posted on November 28, 2000 01:41:07 PM new
I know I should not have accepted it, but I had a Canadian buyer on a lot in July who remitted with a check payable in Canadian dollars. The total amount due for the lot was $425.00 plus shipping (which was nominal, it was a stamp). Within a week of auction close this check arrives for $700.00 CANADIAN dollars with an apology for the headache but explaining that the check amount should cover shipping, any bank fees and a few dollars extra. OK, Ben calls the bank to find out details. Bank says check converted to US funds will yield about $439.00, there is a $2.00 fee for deposting the item and there is a 30 day hold on Canadian checks.
I notify my customer that there will be a 30 day delay in shipping his order. He is not happy, but agrees to wait.
Ben deposits check in bank on July 13, ships customers order 30 days later. On SEPTEMBER 29(!) Ben gets notice from bank that this check was drawn on a CLOSED account and is socked for $477.50. This check was marked "account closed" by senders bank on 7/16 or 7/18 (date unclear). Ben's bank deducts $459. for the check, which they claim is THEIR rate of exchange, insisting they are now SELLING the check, not BUYING it and thus the amount differs. In addition I am assessed a $10.00 charge for return of a deposit item, and another $8.50 phantom charge which the bank says is their cost.
The bank insists the 30 day hold does not guarantee the check cleared, it is only their guideline for release of funds. They claim they are immune from UCC or State banking laws for timely return of items - that none of these provisions cover foreign checks. In short they say I am on the hook. I cannot contact buyer, he is now NARU. Do I have ANY recourse against my bank? It just aint fair!
posted on November 28, 2000 01:48:46 PM new
OH, BTW, when I got this check back I called the buyers bank (CIBC). This account was OPEN on 7/13, it was closed 2 days later.
CIBC would not tell me if there was enough in the account on 7/13 to cover the check. I suspect there was and that it was out and out fraud.
posted on November 28, 2000 02:55:56 PM new
Oh my gosh Ben, I would just sh**t!! I'm with the other one; I'd call the RCMP and see what goes. Isn't it a crime to write bad checks? That's a whoppin' load of money to lose! And that's just the real bad part, is you just lose! Alot of ppl don't have that kind of money sitting in their accounts; it could really hurt! Sorry Ben, next time, call the bank and make sure the funds are available before you send it out. Good luck.
posted on November 28, 2000 03:48:01 PM new
Next time insist on an International Postal MO from Canada, they cost $3.50 Cdn., last time I purchased one.
posted on November 28, 2000 03:59:23 PM new
If they are still receiving email---send them an email and tell them that you will be submitting this item to their local Credit Bureau---and it will be on their Credit Rating ---which will completely impede any car purchases, bank loans, credit card applications for years to come.
How you go about doing that---I don't know--but it sounds good. Someone here must know how to do credit bureau submissions.
posted on November 28, 2000 04:05:00 PM new
This story wouldn't be much different from anywhere else.
There is no regulation which precludes the bank from reclaiming funds when the check is not paid, nor from charging fees which can be a lot higher than the $25 or so in this story.
I refuse all checks not in $US or lacking US routing numbers; this unfortunately includes "Eurocheques", which some Europeans mistakenly believe are USA banking system compliant if they're made out in $US.
The delay and extra fees were caused by a requirement for manual handling.
posted on November 28, 2000 05:02:30 PM new
[b]reddeer:[/b} Thank you for your advice to contact RCMP. I did call this afternoon and was told my best course of action was to file a civil suit, which would have to be done in the jurisdiction of the buyer. Amazingly enough, they also said that depending on the financial status of the buyer the court may or may not order remuneration. Is this NUTS? Its FRAUD! Canadian laws are UNREAL.
MrsWells: Thank you as well. Due to a long standing relationship with my bank, any funds I deposit are immediately available. The bank told me they [normally] hold Canadian checks for 30 days. That, I assumed, was the longest it could take for a check to be returned unpaid. A very expensive lesson.
Zazzie: His emails do not bounce, they just go unanswered. I have done what you suggest and added a twist. I told him I had a sister in the next town and that I would be visiting over the holidays. Maybe if he thinks I will be that close I might visit and he will cough-up. Here's hoping!
sg52: This story is quite a bit different than anywhere else. If this were a US check returned after 30 days the bank has no recovery recourse whatsoever. UCC is very clear in timeframes allowed a bank for returns. My contention is that the UCC does apply once the check is in the USA, which it appears to have been within one week of deposit. The check [apparently] sat on someone's desk for almost 10 weeks.
With regard to charges a bank may charge, they must be stated in bank policy. This is also covered in several subsections of Chapter 2. Whether I will contest the $8.50 phantom charge I have not yet decided, it is a small part of the amount lost, and I am still investigating what recourse, if any, I have against my bank for the FULL amount. The fault of the late return lies not with CIBC, this check was returned from them no later than July 18. I did not receive notice of it until September 29!
anishnabeg: Thanks - looks interesting. I did not have the time to fully read, but I have bookmarked it and will go back tomorrow. It does appear by the form to fill out that they only take complaints that were paid in US dollars, but its worth a try and I will do so tomorrow. Thanks again!
What really galls me is that in the end I PAID about $50.00 out of pocket for the PRIVILIGE of sending a free $425. stamp to a con. Really burns my tail!
posted on November 28, 2000 07:21:07 PM new
I feel bad for you.
When I first sold on eBay, I allowed international transactions, and every single one of them was a nightmare, especially from Canada.
Personally, I think the Canadian crooks know that it is hard to get justice over the borders.
That is why all of the telemarketing scans have moved to Canada. Canada is getting like the former Soviet Union; overrun by criminals with no effective policing.
I doubt you will ever see your money, but if you have learned not to do business with Canadians, then it was probably worth it.
posted on November 28, 2000 08:03:42 PM new
Hay moderator i really think you should watch what people say about Canada...there are a lot of canadian's including myself who dislike what was just said!!!!!!!!And PRINTSELLER i have had checks bounce from American's does that mean your country is going to waste No!!!!! You do not paint everyone with the same brush or you will not be in bussiness very long!!!!!
posted on November 28, 2000 08:23:58 PM new
NOW I KNOW !!!! YOU JUST DO NOT READ ...I AM CANADIAN....AND IT WAS NOT YOUR COMMENT ABOUT SELLING TO INTERNATIONAL SELLERS THAT I FOUND RUDE STUPID..IT WAS THE COMMENT ABOUT CANADIANS , THAT I FOUND RUDE AND STUPID....AS I STATED BEFORE YOU DO NOT HAVE TO PAINT EVERYONE WITH THE SAME BRUSH ...AND SAY WE ARE ALL THE SAME....YOU KEEP THOSE KIND OF COMMENTS AND FEELING TO YOURSELF..THIS IS NOT THE PLACE TO EXPRESS HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT A PARTICUAL COUNTRY !!!!
posted on November 28, 2000 08:24:13 PM new
printseller,
Your comments have come very close to crossing the line. I suggest you acquaint yourself with the AW Community Guidelines, particularly concerning basic etiquette, before posting again. To continue in this manner may jeopardize your posting privileges.
posted on November 28, 2000 09:36:31 PM new
Ben the RCMP didn't tell you everything.
The cheque is over $80.00 so you can call the police in the buyers area and
lay charges of fraud.
Once he is charged and convicted ( time consuming for you) you can take him/her to
small claims court a easily win.
The one caveat here; is that you contacted the buyer after the cheque bounced.
When the cheque is over $80.00 and bounces NEVER try to contact the person
who wrote the cheque.
The cheque is a contract.
Once you contact the person it implies you are forming a new contract, so
you can get paid.
Bad cheque over $80.00 = charge him through the proper authorities. (period)
Once charged and convicted you have the courts on you side.
After all that, the person is probably a low life and the courts will order him/her to
pay $5 a week (no interest) till it is paid.
When he/she misses one payment you start all over.
Unfortunately, this buyer was Canadian, so some on this page, are calling us all bums.
I have many American customers and I think if an American did this to you,
you would have very similar problems.
Best of Luck
International Money Orders or Credit Card payments have a future.
posted on November 29, 2000 05:38:15 AM new
Printseller
"I doubt you will ever see your money, but if you have learned not to do business with Canadians, then it was probably worth it."
What an incredibly racist remark.
If the problem you had was with a Black American would you have said: "I doubt you will ever see your money, but if you have learned not to do business with Black Americans, then it was probably worth it"?
There are hundreds of Canadians who post and lurk on these boards and IMHO, you owe us one very large appology.
Personally, I am very offended by your remarks.
Bill
typo
[ edited by cdnbooks on Nov 29, 2000 05:39 AM ]
posted on November 29, 2000 06:31:23 AM new
cdnbooks-
I don't agree with printseller's comments, but since when is nationality racial? I think it is fair to say printseller's comments about Canadians are bigoted, but certainly not racist.
rca001
posted on November 29, 2000 06:50:28 AM new
hi [oldapostle:[/b] I called the RCMP this morning again and mentioned what you said. Now their position is different. They tell me that since I am American they will not be able to assist me at all, I don't know why. The said to contact a Canadian attorney. Hardly seems worth it for $425.00. I intend to do some research on the web later today.
printseller: You misinterpreted my post completely. By no means did I infer that I would not do business with Canadians. Probably 15% of my business comes from Canada, and as a whole the deals are trouble-free. This is the first [and last] time I ever had a customer remit in Canadian dollars. Most foreigners send CASH, and most send it unregistered. I had one send $800.00 cash from France, $400.00 each in two envelopes. Sender thought it was safer to send two, lol. I have no problem whatsoever with Canadians. I live on the US Canadian border and am in Canada at least twice a week. You, sir, should take a ride across the border and have a look. Not only are Canadians friendly and forthright, they have pride in their grounds. The difference between USA and Canada is remarkable and its sad. Our politicians over here keep trying to figure out why all the tourists run to Canada - sheesh. Now the US dollar is worth almost $1.55 in Canada which makes shopping there a real bargain (in most cases). So please, lets keep the thread on track. If you choose not to deal with Canadians it is your loss. I was defrauded in this case by a Canadian, but it was due to my own ignorance.
My only reason for posting was in the case someone here had experienced a similar problem and had a suggestion.
posted on November 29, 2000 11:49:04 AM new
Personaly I love selling to the Canadian people and I thank each and everyone one of you who have done business with me in the past and those who will do business with me in the future!!!
posted on November 29, 2000 11:53:36 AM new
I sell internationally, but I state that all payments must be in US funds. I recently had a MONEY ORDER bounce from a Canadian but I believe that was a bank error. Other than that, I've never had a problem with a Canadian or any other international payment.
Checks can bounce from a US buyer to a US seller, or internationally - it does not matter. I no longer accept checks from ANYONE because of the high risk. One month alone I had 10 checks bounce. When I state I no longer accept checks on this board many try to criticize saying how wrong it is, and how uncommon it is to get a bounced check, etc. Well I'm not taking that risk, and just because one person doesn't get many (or ANY) bounced checks does not mean the same is for others. I'm seeing more and more threads like this about bounced checks and "how to handle them??". My answer is don't accept them to begin with!
Benny: I sure do sympathize with you! I would have probably had a heart attack if a check for that amount bounced! I hope you are able to get your money back somehow and I hope the guy who wrote you the check to begin with is CAUGHT and dealt with appropriately. I don't think not selling to Canadians or any other international buyer is the answer - but I would definitely reconsider accepting personal checks if I were you. (From anyone). More and more people are having problems with bounced checks.
posted on November 29, 2000 12:36:20 PM newksterni: Info. was sent to you, I hope it IS the same person - we'll go after him if it is!
ExecutiveGirl: I am not criticizing your method of conducting business, but for me, personal checks present little risk. I have sold perhaps 3000 lots on ebay, probably 1500 paid with personal checks. Since Feb. 1999 I have had TWO checks returned. One for twenty some dollars which the buyer immediately made good (with bank fees), and THIS one.
Although I state in my TOS that personal checks are held for 10 days pending clearance, in reality I ship 99% the same day. My criteria for holding a check are:
1) Amount exceeds $100.00
2) check # is low (in the 100's)
3) check appears to be written by a child
So far so good. This one I held for the recommended time and still got zapped. While there is some risk to accepting personal checks, I feel I would hinder sales if I did not accept them. I deal in collector stamps and I am delighted to report that most collectors are kind and above all HONEST.
Thanks to all for the advice, don't suppose there will be a happy ending here - but I appreciate the input.
posted on November 29, 2000 12:37:13 PM newExecutive Girl ...... I thought your PO said they would cash the Cdn International Postal MO for you?
Haven't you attempted to do so yet?
posted on November 29, 2000 12:40:25 PM new
Reddeer:
I had posted on my other thread that I went back to my bank and they have submitted the MO again to see if it would go through. My PO said if it was returned again by my bank that they would cash it for me. But I have to wait and see if it's returned by my bank again first.
You state one of your criteria for holding checks are:
2) check # is low (in the 100's)
I can open a brand new bank account today, which would be check #0001. I can order checks through just about any service and say that I want my first book of checks to start with #5001 if I wanted.
posted on November 29, 2000 12:49:33 PM newExecutiveGirl: Point well taken. Benny is one that does that when he opens a new account. You are correct, a good con would do the same. If I have a first-time buyer for a large dollar amount I might hold the check. There is one more criteria I use - I CHECK FEEDBACK.
There are several philatelic organizations also and if my buyer is a member of one I will fire off the lot AHEAD of payment. Still good as gold here.
I do not know in what you deal, but I consider myself very fortunate to work with stamp collectors, they are a great bunch.
Ben
PS I do have my share of non-payers, but this I have little problem with, I just consider it an inconvenience.
posted on November 29, 2000 02:11:09 PM new
ExecutiveGirl .... Ok, thanks for the update.
I have no idea why "some" US banks have a problem with International Postal MO's?
Benny ..... I think it depends on what you sell with regards to accepting, or not accepting, personal checks? Some categories are plagued with deadbeats & bad check writers. I too accept personal checks and out of 5-6 hundred have never had a problem, even on amounts over $500.
Oh, and with along the same lines ExecutiveGirl, with the exception of Postal Mo's, most MO's and Cashier's checks can also have a Stop Payment put on them.
posted on November 29, 2000 02:12:30 PM new
And a BIG thank you to those of you who do not banish an entire Country from your auctions, due to the actions of a few bad apples.
Amazingly enough, they also said that depending on the financial status of the buyer the court may or may not order remuneration. Is this NUTS? Its FRAUD! Canadian laws are UNREAL.
