my "real" opening bid) - which I note in bold, no less, quite reasonable.
OTOH, lately I've started my quilts at what I'd used as reserves in the past, and I'm still getting lots of hits and bids, so maybe my assumption was wrong, or maybe....heck, I don't know.
posted on September 14, 2000 07:30:09 AMOther times I just wait until auction end and offer the item to the high bidder at a price above the bid, blatantly circumventing the fee structure.
posted on September 14, 2000 07:33:39 AM'zilla: The problem with saying anything negative, even in a positive way ("not playing games" is that people will likely focus on the negative and not see the "not". IOW, they'll remember you as a seller who's playing games. I'd leave off the second sentence.
Weird, but I really think that's human nature in a lot of cases.
posted on September 14, 2000 07:43:07 AM
Having been in both places....I don't mind revealing my reserve. I have on numerous occasions asked a seller "would you mind telling me what the reserve price is?" All but one was happy to do so. The only one that didn't emailed me and said "Bid on it and see"...maybe it was just a bad day for me but it ticked me off and I wouldn't even go back to his auctions!!! JMPO
posted on September 14, 2000 07:48:37 AM
Agreed. Never use any negative phraseology anywhere in a listing, not in the description, not in the TOS. Find positive terms to describe flaws, and make your conditions both reasonable and enjoyable.
Above all, (particularly you) Barry, cut out all hot air. They don't want to read it and they won't.
It already takes what seems to bidders to be interminable amounts of time to load your pretty colors and dancing bears.
Get your ego out of it (NOT particularly you, Barry).
posted on September 14, 2000 07:50:26 AM
I wouldn't use the sentences you posted. Just let it ride. I do like krs's idea, even though I have not seen it, it would probably get me to bid again.
I am like most bidders, I don't care if it has a reserve or not, just if it's something I want.
Ain't Life Grand...
posted on September 14, 2000 07:53:00 AM
I hate to be the one to say it, but telling prospective buyers that if they bid, they can then ask you your reserve, does strike me as playing games. For one thing, it goes without saying. ANYONE can query you on your reserve, at any time, period. It's always your right to refuse to disclose it (and it's also their right to acknowledge your response, I might add). Be aware that the buyer has only your word on what the reserve was, if it's not met, so any negotiations on price require a great deal of trust on the part of the buyer. This is compounded by the nature of your goods--expensive antique timepieces--whose value rests largely on condition, as you describe it.
Collectors who are willing to risk their bucks buying this way are looking for two things: rarity and price. If your watches are genuinely hard to find, you have the edge there. If you're underpricing the market on more easily found models, you have the edge there. Either way, IMO, you need an offset to the risks they feel they're taking buying something they haven't inspected themselves, on the word of someone they've never met. I haven't looked at your pages recently, so I don't know if you offer a guarantee, but I can tell you that they don't mean a lot to me when I buy.
An additional comment: The way the paragraph is worded, it gives me the sense that you're not negotiable on the reserve. If that's so, it runs counter to the practice of most of the sellers I've dealt with, who at least want to appear as if they're willing to come down. I hate to suggest fudging, but will remind you again that we don't know what the actual reserve is. Is it unethical or just good salesmanship to tell a bidder who topped at $550 on a watch with a $650 reserve that the reserve was $800 but you're willing to go to $650? Sorta like the MSRP game...
To conclude, I'd drop the entire paragraph. It's unnecessary and offputting, IMO.
posted on September 14, 2000 08:06:55 AM Is it unethical or just good salesmanship to tell a bidder who topped at $550 on a watch with a $650 reserve that the reserve was $800 but you're willing to go to $650? Sorta like the MSRP game...
Nevertheless you are posting in objection to a perception of playing games?
It is not only unethical, but in violation of ebay rules to make such statements and agreements during the course of an auction as it constitutes fee avoidance.
After auction end, ebay no longer has an interest in what happens as regards a person selling an item to another person.
posted on September 14, 2000 08:19:12 AMGlenda: You are, of course, absolutely correct. I guess it was just a none too subtle reaction to the many accusations I have received about "playing games" with the bidders simply by virtue of the fact that I use reserves.
SEABHS: I, too, have been in both situations, and I frequently will e-mail a seller to ask the reserve. Usually, though, it is only AFTER I have already placed a bid. And if I haven't placed a bid yet, I will place one as a courtesy to thank the seller for telling me.
krs: Pretty colors? Dancing bears? I do believe, sir, that you have mistaken me for another!
Pareau: I understand what you are saying. Perhaps I could change the wording to say "I'll be happy to tell you my reserve" instead of "please feel free to e-mail me and ask what the reserve is"? And no, as a general rule I am not negotiable on my reserves [although there have certainly been exceptions]. I don't set pie-in-the-sky high reserves just so I can avoid eBay fees by negotiating with the high bidder. My goal has always been to set resevres high enough to cover my costs plus a few bucks, and low enough so that they might actually get met early on and therefore attract new bidders. That's why things like the new "watch" feature and sniping [or anything else which encourages people to wait until the very end to bid] are so troublesome to me.
Thanks again for all the comments!
Barry
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The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
posted on September 14, 2000 08:30:46 AMBarry,
I did say "NOT particularly you" in the continuation of the dancing bears example, and I'll admit that lizards do not seem to dance very much, and even that they are unattractively hued.
posted on September 14, 2000 08:44:01 AM, I think it's completely insane to have a reserve and then actually list the reserve in your description. It defeats the entire purpose
Defeats WHAT purpose? Is your "purpose" something other than to sell your item at or over your reserve amount?
I don't, in general, dislike reserve auctions, even used them on occasion. But I do dislike it when I go in to view something & the current bid is FIVE times the opening bid & the reserve STILL hasn't been met. I can hit the back button pretty fast on those.
posted on September 14, 2000 08:48:12 AM
Could it be that the people who don't bid after finding out your reserve price simply find the reserve price to high?
I am not saying that your items are not valuable, but it is my opinion that people are looking for a bargin on ebay.
If I were to email to ask for a reserve price (which I don't do) and found the price to high, why would I bother bidding? Maybe the seller will 'deal' with me after the fact. Maybe not. Seems easier to just go find another item.
posted on September 14, 2000 09:01:57 AM
I said:
Is it unethical or just good salesmanship to tell a bidder who topped at $550 on a watch with a $650 reserve that the reserve was $800 but you're willing to go to $650? Sorta like the MSRP game...
krs declaimed:
Nevertheless you are posting in objection to a perception of playing games?
Yes, dear. Operative word: PERCEPTION. As in "perception is everything." Reality is what you make it.
krs further opined:
It is not only unethical, but in violation of ebay rules to make such statements and agreements during the course of an auction as it constitutes fee avoidance.
Now krs, get yourself more coffee and read what I wrote. I said "bidder who topped" and "reserve was," which indicate I'm talking about a closed auction. Bzzzzt! You lose that one! Neener neener nyaaah bwaaaah!
Godzillatemple, I think reserves are, to buyers, a negative. Why draw any attention to a negative? I don't think the paragraph helps, and it can hurt, even edited. There are some people who object to reserves being disclosed at all--why advertise such a policy and put them off? You're not selling the reserve, you're selling a watch; don't bog them down in the mechanics of your pricing. Keep the focus entirely on the item, and sell the heck out of it. That's how I'd do it, anyway. JMO.
I have no interest in internet sells. I'm a collector.
I do not like a lot of e-mails. I feel if need to question the seller, about the reserve price or shipping, handling & insurance, they don't need my bid.
Reserve Auctions. I like to bid on them in my field of interest. In most cases the Items are outstanding.
I will not bid on a reserve auction that states, the reserve will be given out when I bid, before I bid if I e-mail the seller or if the reserve is placed in the listing. In other words, I do not want the reserve given out during the life of the auction.
When sellers use the excuse, "I have a reserve to protect my investmet & for eBay outage" They have no faith in the Item they sell. A reserve is used to protect the value of the Item, not the seller.
I want the Item & the seller's TOS to make me want to Bid.
posted on September 14, 2000 09:18:10 AM
Unless it's my imagination running wild with me, it seems that items without a reserve end up selling for much higher than exact items with a reserve.
Personally, unless the reserve has been met or it is listed in the TOS, I usually pass them by instead of trying to play a guessing game as to how high the reserve is. If it is something I really really want, I might place the absolute highest price I would pay and see if it met the reserve; if not, I go on to the next one.
Sometime in the near future, I will be placing some of my grandparent's items up for sale on eBay for my mom. She wants a minimum price for them, so I will use a reserve, but I plan to state what the reserve is in the item's description. It doesn't bother me to put it out in the open, because I am not trying to hide it, just trying to get the best price without giving it away. JMHO
