posted on December 2, 2000 07:01:39 AM
I read in another thread that yet another auction site is closing its doors. Posters lamenting the lack of competition for eBay.
I was recently approached to participate in beta testing for a suite of auction seller tools. In just a few weeks, there have already been two misstatements from this company regarding the pay/benefits for my services. It's starting to sound like Paypal all over again, and it looks like I will have to end my association.
Anyway, it's led me to made the following observations. First of all, the wannabe-eBay auction sites just don't get it. Their main concern is not providing a valuable service, but instead cashing in on eBay's success: More accurately, cutting themselves a slice of eBay's pie. Yahoo and Amazon aside, the fledgling auction sites (including one which blatantly ripped off eBay's home page) simply don't understand the basis for eBay's success. And all the venture capital in the world won't change that.
Second, many businesses have sprung up catering to eBay users by offering auction management tools. Some of these tools are useful, many just add useless baggage. It's become common for these sellers to offer their services at little or no cost until they've built up a customer base, then increase the fees once customers are hooked. And I don't mean just Paypal. Their interest is in making money, not in serving the auction community.
eBay's success wasn't based upon fancy advertising or great programming ability. eBay's success (I mean the model they used several years ago) could be summed up in a single word: FUN. It was fun to shop for items in an online flea market environment, fun to find that sought-after piece for one's collection, and fun to interact with regular folks across the country and even around thw world. As eBay has tried to make its site palatable for the masses, a whole new breed of buyers and sellers moved in. Buyers expect eBay to be an online version of Macy's. Sellers think they can simply transfer their retail model, or else use eBay as a clearinghouse for junk they can't unload. Even eBay has lost sight of the original factors which made it such an enjoyable pastime. In short, no one who doesn't actually buy or sell at eBay can understand its success.
We, the people, made eBay what it is today. I don't blame Pierre for failing to maintain eBay as it should have been. He stuck with eBay longer than I, and probably most of us, would have done. Who knows how any of us would have reacted with several billion new-found dollars in our pocket. I can tell you, though, that the venture capitalists just don't get it.
Don't look for a new auction site to appear like Goliath and topple eBay overnight. Not gonna happen. Microsoft tried it and failed. All Microsoft could do was force eBay to close a few auctions. eBay sellers have been clamoring for a new venue for years now. The answer is easy. Any new auction site hoping to compete with eBay should cater to specialty collectors/sellers, should be free, and should be committed for the long haul. That's how eBay did it. Venture capitalists who think they can come along, steal eBay's customers and walk away with the pie are dreaming. Their eye is on the prize, not on offering a valuable, useful product.
We should never forget that WE are what makes eBay fun. Not Topps, or Ford/GM, or Sotheby's, or all the fancy bold, highlighted or featured listing enhancements in the world. If you've ever gotten up at 5:00 a.m. to go flea marketing, and found that one in a million item, you know what I mean. If the closest to eBay you've ever come is the stocks page in the Wall Street Journal, you'll probably never understand.
posted on December 2, 2000 08:23:02 AM
What sentimental tripe! I think I'm gonna cry.
Pierre was/is an astute entrepenuer with an idea that worked. He invested, I read, $400,000 of his own money to startup ebay and he played the community card to the max. Though he could now, I don't think then that he was able to throw that kind of money around just to have fun.
'Dem guys understand very well what makes ebay work, but there really can't be more than one of it. Ebay was firstest with the mostest and everybody else HAS to be limited to trying to grab a piece of the pie.
Microsoft was forcing the closure of sales of it's software long before they started an auction site. They've always been tough on ripoffs and copycats. Your implication that doing so is a last resort sort of peevishness is not correct.
Whatever the auxilliary companies offering management services has to do with your point, they are a separate competitive endeavor serving the auctioning community (and one of them, at least, does it extremely well. You are looking at it).
Really like the "We, the people" business. You'll never get pestered over copyright infringement using that one. Of course customers make ebay go. Customers make every business go.
What is it now, over 20 million registered users? Ebay is a great big engine powerful enough to defeat all comers. It's your fabled ebay that does whatever it legally can to stop it's competition.
Ebay is a business, Homer, it always was. If they've used a model it's probably Microsoft.
posted on December 2, 2000 09:08:59 AM
"Buyers expect eBay to be an online version of Macy's."
Exactly! Buyers think they should be able to return items like in a retail store. For crying out loud, it's an auction! All sales are final just like in any auction.
Who are the majority of bidders at RL auctions? Dealers...not consumers. And this is where the online auction format is heading.
Consumers just want to buy what they want when they want it, with no waiting.
When online auctions were new, it was fun and exciting for the buyers. But that excitement has worn off.
Any company that starts a new auction site now would be a darn fool to expect success.
posted on December 2, 2000 09:26:27 AM
I disagree with Jake. I have been in Online auctions as a seller for over two years now. I have used the big three's services and frankly in my opinion it's about arrogance and ego more than anything.
Ebay/Pierre/Meg have refused to listen to the people who have made them MULTI million/billionaires.
It's the small vendors, not the Topps or bigger guys. Why are those companies even using Ebay? It's because of what us smaller folks have built.
Don't get me wrong. Ebay has done some good stuff but their attitudes are impossible. ZERO seller support.
I switched to Amazon over a year ago and many of the same problems were there too. They basically didn't listen to sellers and bidder to exploit a great opportunity.
They had/have the best interface as far as selling goes. They had the best support. Instead of building on that they tinkered it to death.
Amazon offered photo's before Ebay. They had Amazon Payments before Billpoint (and they still are the best payment service in my opinion)
No, one day, soon, some suit somewhere is going to figure it out and Ebay will get toppled or Ebay will change the way it does business. Nobody is the only game in town forever.
posted on December 2, 2000 09:36:35 AM
KRS, I see you're back in the eBay Outlook with your usual putdowns and insults. Your comments have little to do with my original post, but that's not surprising.
I do agree with one point you make. I also find the AuctionWatch forums to be a very valuable tool. I haven't used AW's listing tools but I am grateful for the services they provide.
In my book, AW "gets it," but sadly they are the exception to the rule.
posted on December 2, 2000 09:40:08 AM
I have to agree with all of you.
(a bit of each one)
When ebay started, it WAS FUN.
Losing most of the time,(to the same people you were selling to and buying from on other items) but when you won, the sellers were friendly, and the buyers would always pay.
I was like a little kid in the beginning.
Running to the post office the next morning after winning, buying a Money-Order (for faster shipping), and usually sending the payment by priority mail. Even if it was a $5.00 item.
Then, watching the mail daily, waiting for my little trinkit to arrive, usually about 2 weeks after I sent payment.
IT WAS FUN!
Feedback meant something, and one neg was a BIG deal.
No complaining, no scams, no bull, JUST FUN!
No postage ripoffs, no big business, JUST FUN!
Some of you know what I mean, others will never know, but at one time, ebay WAS a community, and it WAS FUN.
Sadly though, it aint fun no more.
Ken is right too.
Pierre knew what he was doing, and held the reigns longer then expected.
Look, he did the smartest things to benefit HIM, just like you or me would have done.
He was a community member himself in the beginning, and accessible...REALLY!!
But things change, and ebay was thrust into the mainstream never to return to it's past "coziness".
Other sites will never succeed now, only because the masses are trained to stay where the numbers are.
I guess you can count me among the masses, cause where else can you go?
posted on December 2, 2000 09:44:25 AMtwinsoft I read your comments more acceptingly than some, but I'll register my disagreement just the same. I suspect that's why you post your essay, it's surely why I post mine.
Ebay may well have been more fun for some in the Good Ol Days than it is today.
But eBay has always been about money. eBay's money. Seller's money. Buyer's money. Your money. And my money. Along came stockholder money, and indeed this startged driving the boat in an different course.
"Firstest with the mostest" is indeed correct. eBay succeeded by being ok but mostly first. They struck a "positive feedback system", where success breeds success and where success stifles competition. Sellers come to eBay because they get the best prices. Buyers come because they can't find stuff anywhere else (or if they do find it, it's so wrapped up in reserves or high bids that there's no chance for a bargain).
eBay has stumbled, and the well financed competition has risen slightly during those stumbles, but there was never and likely will never be a place for Golds. Lacking name recognition, except the negative "Gym". Mostly lacking any reason to go there as either a buyer or a seller.
eBay must, repeat, must, traverse into high volume same-item sales if they are to succeed in the eyes of their stockholders. There simply isn't the volume to be done using the auction model. Buy it now is a step in that direction which doesn't seem to be hurting anyone. The money in retailing involves wholesale purchases in the $millions, and sales count in thousands per day of the same item. Just ain't gonna happen with people bidding on one every 6 seconds.
Yes, this will cut out the little guys buying from distributors and listing on eBay.
No, it won't cut out the little guys selling unique items. And it will help the distressed inventory people, many of whom are small time and geographically stationary.
eBay is vulnerable to competition. They are creating niches, particularly with their rules against a growing list of legal but unpopular items. Unfortunately for those looking for competition, none of those guys seem visionary enough to try for a broader base. I don't buy guns, so I don't go to the site which lists guns, but if that site listed "anything legal", I'd go there, and a lot of other people would too, because it would be fun.
posted on December 2, 2000 10:02:26 AM
sg52, I'll be spending the weekend with my kids. I can't give your post the attention it deserves, but I value your comments. I'm chasing after two four-year olds right now and one just stepped on my foot wearing Mommy's high heels. Ouch! For me, the face of eBay has changed. And I think there were fundamental policy changes around the IPO and hiring of the "new guard." I hope to drop in later today. Have a nice weekend!
posted on December 2, 2000 10:16:28 AM
Trying to get back on track.... My point is that "outsiders" don't understand why eBay works. It's the small-time sellers that made eBay hugely successful, the so-called junk dealers. The investors, programmers, pros and MBAs that came later don't have a clue. The fun atmosphere that made eBay doesn't show up on the accounting books. That's what I'm talking about.
posted on December 2, 2000 12:05:44 PM
I think most Ebay sellers see what is going on. Ebay is arrogant and in the end that will be their downfall. Lousy customer support, not listening to their users and then selling out to corporations. They are allowed to do this because of their arrogance. Amazon,yahoo, microsoft did not make a dent because in the end they just copied Ebay. Competition will come from an upstart. But someone who has truly listened to the problems and will continue to. Ebay has forgotten what got them there. They can only get the corporations to pay the big dollars because of all of their users. But if they continue to ignore them, they will leave and so will the corporations. Ebay will never be chipped away at. You have to create a whole new market that is better, more fun and truly user friendly and caring. Ebay's biggest threat is itself by acting the way they do.
posted on December 2, 2000 07:44:54 PM
Count me in on the eBay was fun side. It WAS fun. It was fun to find an item you'd been longing for but had been unable to find locally. To contact the seller and wait in anxious anticipation for it to arrive, and when it did, it was as described. It was fun to sell. It was fun to buy something at a yard sale for a quarter and sell it on eBay for hundreds of dollars. It was fun to help out on the Q & A. I know a number of folks who moved from mainstream jobs to depending upon eBay for their sole income. Why not do something you both enjoyed and was profitable? Who could ask for more?
As time has gone by the fun factor has been factored to death until what remains is only a glimmer of what it once was. More rules, more heavy handed policies, more fees. I'll admit many of the policies have been a result of abuse of the system (the masses always seem to pay the price for the sins of the few). Other changes have been due to eBay's new management feeling pressured to perform for their stockholders. To be the one dot com that remained profitable, perhaps at the expense of the very people who made them what they were. Whatever the reasons, the fun isn't there like it used to be. The profit isn't there like it used to be. The categories are too large to be browsed. Buyers snipe more than they proxy, and subsequently the frequent eBay downtimes can be the death knell for a seller's auctions who end during the downtime. VERO looms large, deadbeat bidders, shilling and shield bidding. Repros, knock-offs, fakes and bottom feeders. I could go on and on.
I don't know that we will ever resuscitate the spirit of what eBay once was, but not for a moment do I believe that the spirit of the people who made eBay what it was has been is ground into nothingness. I read the threads here on AW about the orphanage that needs clothes for children, about the folks that ask others to pray for their auctions, and about folks who are having to move back into a mainstream job. I am reminded that what it's REALLY all about still lives and breathes on.
It's about us.
I believe that what we as sellers need to do to survive in the uncertain times we find ourselves in, is to arm ourselves with knowledge to prepare ourselves for whatever may be ahead of us. We need to decide if we are hobbyists or professionals. If we aspire to be professionals then we need to act like ones. We need to educate ourselves and learn to develop sound business practices. We need to search for resources. If the resources don't exist then we need to unite and help to create them. Things like auction user's credit unions, health care groups and sources for disability insurance. We need to learn to diversify to develop a strong business foundation. We need to unite and share resources so we all can become stronger and able to weather the storms that may lie ahead. If we can learn to adapt and evolve, and then capitalize on what we've learned, I believe we can still remain successful in the bigger picture of the evolution of the online auction industry.
I'm all for learning to evolve into a solid rock as opposed to a feather at the mercy of eBay's random winds of whim.
As a seller I'm not happy with ebay at all, but every time an auction site goes out of business, I FEEL SO SO SO HAPPY!!! Why? Because they are just cheap copycats with a lot of money to spent. BUT they do not have new ideas, they have no clue about what auctions is all about, they just are here to clone ebay and expect to succeed, frankly I think those people watch too much TV, they have heard that young people are being so successful on the Internet, that they ask their daddy or mommy to borrow a few millions to open their auction site. They think that the only requirement to succeed on the Internet is to have from 24 to 28 years, they think will automatically succeed. Every single auction site that opens try to imitate eBay, and expect to compete with ebay, PLEASE GIVE ME A BREAK, they have really no idea about the Internet and what buyers and sellers want. I have tons of ideas that can easily shake ebay, but sadly I don't have those million$ to invest, I'm not saying that I could bring down eBay, that's not my intention, I really respect very much eBay and for what they do to be the number one, and I always think I will respect them. But there are tons of new things they can do to open new markets EASILY, I'm not talking about features and how ebay can run better, I'm talking about new markets.
I'm the direct responsible for at least 2 features now well used on eBay, but I have tons more about the entire industry of the auction business, but I will keep it for myself, at least for now. That's why I really feel happy, glad for those auctions sites that are closing their doors, I think those people are in the wrong business, BY CLONING YOU GUYS WILL NOT SUCCEED, there are hundreds of techniques how you can easily succeed, stop cloning eBay or PayPal, those business are genuines and uniques and people will stick with them NOT WITH THE CHEAP MIMICS!!!
posted on December 3, 2000 10:31:58 AM
Already fiqured that out. Way ahead of you. Having great success.As I have believed all along. Copying Ebay will get you nowhere. Which is why we didn't
I was trying to ignore it, but you are all over this site talking about how new and innovative your site is.
I checked, and quite frankly, it sucks.
First off, LOWESTbid?, shouldn't it be HIGHESTbid?
You make people download some big file, and install it on their computer before they can use your site, which by the way has some bugs, and then, you place splash and paste some humungous dashboard bar across the top of the pages, THEN your pages refresh automatically every few seconds, not even giving the person a chance to read the descriptions.
What's up with that?
AND, after all this, you have less items on your site, then I list on ebay...LOL
Sorry, but your self promotion brought this on yourself.
posted on December 3, 2000 11:10:46 AM
Pocono
I quess they can't help it if their site is too advanced for some people. It goes to show you that ebay has done a great job of programming people to accept less. Oh by the way dozens of power sellers use the site. I quess you should stay where you are. Sorry if this sound personal but if you took the time to look at the site you would see it is definetly not an ebay imposter. Changing bad habits takes time, but the rewards will be worth it.
[ edited by liveauctionguy on Dec 3, 2000 11:14 AM ]
posted on December 3, 2000 11:16:50 AM
pocono, no I am not but you better get used to hundreds of new loyal L.B users coming to these chat rooms to spread the word. You can not stop the inevitable.
posted on December 3, 2000 11:24:39 AM
liveauctionguy: Here is your original, unedited post...
*****liveauctionguy
posted on December 3, 2000 11:10:46 AM new
I quess they can't help it if their site is too advanced for some people. It goes to show you that ebay has done a great job of programming people to accept less. Oh by the way dozens of power sellers use the site. I quess you should stay where you are.*****
I doubt any seller worth anything would be bothered using a site destined for the dumper.
Yes, I checked your posts under both names, lbceo AND liveauctionguy have incredibly adapted the same mannurisms and speech patterns
posted on December 3, 2000 11:25:42 AM
liveauctionguy, that's fine, but this is the eBay forum and not the self promotion forum for any fly by night site that comes along.
posted on December 3, 2000 11:29:44 AM
Any business which finds it effective to post promotionally on a forum like AW rather than to buy an ad on AW is way small time, and publicly lacking strong ethics.
Like those telephone pole ads.
Real, ethical business goes like this:
-buy advertising to stir up interest
-be around to discuss issues and problems to generate confidence
posted on December 3, 2000 11:52:19 AM
I have to (respectfully) disagree with Jake about ebay being an auction and not a retail store and all sales being final. It is neither an auction nor a retail store - it is a venue for users to auction their wares. It is also an ONLINE venue and as such, a buyer has to trust the seller that his/her description is accurate and that they will get the item they pay for. They can not touch the item or see it except for a picture and in my field (antiques and collectibles) we all know how deceptive a picture can be. I think it only fair to stand behind what you auction and guarantee that the item is as respresented and also to give a GOOD description with CLEAR, untouched pictures and a complete condition report and all terms including shipping charges. The short sentence of description and ALL SALES FINAL just doesn't cut it in my area of selling. BTW .. I am a seller.
I also agree with Pocono in what he has said. What used to be fun is not as much fun anymore, but it is still I business I enjoy and I am thankful that ebay exists with all of it's flaws.
posted on December 3, 2000 12:16:10 PM
pocono
you have the right to your opinion. We are glad their are ebay users like you because it gives people who truly want a fun, safe and caring auctionsite something to remind them of what the alternative is. I reiterate stay where you are. Have a nice day. Oh check out the ratings next month.
posted on December 3, 2000 12:26:22 PMOh one more thing. We are advertising heavily right now on A.W.
Very good, lbceo. I see the ad.
So why stoop to crude self-promotional postings?
Do suggestions:
-compare yourself factually to eBay when appropriate
-answer any question regarding how your service works
-be very quick to address any customer service issue which arises
-get rid of those shill accounts. Now.
Do NOT:
-post sleazy sounding trashings of eBay. It makes you look like a child.
-jump into any discussion where some poster has a beef about eBay with some self aggrandizing post.
