VeryModern
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posted on November 20, 2000 11:57:04 AM new
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20001120/bs/yahoo_stock_dc_4.html
NEW YORK (Reuters) - Shares of U.S. Internet giant Yahoo Inc. fell on
Monday after a French court ordered the company to bar French users from
sites selling Nazi memorabilia......
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reddeer
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posted on November 20, 2000 12:30:43 PM new
I think it's safe to say that eBay will soon add Nazi items to the "no longer allowed" list.
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macandjan
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posted on November 20, 2000 02:22:07 PM new
[ edited by macandjan on Dec 6, 2000 03:32 PM ]
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stockticker
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posted on November 20, 2000 02:35:37 PM new
Macandjan - Perhaps your point of view might be different if U.S. had ever been occupied by Nazi Germany?
Regarding "stupid governments" - people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones - look to your Presidental election fiasco.
Irene
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capriole
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posted on November 20, 2000 02:43:53 PM new
I say party on.
Want to collect or sell nazi gear? Set up your own niche market a la ebay's and use use the ebay proprietary auctioning software run it!
And you can let whatever country in it you like!
Be as fascist as you wanna be.
 
 - ubb test
edited for syntax
[ edited by capriole on Nov 20, 2000 02:45 PM ]
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mrpotatoheadd
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posted on November 20, 2000 02:55:19 PM new
In part, due to the help of people with one of the "stupid governments" (stupid governments- is that redundant, or what?) mentioned above, the French are now dealing with nazi memorabilia rather than with an actual nazi government.
But I'm sure everybody already knew that.
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stockticker
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posted on November 20, 2000 03:04:01 PM new
This sort of reminds me of this thread:
http://www.auctionwatch.com/mesg/read.html?num=28&thread=30741&id=30741
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Crystalline_Sliver
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posted on November 20, 2000 03:07:40 PM new
Actually, it's dumb laws (and rulings and acts and whatever else that goes here) like this that hamper the growth of the Internet.
I know this is a point to question, but what gives the right of a French court to censor a US based server? The site in question is auctions.yahoo.com, which is techniclly a US server.
I felt sorry for the Aussies when the goverment banned them from looking at porn on the net, but this takes the cake.
:\\\"Crystalline Sliver cannot be the target of spells or abilities.
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stockticker
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posted on November 20, 2000 03:09:10 PM new
It's easy to tell the other person/nation to "let go" when you have no comprehension of the pain that other person/nation is or has gone through.
Somehow the argument to "let go" so that someone else can make a buck isn't very convincing.
Irene
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stockticker
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posted on November 20, 2000 03:12:39 PM new
Crystalline_Sliver: Americans don't have the right to decide the rights of French citizens. The French people are the ones who elect their own government and they alone have to power to change it.
Irene
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Crystalline_Sliver
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posted on November 20, 2000 03:36:59 PM new
But still, they want Yahoo to close a part of their site that is expressly is a US server.
Their laws (techniclly speaking) cannot shut down a part of Yahoo's site that is a US site.
If they are allowed to do this, who else is next?
I don't wanna go into dangerous waters here, but all i'm gonna say is, hopefully Yahoo fights back.
(NOTE: I don't advocate Nazism or any of their beliefs. So, don't even go that route.)
:\\\"Crystalline Sliver cannot be the target of spells or abilities.
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sg52
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posted on November 20, 2000 04:44:08 PM new
Americans don't have the right to decide the rights of French citizens.
"rights" is used in two profoundly different ways.
On the one hand, there is the "right to be left alone by the government". Our first amendment rights are of that type (and generally the first 10 amendments).
On the other hand, there is the "right to use the force of law to compel some behavior of someone else". Here we find, for example, the "right to free medical care".
No one has any problem with the first type; they seldom conflict with one another.
The second type of "right" is problematic because they are directly contractictory to the first type. If France were to guarantee their citizens to the "right to methane free air", and pressure the British government to criminalize passing gas in southeastern England, they would be soundly tromping on the rights of Britons to be left alone by their government. Britons would have a lot to say about that, legitimately so.
So it is with Nazi stuff. There is just no way that France is going to establish a "right" of French citizens to surf the web without encountering Nazi paraphernalia. It does make an interesting story however, along with cementing the image of France as a country which, well, occasionally looks very foolish.
sg52
[ edited by sg52 on Nov 20, 2000 04:44 PM ]
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macandjan
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posted on November 20, 2000 05:01:58 PM new
[ edited by macandjan on Dec 6, 2000 03:32 PM ]
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drexelantiques
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posted on November 20, 2000 05:33:42 PM new
Nazi items are a part of history. Now I am sure I will misquote this, but isn't there a saying like "Those who forget history, are doomed to repeat it."? Nazi items are reminders of an evil event in the past, without those concrete reminders, that memory will fade to legend. it shouldn't. Denying something happened, doesn't make it go away.
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stockticker
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posted on November 20, 2000 05:55:20 PM new
{{ sigh }} You guys don't get it.
An auction is a transaction involving payment and delivery. In the case of a transaction between a U.S. seller and a French buyer, the payment part of the transaction is taking place in the U.S. and delivery part of the transaction is taking place on French soil. The French have every right to control what takes place on French soil.
YOU CANNOT HAVE A TRANSACTION IF DELIVERY IS NOT ALLOWED. French authorities have every right to disallow the transaction because PART of the transaction is against French law and is taking place on French soil.
If you have no desire to respect the laws of the countries to which you wish to export items, then perhaps you should just remain domestic sellers.
Irene
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macandjan
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posted on November 20, 2000 06:05:09 PM new
[ edited by macandjan on Dec 6, 2000 03:33 PM ]
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CAgrrl
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posted on November 20, 2000 06:35:44 PM new
drexelantiqus- I agree with you to the letter.
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stockticker
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posted on November 20, 2000 06:37:23 PM new
Would you agree it is reasonable for the French to be told they may not have any auctions for Confederate items on their server if the item becomes illegal to own here?
I don't understand. The comparison is not valid. French courts have not told Yahoo what they may or may not sell on the site. What they have said is that that French users may not visit the Yahoo site if certain items are sold there.
Irene
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macandjan
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posted on November 20, 2000 06:53:55 PM new
[ edited by macandjan on Dec 6, 2000 03:33 PM ]
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sg52
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posted on November 20, 2000 06:55:49 PM new
The reason the French look foolish is not because they lack the "right" to issue legal orders regarding things which happen in America, but because they so obviously lack the means to do anything about it, except perhaps to run Yahoo out of any existing physical presence in France. I guess they could bomb Yahoo headquarters in California, but that seems unlikely.
Countries can and do take a detailed interest in behavior going on in foreign countries, but they must have some credible means to do something about it if they expect not to be laughed at when they make demands.
"Might makes right"
sg52
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macandjan
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posted on November 20, 2000 06:56:17 PM new
[ edited by macandjan on Dec 6, 2000 03:33 PM ]
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bhearsch
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posted on November 20, 2000 07:00:58 PM new
I don't see any way to implement this court order short of Yahoo totally removing France's access to it's site. I do hope they don't take the easy way out and ban Nazi items from all of their sites just to comply with the French law since that does interfere with OUR right of free speech. I don't sell Nazi memorabilia but I strongly support the right of someone else to do so and I really hate to see yet more items being barred from the auction sites.
However, Yahoo will probably end up banning all Nazi memorabilia since that's the most cost effective solution and, yes, eBay will soon follow.  It's getting pretty bad when the list of banned items is longer than my attention span.  Here is eBay's current policy regarding the sale of Nazi items:
QUOTE
"You may not list or bid on items related to Nazi Germany if you reside in Germany, France or Austria. Sellers may not ship these items into these three countries, or accept bids from users there.
If you live in the United States or other country that permits the sale of items related to Nazi Germany, you may list such items so long as you indicate in the listing that you will not ship outside the United States. If you want to make the item available world wide, you may still list such items, but you must clearly state that you will not ship the item to Germany, France or Austria. You may do so by indicating that you will not ship to Europe when completing the "Where will you Ship?" section of the listing page. As an alternative, you may clearly state in your item description that you will not ship the item to France, Germany or Austria."
END QUOTE
Blanche
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sg52
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posted on November 20, 2000 07:01:37 PM new
French courts have not told Yahoo what they may or may not sell on the site. What they have said is that that French users may not visit the Yahoo site if certain items are sold there.
stockticker I think you have it a bit twisted.
The French court ordered Yahoo to prevent anyone in France from seeing the items for sale, or pay a fine for each day of non-compliance.
The order applied to Yahoo in America, not to anyone in France. That's why it seems so typically French.
sg52
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iowaantiques
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posted on November 20, 2000 07:12:54 PM new
Please remember the old engineering adage: The French copy nobody and nobody copies the French.
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macandjan
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posted on November 20, 2000 07:58:31 PM new
[ edited by macandjan on Dec 6, 2000 03:34 PM ]
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stockticker
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posted on November 20, 2000 09:19:10 PM new
Macandjan:
If you want free trade throughout the world, a good place to start is with your own government. Lobby them to lift their restrictions on imports from other countries such as Cuba before you criticize other countries' restrictions on imports from the U.S.
Irene
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reddeer
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posted on November 20, 2000 10:17:13 PM new
"{{ sigh }} You guys don't get it.
An auction is a transaction involving payment and delivery. In the case of a transaction between a U.S.seller and a French buyer, the payment part of the transaction is taking place in the U.S. and delivery part of the transaction is taking place on French soil. The French have every right to control what takes place on French soil.YOU CANNOT HAVE A TRANSACTION IF DELIVERY IS NOT ALLOWED. French authorities have every right to disallow the transaction because PART of the transaction is against French law and is taking place on French soil. If you have no desire to respect the laws of the countries to which you wish to export items, then perhaps you should just remain domestic sellers."
............................................
Hmmmmmm. I fail to follow your logic.
It seems to me the the French court/judge ordered Yahoo to prevent anyone in France from viewing the items for sale, not from importing them?
What gives a French court the authority to not allow a French citizen from purchasing an item on US/Canadian soil, and having it shipped to same? Perhaps they own property in North America & house their collection here?
The whole concept of not allowing certain countries to even view items on US servers is asinine IMO.
Can a US court decide that I can't allow US citizens from viewing Cuban cigars on my Canadian website?
Where does it end?
[ edited by reddeer on Nov 20, 2000 10:18 PM ]
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Pocono
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posted on November 20, 2000 10:33:18 PM new
Damn ingrates...that's what they are!
I'll never eat their fries, toast, dressing, or crullers again.
oh, and those little daisies better remember who saved their butts from those nazi's!
Dang snail eatin' ingrates...
.
Amendment to the above statement:
I still reserve all rights to still look at their french bikinis in that sports illustrated special though.
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stockticker
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posted on November 20, 2000 11:12:08 PM new
Pocono:
Perhaps if the rest of the world (including Canada) hadn't gone to war against the Nazis in 1939 while the U.S. remained neutral, you might be living today in a Nazi-occupied U.S.
Irene
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Pocono
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posted on November 20, 2000 11:19:59 PM new
Irene,
That was meant in jest, to lighten the tone is all.
I mean, do you seriously think that I would EVER stop eating french crullers?
Come on now...
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