posted on December 16, 2000 11:34:26 AM
From the eBay Announcement Board:
QUOTE
***Shill Bidding Prevention on eBay***
This is an update on eBay’s Shill Bidding Prevention efforts.
Shill bidding is the deliberate placing of bids to artificially raise the price of an item. This is a violation of the eBay User Agreement, and could potentially be prosecuted as a criminal act. Shill bidding is wrong because it artificially raises the price of an item and encourages buyers to pay more than the true market price for the item. Since shill bidding involves using a separate User ID, a false impression that another bidder is interested in the item and willing to pay more for it is created. This is unfair and could even be illegal.
We do not tolerate shill bidding and we enforce this policy stringently. In most cases, a member who is confirmed to have shill bid will be suspended for 30 days on the first offense. Subsequent violations will result in an indefinite suspension. We also cooperate fully with any law enforcement inquiry into shill bidding on eBay.
eBay developed the industry's first shill bidding detection tool in early 1999 as a way to analyze bidding patterns over multiple listings. Since then we have also implemented other sophisticated mechanisms. These tools analyze listings and registration data for patterns indicative of shill bidding and allow our Safe Harbor group to detect and act on violations. It is also used in the investigation of reports that are sent to the Safe Harbor by members.
We have also revised Bid History and Bidder Search to allow members to understand bidding patterns more efficiently. This was accomplished by displaying and providing the ability to sort Bidder Search by the seller ID. We believe that this will help in the detection of questionable patterns.
Changes under consideration include enhanced member verification and limits to the number of accounts per member. These will help to reduce anonymity on the site and related concerns like shill bidding. These significant, more impactful changes are carefully being planned to ensure maximum effectiveness with minimal community disruption.
Finally, we will shortly begin randomly auditing member account activity and act on detected violations.
Although shill bidding on eBay occurs in only a small fraction of listings, it is a very important issue as it creates barriers to success for members and eBay. We will continue to invest in systems and resources to address shill bidding and other issues that undermine trust and safety.
It looks like eBay is finally getting the message and taking it seriously. Maybe this will help to squash the amateur detective activities. What to you think?
posted on December 16, 2000 02:13:41 PM
Hi Blanche ..... I saw the post on the AB earlier. Let's hope they are indeed serious, although I doubt it will stop the private dicks from snooping around. The random checks might make some of the shillers think twice, let's hope so!
posted on December 16, 2000 04:38:19 PM
Hi reddeer. You know, I can always count on you to respond to an important topic. (at least I think it's important)
I'm not sure what the full impact of this policy will be but I'm glad to see that eBay is at least addressing the issue of shilling and it's consequences. It sure beats the Bidder Pre-Approval nonsense.
posted on December 16, 2000 09:44:29 PM
Hi Glenda. I know I'm going to get slammed for saying this but I think eBay should only allow each user to have 2 accounts - one for buying and one for selling or whatever. I've heard others argue for as many as 5 different accounts but I don't really see the need for a user to have this many and I think the positive effect of reducing shilling and fraud by limiting the accounts to only 2 outweighs the convenience of having more.
I only have one which I use for both buying and selling but I can see the benefit to having a separate account just for the buying function. I'd love to hear other eBay user's ideas concerning the number of accounts to be allowed and their reasons for having them.
posted on December 16, 2000 10:22:21 PM
Hi Blanche,
I pretty much agree with you about just two accounts. I only have one - so does my husband - and it's worked fine for us (been on eBay since December 1997).
I remember my jaw almost hit the keyboard when I read a message from a newbie on the Q&A once who said - apparently in all seriousness - "Well, isn't the reason that you can have more than one account so you can bid on your own auctions to make sure you get a good price?"
posted on December 16, 2000 11:13:20 PM
Two might not be enough.
I have two selling accounts...one for my books and one for china and collectibles. I could see that if I wanted to sell CDs, videos etc I might want a third.
I've often thought ebay should find a way to connect all the accounts a user has so if i searched for seller xxz I would see all the other ids they used too.
Would limiting the number of accounts someone had really cut down on shilling? It seems to me the dishonest would find an easy work around to that obstacle.
posted on December 17, 2000 06:15:25 AM
I don't know... I'm kind of convinced ebay doesn't really care about shillers. There's a ring in my town, they have like ten different names and shill like crazy. Everybody who knows them knows they shill. It's really pretty obvious. They have been reported a few times that I know about, and each time ebay says there isn't enough evidence. I'm convinced they're looking for signed confessions before they do anything.
posted on December 17, 2000 11:09:26 AM
Hello amy. Why does one need a different user ID for each category that they sell? Wouldn't it be advantageous for the buyer to be able to see ALL of a seller's transactions under one userid?
Limiting the number of ID's may not stop the shilling pros but it would definitely make it easier to detect them. Also, I believe some newbies (and some not so new) don't realize that bidding on your own auction to raise the price is against eBay's rules. Glenda mentioned this in her earlier post and I've also observed this first hand. I think by limiting the number of ID's these folks will finally get the idea that bidding on your auction is not allowed and can actually cause suspension.
posted on December 17, 2000 12:18:02 PMWhy does one need a different user ID for each category that they sell?
Here's a very basic example. A person sells high end electronic equipment, primarily.
But he also has junk around the house that he wants to get rid of, odd buys he occasionally comes across, etc.
Isn't it reasonable that he would want his electronics buyers to be able to browse through his electronics without having to also wade through listings for odd china pieces, or whatever?
And what if that person also sells low end electronic gear that he doesn't necessarily want associated with his high end gear. Not that there's anything wrong with it -- it's just branding.
Another example -- lets say you have a niche business called "One Cent Books" (sorry, Marie.) You sell used books, all with a starting price of one cent. But occasionally, you come across rare collectible books that you would like to sell. But you are afraid you might alienate some of your customers if they start looking through your auctions and many of them don't actually start at one cent.
I could go on and on and on.
And do you really think shillers list all of their accounts under their own name??? Of course not.
So limiting the number of accounts per user does nothing to stop shillers, but it does hurt legitimate, innovative business people.
That said, I expect Ebay to implement the limit any day now.
posted on December 17, 2000 12:35:55 PMThat said, I expect Ebay to implement the limit any day now.
LOL, sad but probably true.
Here's another example Blanche.
What if you mainly selly antiques & collectibles, but suddenly find yourself with a couple thousand comic books to unload?
That seems to be a category where deadbeats & kids seem to cause problems, so either you use an ID where you don't care if you get hit with retaliatory negs, or you risk ruining a pristine feedback file.
It's for that very reason that I often don't bother picking up certain items I know I could flip a $ or two on. Certain categories on eBay have been rather "risk free" for me, others, unless I was using a secondary ID, I wouldn't risk the problems they bring with them.
posted on December 17, 2000 12:48:10 PMamalgamated2000 and reddeer, I see your point and it's something I never really thought about before. I do have a lot of things that don't fit into the antique/vintage category and I was just planning on listing those items in a separate batch but still using my only eBay ID. I see now where the possibility of retaliatory feedback could be a concern since I don't YET have any negs.
Do you see ANY advantage to placing a limit on the amount of ID's one can have? Also, do you have any ideas concerning ways to lower the amount of shill bidding or is that an impossible task?
posted on December 17, 2000 01:03:05 PMDo you see ANY advantage to placing a limit on the amount of ID's one can have? Also, do you have any ideas concerning ways to lower the amount of shill bidding or is that an impossible task?
I think that requiring buyers to register with a credit card, as they do for sellers now, would be a big, big help.
This would virtually eliminate the "casual shillers", which is about 90% in my estimation. The other 10% are just crooks, and they will figure out ways around just about any safeguard.
Unfortunately, credit card verification will also make some bidders mad, confuse others, and cause general chaos. Actually, they did this on Yahoo recently, and it didn't cause nearly as many problems as I expected. But it would still be a mess.
posted on December 17, 2000 01:20:32 PM
I agree that some form of buyer verification is necessary to limit shill bidding and fraud. But there needs to be another option to using a credit card since some folks don't have one and there are many people who won't give out that info to ANYONE on the internet. Forget about using an SSN because I wouldn't dream of giving that info to eBay or anyone else who didn't legally require it and those that don't live in the US don't have a SSN anyway.
Maybe the option of using a CC or a drivers license would work but what other forms of verification can be used? Whatever method is used needs to be a fairly simple process so as not to turn off a valid bidder. I know eBay has a plan regarding verification because "Changes under consideration include enhanced member verification" is mentioned in their announcement. I wonder what they have in mind for us and if they're going to get it right?
Blanche
[ edited by bhearsch on Dec 17, 2000 01:22 PM ]
posted on December 17, 2000 01:53:21 PMI think that requiring buyers to register with a credit card, as they do for sellers now, would be a big, big help.
i don't see how this would help. It's not the buyers who are shilling, its sellers. And I don't think the big problem is sellers using a second id, they are outed pretty quickly by their own stupidity.......the BIG problem are the shill rings. I know 4 sellers very well, I know they are best friends, I know their business dealings, what they buy, etc. they frequently bid on each others items, rarely win.....but it sure as hell beats all the problems of putting a reserve on your item. And this is the type of shilling that will continue.
posted on December 17, 2000 02:00:36 PMthey frequently bid on each others items, rarely win.....but it sure as hell beats all the problems of putting a reserve on your item. And this is the type of shilling that will continue.
As long as they actually buy the item if and when they do win, this is NOT shilling.
If you believe that it is, what is your definition of shilling? People bidding on auctions by their friends? Then I'm guilty of that. I check my friends' auctions once in a while, mostly out of curiosity. If they happen to have something I want, I bid. I bid because I want to buy the item and I would much rather buy it from a friend than from a stranger. What's wrong with that?
posted on December 17, 2000 02:05:01 PM
I agree that there should be some way to do verification rather than through credit cards. There are PLENTY of reasons not to own those evil little pieces of plastic, believe me.
And I also understand reddeer's stance. In fact, I totally agree. Personally, it would probably hurt my business fairly substantially.
But that's a seller's point of view. Ebay is contemplating all of this from a bidder's point of view. People are shying away from Ebay because of all the stories they hear about shilling. That hurts your business, too.
posted on December 17, 2000 02:06:10 PM
In any case there is absolutly no way to enforce this. Just as now you can be NARU one name and have 50 other accounts. Its all a joke.
With credit card verification it might be just a bit harder but not much. With PayPal and xcom, yes now gone but the card still works for EBay--- and online banks debit/credit cards are a mouseclick away.
posted on December 17, 2000 02:44:43 PMIf you believe that it is, what is your definition of shilling? People bidding on auctions by their friends? Then I'm guilty of that. I check my friends' auctions once in a while, mostly out of curiosity. If they happen to have something I want, I bid. I bid because I want to buy the item and I would much rather buy it from a friend than from a stranger. What's wrong with that?
If you are bidding on something you like and want for your own personal use, there is, in reality, nothing wrong with it. However, there can be an "appearance" of questionable business dealings. If you are buying it for resale, it can still be nothing wrong, just recognizing that "hey, that's a steal, I can make money on that!", but the "appearance" factor has just increased. If I were contemplating bidding on something and I found out that you, or any other bidder were friends with the seller--I'm outta there and I would put that seller on my do not buy from list.
In the example I mentioned, notice that I said RARELY win, because they are usually the second high bidder; whadda coincidence But, as I said, I know these people very well, they are business partners, they buy together, do shows together, etc. They don't bid on each others things that are in their areas of collecting interest (it would never get to auction) , or even things they usually buy....although they often buy out estates together. All they do when they "win" is put it back in the shop, or take it to a show, or send it to auction. See, I know this because I know them.........you and the other bidders they have taken to artificially high prices don't.
That's why I don't think friends should buy from friends online. It creates, at the least, a suspicion of questionable practices. I don't do it and I prefer not to buy from those who do.
cariad
posted on December 17, 2000 02:50:19 PM
Cariad ...... I disagree. I have numerous online friends, some of them AW users as well as eBay users, and they all collect something.
They know when they buy from me, the item will be exactly as it's described, the packing will be outstanding, and that I'll ship the item before the funds are even in the mail.
I think that's a far cry from what you're describing.
I'm not sure how we are disagreeing. I am not talking about the same situation you are. I am talking about close friends, who are in business together, have financial partnerships of some sort. I'm not talking about online friends or dealers or collectors, you have sold to who have become good customers. If you tell me you have been best buddies for years, and usually trade with one another before anyone else sees your merchandise, and they bid on your auctions, NOT IN THE AREAS THEY COLLECT IN or usually buy in; then logic tells me there is a good chance I'm being set up here....please don't take this personally..........it is meant in a general sense. And since I know this does happen, how am I supposed to know when it's okay?
cariad
posted on December 17, 2000 03:41:46 PM
Oh, OK. I guess it was this comment from you that I didn't understand?
"If I were contemplating bidding on
something and I found out that you, or any other bidder were friends with the seller--I'm outta there and I would put that seller on my do not buy from list."
I wouldn't bid on my business partners items either. So yes, we're in total agreement.
posted on December 17, 2000 05:02:22 PM
Thanks for the link reddeer. I did stumble across it some time ago and am now wondering why eBay hasn't yet integrated this software into their system and started using it. Or have they?? I just hope it doesn't require any more invasive tactics for those that are browsing their site. There are already too many mine fields out there with DoubleClick, HitBox and the Java script web bugs in eBay's code as it is. I keep Java turned off - hell, I keep everything turned off - and I use a web filter and host file to avoid all of that crap and can still perform functions and surf on eBay just fine. If the time comes when I'm unable to protect my privacy by using these methods and still function on eBay then I will be gone!!
The "enhanced member verification" that was mentioned in eBay's announcement probably refers to the seller and not the buyer. I remember a survey on the T&S Board some time ago about seller verification and providing an icon for those that decided to be verified but I can't remember exactly what the process involved. I do recall that I was opposed to it because it was another way to alienate the sellers who were concerned about giving any more personal info to eBay AND the implication that our hard earned feedback was insignificant. If verification is going to happen then it should be required by ALL of the sellers and eBay should not charge anyone for this service. Why should we pay for something that makes the site more secure or safe? IMO, this should be a GIVEN.
I'm sure that whatever it is that I can't remember (I guess I really must have disliked it) about that survey is the policy that they're going to implement because I've found that the instigation of a "survey" by eBay about a policy or enhancement on one of their user Boards usually means they've already decided to do it.
BTW, I'm one of those customers that would rather cut off my fingers than type my credit card info for anyone on the internet!! I strongly agree with you about the CC from a buyer's perspective and think it would definitely hurt my business if it was a bidding requirememt.
Blanche
just wanted to add that it wasn't the current verification program that costs $5.00
[ edited by bhearsch on Dec 17, 2000 05:05 PM ]
Here is a quote from the PINK about how this program would work:
QUOTE
"How the program may work: A seller with a feedback of, let us say 50, and is ID Verified will be offered the chance to list the item with increased insurance if they indicate acceptance of credit card payment or escrow and mediation."
END QUOTE
I'm afraid I made a rather scathing remark about this proposal.
posted on December 18, 2000 01:46:57 PM
Blanche ..... Yes, I seem to recall that thread. It doesn't appear eBay got the reaction they were expecting, or did they?
BTW - Classic example of why more than 1 selling ID can sometimes be needed, and why CC verification is not the solution.
I recently wandered out of my antique & collectible safe haven & listed a Mink coat on eBay. High bidder was a (0) feedback user with a hotmail addy. Hotmail addys need to be verified with a CC, and guess what happened?
My $400+ sale went down the tubes today.
My best guess is the high bidder is under 18 yrs of age, as she told me I had to wait until her parents came home so they could decide how they wanted to pay. It was to be a gift for her graduation. The deal was supposed to be finalized last week, and today I sold it to the underbidder for $400. Lucky me!
Now, if I was to sell womens clothing on a regular basis, I sure as heck wouldn't want to do it with my main selling ID. Nor does it appear as having a CC on file amounts to much. Had I not had a back up bidder interested in this item, I would have been out $25 in listing fees, and the deadbeat would have 3 more strikes before she's out for good, at least with that email addy.
posted on December 18, 2000 03:59:45 PMNor does it appear as having a CC on file amounts to much.
You seem to be implying that a solution is only a good one if it can completely eliminate the problem. That's not going to happen. But what if it's a solution that can eliminate 50% of the problems -- or 90%? If Ebay could get a lot of good publicity out of it (meaning more bidders for us) then it might be worth it.
posted on December 18, 2000 04:20:58 PM
ebaY should verify all users - seller or buyer in some manner or another. All they need to do is offer a VARIETY of solutions - credit card, equifax verify, OAUA membership etc. There are lots of ways to verify WITHOUT a credit card. This will not solve the problem but would help cut down on the ease of registering shill (and other disruptive and frivolous) buying addys - and yes it is sellers registering these (or recruiting them) but they are registering as BUYERS (no verify required) not sellers (CC or equifax verify required). And yes the true Cons Scammers and Grifters will dance circles around all of these rules. -Rosalinda
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