posted on December 9, 2000 06:34:14 AM new
I received an email yesterday from Billpoint stating that one of my buyers initiated a chargeback. This is for a auction that ended in July! I shipped her item 4 days after the auction ended.
I have tried emailing her but haven't heard anything back yet.
Has anyone had this problem? Isn't there a limit to when someone can file a chargeback? The buyer isn't even registered on eBay anymore!
I'm seriously thinking about dropping Billpoint in the New Year. 80% of my high bidders still send checks & MO's, and most likely the remaining 20% would as well, if that's all I accepted.
For those that really must use their CC, I'll continue to offer BidPay.
posted on December 9, 2000 06:52:06 AM new
Hi Kim --
I've never had a chargeback (knocking profusely on wood).
I would call her. Even if she is NARU with ebay, her phone number would still be listed on the original Billpoint transaction. Maybe she never received her item and is one of those buyers to shoot first and ask questions later.
Either way, I'd be interested to hear how this goes.
posted on December 9, 2000 06:53:41 AM new
Well I think if this is true you can fight this chargeback credit card users Must file there claims with in 60 days this one is well well past that time limit.
Read your own credit card agreement it states clearly you must file these cliams in a set peroid of time in writeing or your out of luck and will be responable to pay the charges and the interest.
Most Mail order companys offer a free 30 day money back garentee and would more then likely dispute any charge back attempt on an purchase past 30days and Win there case since most dont even charge you or your credit card untill this free 30 day period is up.
posted on December 9, 2000 07:20:37 AM newcredit card users Must file there claims with in 60 days
Just curious, where did you come up with the 60 day timeframe? The link I posted above states 120 days? I also wonder if some of the International card holders might be offered a longer period?
Just the thought of a charge back coming back to bite me on my azz 5 months later makes me sick.
posted on December 9, 2000 07:28:15 AM new
I have 3 major credit cards and I looked at the agreement for each regarding billing disputes. All 3 state that in cases of a billing dispute, I need to notify them within 60 days of the date of receiving the statement that contains the disputed charge.
I was always under the imprerssion that you had 60 days to protest or forget it.
posted on December 9, 2000 07:36:40 AM new
I reread the article. Where does he get the 120 days? I believe he is mistaken. You have to go by your card agreement and I've never seen one that gave more than 60 days.
Also, despite his claims that the cards automatically favor the consumer, it actually is difficult to get a chargeback. You need to have evidence that you "in good faith" attempted to resolve the problem and you may need proof that you returned the item.
posted on December 9, 2000 08:04:25 AM newAll 3 state that in cases of a billing dispute, I need to notify them within 60 days of the date of receiving the statement that contains the disputed charge.
But nowhere does it say that they won't waive the 60 day requirement for any reason they might choose.
The bank making that decision is your bank. The loser is the merchant. Guess who they're more likely to care about?
A merchant agreement contains no time limit on when a charge becomes immune to challenge.
posted on December 9, 2000 08:07:09 AM new
The card agreements clearly state you must send the card company a writen notice of your dispute within 60 days not 120 days.
The card company has 30days to recognize your claim.
There are other laws and rules as well card holders are responable for the $50 of any disputed amount.
posted on December 9, 2000 08:21:57 AM new
I agree with sg52 on this one. There are no set rules for a merchant.
Chargebacks used to be like a little secret that hardly anyone knew about. But now with the internet it is widespread knowledge so of course the scammers take full advantage of it.
We are always receiving updates from the banks as they brag about e-commerce but there is no real protection for a merchant. Banks are "just a venue".
I still believe that most people are honest but for every CC transaction there is a risk.
posted on December 9, 2000 08:39:15 AM new
"Clearly state your return policy on your invoice. Buyers will respect your policy if you disclose it up front. In addition, a return policy inspires trust and suggests
professionalism. Most importantly, if a buyer disputes a credit card charge with the credit card issuer, Billpoint can more effectively contest the dispute if you clearly stated your return policy before the purchase."
The above was in an email from Billpoint this morning.
So if you sell an item "as is" and show all defects, etc. and put "no returns" does that inspire trust and suggest professionalism?
Or do people expect to buy an item for less money because of the defects and then want to return it later because it is not perfect, conveniently forgetting that is why they got if for less? And do they conveniently forget that the seller was upfront about the defects?
posted on December 9, 2000 08:46:40 AM new
shaani .... Yes, I also read that spiel from Billpoint this morning & had a chuckle. When I asked them a few months back what the chances were of them winning a dispute on my behalf, I was basically told, good luck sucker!
Dman .... Not sure about all the various CC companies, but some of them are now waiving the $50 "processing" fee on charge backs/fraud.
What I've been doing lately is, if I run into a high bidder who I feel uncomfortable offering Billpoint to, I'm feeding them a line about having Billpoint problems, and sending them a link to BidPay & offering to pay the fee.
I'm not about to let a (0) feedback bidder use Billpoint to pay for a $250-$500 item.
posted on December 9, 2000 08:54:19 AM new
The merchants them selfs Dont need any set limits on charge back in any case.
These laws-rules are set up for the consumer protection of the card user as part of fair credit and lending laws.
The cunsumer has 60 days to file a dispute with there card company the card company has 30 days to recognize your disput and make a decsion on the matter or file for a extention of that time.
But the consumer Must make the claim within 60days of when the charge was made or the wrongfull charge(s) were discovered on there bill.
Been there done that been the holder of over 9 different credit cards through 9 different company and had a few charges show up on cards.
Believe me credit card companys dont just decide easily to forgive or charge back I once was charged on a credit card for $258.00 worth of videos from a company I never heard of.
Sometimes would just toss credit card statements aside run to the bank on that time of the month to make the credit card payment sometime later would open the bill discovered the charge for this called to let the card company know about this charge they asked if I wrote or called when I frist found the charge I said yeah I just dicovered it but it was on a older statment from little over 3 months back the charge was more then half paid and they said sorry there is not much we can do for you at this point.
Gave us a Warning to make sure and check all credit card staments on the day we receive them.
reddeer
yes some companys have waived the frist $50 for me but just the frist time after you start makeing other claims they stop waiveing I learned this to.
Not only that but if you make many claims within 1 -6 months they send you a letter asking you to make no more Charges on the card you priviages have ended please cut the card in half and send it back to them.
Also this get put in your credit report and after this good luck to you getting a low interest credit card company to deal with you in the next 7 to 10 years.
posted on December 9, 2000 10:54:05 AM new
Here is the email that was sent to me yesterday. I have responded to the email. I'll post Billpoint's response when I get it. Still haven't heard from the buyer.
Thanks everyone,
Kim
Dear Kimberly
>
>
> Billpoint Payment Operations has received a chargeback for the transaction
> listed below. A chargeback is a transaction reversal initiated by the
> cardholder with their bank, arising from a customer dispute or processing
> technicality.
>
> Buyer's Name: ***********
> Buyer's Email Address: **********
> Buyer's Phone Number: ********
> Transaction Amount: 21.80
> Transaction Date: 072300
> Item Description: Beautiful Porcelain Doll
> Order Number: ********
> Processor Seq: ***********
> Billpoint Comments: *****
>
>
> To resolve this issue, we recommend you do one of the following:
>
> * If you have proof of delivery, please fax us a copy along with a
> print-out of this email to the fax number listed below.
>
> * If you have already issued a refund to this customer, please email
> us back with that information. If you have a cancelled check, fax it to the
> number listed below.
>
> * If the dispute is related to your return policy, please respond to
> this email with any information you may have related to the dispute and a
> copy of your business return/cancellation policy.
>
> We need your response within 5 days of this email to be able to attempt
> representment of your transaction. As noted in section 4.0 of the Billpoint
> User Agreement, as a seller you have agreed to accept the final chargeback
> decision of the buyer's issuing bank. If no response is received to this
> email, including one of the above mentioned items, we will debit your
> Billpoint account in the amount listed above plus a $10 processing fee.
>
>
> Sincerely
>
> The Billpoint Chargeback Team
>
> 415 947 8903 FAX
>
>
>
posted on December 9, 2000 11:14:48 AM new
I see two problems with this according to califorina laws on this and most other states frist is this transaction is under the $50 limit to allow for the defence claim that can be made up to a year after purchase even if the charge was already paid.
second the date of this transaction july 7th at the most the 60 day dead line was up september 7th even if there bank wanted to allow it to extend it the 90 days the limit was up october 7th this is decmember 9th.
your transaction is two months over the laws limits.
I would stilldeffinately send an Email off to billpoint stateing these facts and the fact that in the last 5 months you have received no notices from this buyer of any problems with the transaction.
If you could get them proof of the fact the Item was shipped to them delivery comfirmation would be great on this as I have seen others post here amazed that after 6 months they can still find tracking info on items that were delivered.
It couldnt hurt as well if somewhere like your auction listing or aboutme page if there is a 30 days money back garentee this might stop the chargeback on its own if the buyer has never contacted you about problems.
there bottom line says they are representing you all they are asking for is something from you is something to base there representions on.
posted on December 9, 2000 11:25:41 AM new
Dman ...... I asked a Billpoint rep a few months back that if I clearly stated:
*ALL SALES FINAL - NO REFUNDS*
on my Billpoint statement to the buyer,
would Billpoint would be able to keep me from facing a charge back? Their answer, NO.
It would help them, but would in no way guarantee that the charge back would not go through. It's up to the buyers bank to make the final call.
As far as the seller stating they never received a complaint from the buyer via email, that's pretty easy to get around.
Email systems are well known for being screwed up, and are not 100% fool proof.
All the buyer would have to tell their bank is that they tried contacting the seller & that the seller failed to respond. I doubt they would ask the buyer for copies of the email they sent, and even if they did, they could be easily forged to appear they were sent several months back.
posted on December 9, 2000 11:27:53 AM new
According to my processor and Visa international you have 120 days for Mailorder, Phone order or intenet orders to dispute a claim. They will even give you 180 days for international transactions.
If you initiate many chargebacks your card will not be taken and it does not go on your credit report. The only thing that can go on your credit report is the fact that you no longer have the card. Even if the company takes it away and you always paid your bill they can put nothing negative on your credit report.
I called visa international once and asked if cardholders are punished in any way for constantly initiating chargebacks. The answer was an emphatic NO! The rep said that if they find out the cardholder is commiting fraud then yes the issuing bank can revoke the card. However if all of the cardholders chargebacks are "proven to be valid" there is no problem. The card companies standards for "valid" are pretty easy.
I called because, another ebayer warned me about a buyer that had initiated chargebacks against over 30 ebay sellers. Mainly for items between $100 and $500. I was lucky she didn't initiate a chargeback against me.
I ordered a $1200 pair of boots. I got the boots and they had been worn and the leather was stretched. I immediately contacted the merchant and told her the problem. She claimed that the boots must have been damaged by the post office. I told her that the box was unopened and wrapped securely. All I wanted was an exchange for an unworn, unstretched pair. She refused. I called my card company and they told me that they were crediting my account immediately. They told me to send the boots back registered mail and send them a copy of the registered mail receipt. The credit for the boots showed up the next day.
I had an ex employee that initiated chargebacks over nothing. Once she initiated a chargeback, because there was a hanging thread on the dress she ordered. She bragged about all of the free stuff she got that way. I asked her how many chargebacks had she initiated with her company. She said "at least 75". I was floored. I explained to her that what she was doing was fraud and that she was causing problems for honest merchants. She justified it by saying she only did it to the "big companies". Her favorite scam was to claim non-receipt of merchandise. She did it to one major mail order lingerie company so many times they refused to accept orders from anyone at her billing address, including orders from her roomates, who were not scammers. I fired her about a year ago because she didn't get along with the other employees. She still comes into my store to say hello and she is still initiating chargebacks. I hope everyday to see that she has been arrested on fraud charges.
Sorry for the long post. Unjustified chargebacks burn me up.
edited to add:
According to my processor there is no law governing the maximum amout of time a cardholder has to intiate a chargeback that is decided by the card companies. There is a minimum amount that they must be allowed and that is 60 days.
[ edited by grumpyebayer on Dec 9, 2000 11:40 AM ]
posted on December 9, 2000 11:48:51 AM new
A couple of days ago, I received an email from Billpoint very similar to this. It was for a transaction that was over 2 months ago.
On my email, in addition to the fax number, there was a phone number to call ((415) 396 4301)
I called, and it turns out that this was actually a case of credit card fraud.
What really gets me is that Billpoint provides themselves an incentive to be the victims of fraud. If you receive a fraudulent payment, Billpoint charges you a $10 "investigation fee." So not only do you lose the item and the money, you also have to pay Billpoint $10, and they automatically deduct it all from your checking account.
So why would Billpoint even bother to try to stop fraud. They make more money on fraudulent transaction.
posted on December 9, 2000 02:57:52 PM new
As a merchant you will have certain rights that may become diluted when you use a third party payment service.
Everyone pays a chargeback fee, whether you have Billpoint or your own merchant account.
We use Billpoint, PayPal and have our own merchant account. It is part of the risk you take since there are no risk-free methods of accepting credit card payments.
I have here a "Chargeback Management Guide for Visa Merchants." They are free from Visa but you must have a valid merchant account to register at their site to order them. If you would like a copy, email me at [email protected] and I will gladly send you one.
It has different ways of dealing with different disputes. Since you did not say specifically what the buyer disputed (merchandise not as described or non receipt of merchandise, defective merchandise or whatever), I cannot tell you what the guide says about it.
But I can tell you this. If a customer says that merchandise was not as described, they have to make a valid attempt to return the merchandise to you. Big companies may lose these chargebacks, because fighting is not worth the hassle.
I do feel that when you use a third party payment service, you do give up a certain amount of control when these problems arise.
But heck, at least they emailed you before debiting your account. With a regular merchant account, they take the money first and ask questions later.
BTW, even though most cards will tel you that you have 60 or 120 days to dispute a transaction, in reality you can have up to a year and in some cases, even longer.
posted on December 9, 2000 03:51:18 PM newEveryone pays a chargeback fee, whether you have Billpoint or your own merchant account.
Not true. My internet processor does not charge anything for the first five chargebacks per month. After that it is $5.00 only if the chargeback is sucessful. Luckily I have never gotten 5 chargebacks in a month.
The store next to my retail store pays nothing for chargebacks ever. Their processor only takes the amount of the dispute out of his account.
Chargeback fees are set by the processor. some charge nothing others charge as much as $35 for each one. Yet another reason to shop around when looking for a merchant account.
posted on December 9, 2000 07:39:15 PM new
You might also check another variable in the credit card chargeback transaction.
A Card Not Present transaction is extremely risky for the seller. All bets are off as far as regulations concerning chargebacks when the buyer and the card are not present- there is no signature, no positive identification [ as if brick and motar's ever check ID's anyway].
We are all at the mercy of credit card companies and buyer when we accept credit card payments over the Net.
posted on December 9, 2000 09:33:01 PM newbennybbb keep in mind that all such laws governing credit cards are consumer protection laws. There are no merchant protection laws, and the laws cited are not useful for claiming any such protection. The buyer's bank can and routinely does waive both the $50 minimum and the time limits. They're liberal about that, because they don't lose, the merchant loses, and the merchant has no legal recourse.
posted on December 9, 2000 09:49:21 PM new
I have a question concerning these chargebacks.....is this done ONLY if its a credit card....?? I sell on ebay and I have a banking account dedicated strictly to this. It has a debit card with it that I use for buying etc. The debit card is also on file with billpoint/paypal etc. Can they still chargeback to my debit/bank account or is it just if you use a credit card. And if they can....does anyone know if there is some kind of seller protection for this?? Thanks, Pam
posted on December 9, 2000 10:19:17 PM newCan they still chargeback to my debit/bank account
Chargebacks are against the credit card merchant account holder (e.g. PayPal). Such account holders might establish all manner of contracts with sellers, none of which are governed by credit card federal law. So you'd have to ask your payment service about what they might do (if you believe them).
As to the question regarding whether debit cards offer the same buyer protections as credit cards: most banks say YES. Again, the bank isn't the loser in most chargebacks, a merchant is. Federal law has very little to say regarding debit cards, however.
Lastly, the twisted story: if you as a seller have a buyer initiated chargeback passed through your payment service and charged to your debit card, you probably can charge that charge back as unauthorized.
posted on December 10, 2000 03:40:19 AM new
Reamond:
A brick and mortar merchant CAN NOT ask for additional id. There a a few exceptions to this. The main ones are:
1) Home delivery is requested
2) The card is not signed. The merchant must ask the cardholder to sign in their presence. Then they must check the signature on the id to the one on the card to see if they match. If the cardholder refuses to sign the card the merchant is under no circumstances to accept it. That includes cards that say "see id" on the back, but have no signature.
From the Mastercard website:
"The merchant cannot require additional identification as a standard business practice when you use MasterCard for payment. There are a few exceptions, such as when additional information is required to complete the transaction. For example, a merchant will need your address if
goods are to be delivered to your home."
Mastercard even has a form on their site to report merchants that ask for additional id.
I would like to mention that according to my processor unsigned cards are a huge scam for B&M merchants. Some people never sign thier cards and initiate chargebacks based on this. My processor says there is no defense whatsoever for accepting an unsigned card.
A friend of mine works at a large jewelry chain. She is the head of the diamond department for one of their busiest locations. Her store got a chargeback for a $7,000 diamond solitaire. The customer claimed that she was never there and had not purchased the diamond. The store's response was they had her signature. The customer claimed that she hadn't signed her card, so how would they know it was her signature. The card company got proof (I wonder how they prove that) from the cardholder that the card hadn't been signed. My friend's store said that they knew it was her because they asked for id. To add insult to injury the store got a nasty letter from Visa telling them they were not allowed to ask for identification. My friend said that she found out later that this lady had done this at several more of their branches. She nailed the chain for about $50,000. My friend was livid, because she had warned the employees in her department not to accept unsigned cards under any circumstances.
[ edited by grumpyebayer on Dec 10, 2000 03:44 AM ]
posted on December 10, 2000 04:16:29 AM new
*ALL SALES FINAL - NO REFUNDS* ( not any more )
Once you accept a credit card for payment, either directly with your own merchant account or through a payment service such as paypal or billpoint, your TOS becomes that of the credit card company.
This means that you guarantee that:
The item will reach the customer intact and in perfect condition or you will refund their money including any charges for shipping. "They didn't want to pay for insurance" does not stand up in a dispute. The seller is responsible for insuring that the item reaches the buyer. Period. Insurance is an option to protect the seller, not the buyer. If the seller chooses not to insure the package against loss or damage, the seller assumes responsibility for the loss on a credit card purchase. Like it or not, this is the way it works.
The item is exactly what the customer expected. It no longer matters if the item matches your written description. It must match the customer's view of what it should be, or they have a right to dispute the charge.
These are points that sellers must consider when opting to accept credit card payments. And yes, Mastercard's buyer/fraud protection applies to Debit Cards with the Mastercard logo. (I would assume Visa does also)
