posted on December 3, 2000 04:36:43 AM new
cheeses: in the brick and mortar world, a chargeback, ideally, should be used for a last resort. Well "ideally" the customer is satisfied of course! But this is the real world and stuff happens, so.....The customer is expected though not always required to try to work out a refund or exchange first with the seller. In my opinion it is ALWAYS better if a dissatisfied customer brings a problem to a seller who then hopefully is able to resolve it without going to an official chargeback. (for instance, you bring your widget back to walmart and they give you your money back, or exchange the item). In terms of the ideal chain of events,a chargeback happens when this attempt is made but no satisfaction occurs on the part of the buyer. So then the buyer attempts to solve the situation by bringing it to the attention of the credit-card company who (again, *ideally*) will investigate to see if your claim is legitimate. If it finds your claim to be legitimate it will return your money and debit the card-accepting merchant.
Speaking as a former real-world seller, in my experience this system is rife with potential problems for the seller, no doubt about it... because the buyer has the balance of power, they can (if they so choose and if they are persistent) do an end run around the store or merchant's return policies. Frivolous claims are very, very common. Some get weeded out by the credit card companies. A lot don't. So in the brick and mortar world the fact of life is that if you accept credit cards, then at some point you will be the recipient of chargebacks, period. A clear return policy will help you but it won't prevent chargebacks in all cases, and in a lot of situations you will not be in control of how the outcome is decided. It can be extremely frustrating. And some types of sales are more likely to incur chargebacks than others. That said, I always found that the convenience of accepting cards was worth the infrequent occurance of chargebacks in my particular area of business and I still do, but it's a choice each merchant needs to make individually. With the advent of systems like Paypal and others, a lot of people are coming into the ability to take credit cards without fully understanding how doing so removes some of their power of "final say" in terms of refunds and customer capriciousness. In my personal opinion, each merchant needs to think carefully about the possibility of chargebacks before taking *any* form of credit card payment----as many are finding out, the third party route a la Paypal doesn't mean anything in terms of protection from chargebacks (at least until some court cases happen). I think one of the reasons it doesn't bother me that much is that I got over my outrage and frustration with them years ago when they first occurred in my business. It never becomes less irritating but it does become a part of business---luckily, for me, a very infrequent part. For others selling items with a high rate of "buyer's remorse", maybe much more frequently---maybe to the point where they don't want to take credit cards at all. In some real-world businesses the rate of return is as high as 1/3 of all items sold. The reason why these stores accept returns is because if they do not, they will get them in the form of chargebacks and customer ill-will. These are unfortunate facts I had to learn when first starting out in business. I would like to find a solution that protected buyers AND sellers better, but just like Macy's, Walmart, and every other company that accepts credit cards, I'm dealing with industry-wide established standards and the 800 pound gorillas of the credit card industry and frankly, I just have other things to do (like sell!) I know Macy's would love to put a stop to all the chargebacks too....but if they can't....I tend to think I just have to deal with it. And since I still take credit cards (via Paypal and Billpoint) I do. I wouldn't take any 3rd party's assurances or TOS seriously on this......like something else I could mention, Chargebacks Happen.
posted on December 3, 2000 06:29:46 AM new
1. Notify the seller you are displeased and see if something can be worked out.
2. If that fails to work, return the product and mail it with a "return receipt" so that you will have evidence the product has been returned - also insure in case of loss or breakage.
3. When you are certain the seller has the product, notify your credit card company and fax them the proof that the item has been returned and ask for a charge back to be issued
********
In the future seriously read all descriptions of items and the sellers feedback before you buy. Also, make sure you aren't the problem.
WHAT ONE SOWS DOES SOONER OR LATER SOME BACK ON THEM.
Case in point, I sold a very expensive pair of European Cut crystal Lusters to a lady. A day or two after she received them she called saying they didn't work. (We knew they worked when we shipped, and the odds on all of the sudden not working were minute).
I talked to her on the phone to tell her how to check the power to the lamps but she said she had already packed them for shipment back to me and refused to even consider checking them out again. She said she just wanted to exchange or have them fixed. I STRONGLY suspected something else.
When the lamps arrived the top of one chimney was broken on the edge in a manor which could only occur if it fell over. There were no broken glass pieces in the box, and because I have seen this type of break before, I knew she had broken the chimney BEFORE she packed it....and her breaking it was the reason she returned them to get another set.
To try to make a long story short, my post office requested a fax copy of her insurance receipt so that they could process the lamp damage - and guess what - she has lost it. Without it my post office won't process the claim, and she is out a considerable amount of money..... Her lying caught up with her!
posted on December 3, 2000 07:35:54 AM new
I am only talking about gross misrepresentation, and for some reason nearly 50% of my purchases lately are not as described.
For example:
- I paid over $600 for a Victorian Bronze figure that turned out to be a cheap brass fake. Seller won't refund.
- I bought a set of "mint" depression glass with fleabites on several pieces. No answer to my e-mails.
- I bought a "pristine" Watt bowl (for top dollar), and it arrived with a chunk missing from the base. Seller says it was broken off in shipping, and won't accept return.
- I bought a "genuine" Roseville vase, and it was a cheap repro. Seller say that since it was marked "Roseville", he did not misrepresent the piece.
posted on December 3, 2000 09:02:29 AM new
All of those things are surely grounds for demanding a return.
Note that there are two kinds of "chargeback".
1. with your credit card company
2. with PayPal
The PayPal kind is not useful to this case. PayPal doesn't care if the seller sent a brick, all they care about is that seller sent a package, and it seems that a package came.
That leaves a credit card chargeback. Credit card chargebacks basically stick PayPal and then PayPal has to go get their money from seller, but there's nothing unfair about that; PayPal agreed to that when they agreed to take credit cards. PayPal will however be very displeased with any buyer who initiates 5 chargebacks, and may well suspend your account. There isn't much else they can do.
Also, your credit card company will be displeased with you. Chargebacks are a lot of work.
As has been pointed out, you must return the stuff. You cannot chargeback while keeping them.
1. Tell seller you're going to return the stuff.
2. Return the stuff with documentation, (but consider what will happen if seller refuses to sign for receipt, you will not have returned it, and you have to return it, not just try to return it)
3. Demand a refund of the charged amount (not of your return shipping).
4. submit the chargeback form to your credit card company.
Proceed slowly showing that you mean business. You really don't want to initiate 5 chargebacks, it's a lot better to get seller to do the right thing by the threat of a chargeback.
posted on December 3, 2000 10:40:48 AM new
Paypal will freeze your account if you try a chargeback with the CC company. Since you did get something from the seller, doesn't matter what, their fraud protection does not apply. I would go for ebay's fraud insurance on the item you paid the most for, then I would proceed with the chargebacks with your cc company. Paypal has to know that people will not stand for being defrauded. You can only file for ebay fraud insurance one time, I think, you will have to check. The good news is that if Ebay finds in your favor that sometimes the seller is naru'd. Heather
[ edited by hcross on Dec 3, 2000 10:41 AM ]
posted on December 3, 2000 11:04:34 AM new
Remember you must sucessfully return The Items to the seller and have proof of The return if you try to charge back on items you keep you will run into big problems.
Dont know if you know of anyone who has been black listed From Doing banking in the USA due to fraud like not makeing good on many bounced checks or bounceing checks continually. many charge backs and complaint about credit card purchases.
I know a few people who have been over my years this is not a nice thing all your bank accounts & saveings are shut down and every bank you aply to for saveings checking even denied to buy CDs and have money market acounts many companys will refuse to set up 104K and IRA retirerment accounts.
These things Do happen and the restriction last from 5 to 10 years and even some banks outside the USA will reject you aplication for checking and saveings.
posted on December 3, 2000 04:27:12 PM new
cheeses -
You haven't stated what the policies were that were stated in each of their auctions, ans there contact notices. I can tell you that the "real life" auction I attend here
every week would probably only offer a refund on one of the cases that you stated.
I mention this because I find it odd that you have had ten recent transactions go sour on you. Perhaps it is only very bad luck, but if you are buying items without considering the sellers terms, you are a big part of the problem.
In my opinion, I'd try to get the first couple of most expensive items dealt with first. It seems likely that each of sellers will file complaints with PayPal, or whoever
back against you. My guess is, after a few complaints totalling enough money, you're going to get the heave ho, deserved or not.
No company is going to buy "gross misrepresentation" very often, unless there are a number of similiar complaints.
posted on December 3, 2000 04:47:46 PM new
Cheeses after 10 times of receiving merchandise that you don't like I would at this point seriously look at the seller's return polices first before bidding. Only bid on items that have clear pictures, clear pictures are not that hard to do and I have seen a lot of auctions with pictures you can not even see what the item looks like. I personally won't bid on them unless I can copy picture and lighten it with a photo program. Ebay is an Auction and as auctions go....your bid is suppose to be final, however, there is a good % of sellers who operate on Ebay with a no questions asked refund. I even offer their postage back if they are not satisfied. As if they feel the item is misrepresented it is only fair they not be out a dime. On new merchandise in original package with sizes mentioned, when they request a refund because they didn't read the description I then do not refund postage. I would ask the sellers for refund "or" you will be forced to charge back before I actually did this. I bet most will offer a refund with the item returned in the condition it was sold.
posted on December 3, 2000 04:57:02 PM new
You should also be aware that any business that is licensed by their state can report a "chargeback" to the credit bureaus operating in their state. This is especially true if they disputed the return. This could rapidly damage your credit.
You really need to check with a lawyer in your state before trying this.
posted on December 3, 2000 06:22:55 PM new
chesses - Sorry but this sound fishy. Too many problems from the same buyer - don't believe the story myself - OR the buyer isn't reading the descriptions, which is the buyer's responsibility.
posted on December 3, 2000 10:28:33 PM new
justinias:
I'm not familiar with that policy (businesses being able to report settled chargebacks to credit agencies). Do you know of any websites or could you point me to any documentation that could shed some light on that? Anyone else too. The reason I am questioning you is that if a buyer is found to be justified in his chargeback by the credit card agency, I would think he/she would scream bloody murder if his/her credit was damaged or even slightly affected by a later, merchant-originated complaint. And the credit card agencies, who are nowadays very paranoid about their names being associated with fraud in the eyes of the public (their users) would likely be very responsive if large numbers of persons were thus affected.
I can understand that merchants want to discourage chargebacks, but your comment about consulting a lawyer almost sounds like you are trying to scare the originator of the thread. I don't think consulting a lawyer before initiating chargebacks is a typical scenario, although if you have the money, I suppose you could (you could also consult a lawyer before you sign your car insurance policy or a credit-card agreement, but most people don't and manage to escape unscathed). I would say a more practical approach would be to consult the agencies that regulate credit in your state and/or a consumer-help type agency. While they might not be up to speed on Internet affairs, they could certainly give you the rundown on brick-and-mortar type chargebacks. then you could decide based on their information what would be best to do next, whether it's research more, drop the issue, or initiate the chargeback. Information is always a positive thing.
Sorry but this sound fishy. Too many problems from the same buyer - don't believe the story myself - OR the buyer isn't reading the descriptions, which is the buyer's responsibility.
Not necessarily fishy, since it seems to be happening to a lot of buyers. Yes the majority of sellers are great, but with the number of sellers on ebay, that still leaves a lot who aren't.
All of the examples Cheeses cited are things we read about every day on these boards. And some sellers LIE, and how is the buyer supposed to know if others don't leave appropriate feedback.
Makes me sick, cause I saw one newbie buyer recently with a -2. He/she had the courage to leave 2 negs for a highfeedback seller who promptly retaliated. And it was obvious, if you checked it out. Lots of sellers don't and then boldly state they won't sell to anyone with negs, or less than 10, whatever.
Everyone who cares, gets upset with their first neg, I wonder how that newbie buyer felt.....makes me think that maybe I won't feel so totally devestated when the first neg comes my way.
posted on December 4, 2000 10:30:26 PM new
brighid
I don't know of any source of info for this sort of thing on the web. If anyone does, I'd be interested too.
I base my comments on my experiences working for for an apartment locating firm a few years ago. Whenever a customer disputed a service charge, and the firm suffered a chargeback, they were able to report it to the credit bureau.
I also think it would be silly to proceed with filing numerous chargebacks - I think the number ten came up somewhere? - without spending the $50 it would cost to consult a lawyer. Where I live, you can even get free legal advice twice a month at the county courthouse from lawyers, and occasionally a judge. At least you would be aware of the possible ramifications before you got into a hassle you might avoid. Just a difference of opinion, I guess.
posted on December 5, 2000 03:31:32 AM new
In all fairness, until recently the vast majority of my sellers were accurate in their descriptions.
I buy on eBay to get a good deal, but I have noticed an alarming number of sellers who don't understand how much a few chips or dents can decrease the value of an item.
Personally, I will probably stop buying on eBay until some sort of "guaranteed return" policy is instituted.
It is way too easy for a seller to unload damaged good with their "no returns" policy and inaccurate descriptions!
posted on December 5, 2000 03:55:17 AM new
Cheeses
The answer is Yes!
Call your credit card company and ask them to describe the exact procedure for instituting a chargeback to your account, and specifically about requriements for returning the merchandise to the seller as well as the number of chargebacks allowed in any one period. Most likely, they will require the details in writing (make sure you send the letter by registered mail to the credit card company). The amount in question is held sort of in limbo until the questionable charge is resolved and you should not incur further finance charges on this particular amount until the matter is resolved.
It isn't true that your credit card company will be unhappy with you, this is part of the service they offer. (Of course, a lot of companies have employees who don't like to work and credit card companies are no different).
Also, check the credit card you used to see whether that company offers a buyer protection plan for merchandise purchased with that card. If you do not have that information, ask the credit card company.
Your bank account won't be closed, your credit rating won't be ruined, etc. You have rights as a consumer. Don't let others intimitade or frighten you into giving up those rights.
posted on December 5, 2000 04:23:11 AM new
Jada: I think you put that well.
justinias: the ability of a business to ruin a customer's credit rating over a legitimate chargeback (notice I said legitimate!) should be fought tooth, nail, and fang. As to your comment about legal advice, my reply to your post advocated it if one could afford it (not everyone has access to cheap/free legal counsel). However, your original post stated that you should get legal counsel first before you proceed with a chargeback. I merely stated that this is *not* the norm for handling a consumer chargeback and that there are other avenues where the consumer could get information. If you want to disagree on *that* then be my guest.
You may not realize this, but the idea of "having to get legal advice" can intimidate many people due to cost/unfamiliarity/fear of the unknown and prevent them from taking action on what are very legitimate complaints. Having worked as a volunteer with consumer advocacy groups and I have seen and heard of people routinely discouraged with those types of comments and I don't cotton to it.
