posted on December 22, 2000 06:16:57 PM new
Well, looks like eBay is test driving some of these new features already.
On the eBay Canada site, when clicking on a sellers user ID, instead of getting their user history & email addy, a link popped up with the following.
.....................................
Use this form to ask a seller a question related to this listing. The recipient will receive an email with your return address.
..........................................
The "ask seller a question" link takes you to the same link/page. It's an online form that you must submit via eBay.
Glenda ...... Good thing we didn't bet, huh?
Go here & check it out for yourself. Looks like all the Candian auctions have this new online "ask seller a question" form feature in place.
posted on December 22, 2000 08:19:38 PM new
If you want to know a seller's email address without using eBay's request form and the seller offers PayPal payments, simply move your mouse over the paypal logo and you will see in the status bar, at the bottom of your browser, the email address as part of the referal link.
Does this mean that eBay will soon forbide these referal logos? Or will it be considered as voluntary shared information by the seller such as any direct mailto link on an auction page?
posted on December 23, 2000 08:14:15 AM new
Well, I've reserved judgement reading all the posts in the other thread, trying to see both points of view. I've made up my mind that I don't like it one bit. I don't WANT my correspondence filtered through ebay. I have a hard time reconciling this with ebay's past stance between buyer and seller are not their concern. This, after I was being "stalked" in email by a deadbeat buyer after I negged him for nonpayment. Being before transactional feedback, he kept giving me negs, as much as two months apart, as well as sending me obscene emails. Pleas to Safeharbor did no good as they "simply couldn't get involved in private communications". Now, it seems they've changed their mind. Personally, I think this has very little to do with "spam" and "chatboard wars" and everything to do with their "perceived" loss of revenue due to outside sales. What hypocrisy. Nope, I don't like this one bit, and it pisses me off.
posted on December 23, 2000 09:07:22 AM new
Uh oh. Is it a big shoe, Ray? Like maybe a clown shoe? I hate surprises. And I can't imagine what further stupid ideas, (ebayspeak: "improvements" ) they could possibly have that would top this one. But then I thought the "block bidder list" couldn't be topped. Boy, was I wrong.
KatyD
(errrant winkie)
[ edited by KatyD on Dec 23, 2000 09:09 AM ]
posted on December 23, 2000 09:26:15 AM new
Well, I'm not a Voices member, & I haven't taken part in any secret hand shakes etc, so I suppose I can't be chastised by eBay for my comments. Of course, this is all just wild speculation on my part.
What if .........
Sellers were still allowed to post an email link on their auctions, ME pages, etc-etc, and still be allowed to use their email addys, as their User ID's.
Buyers were still allowed to use their email addys as their User ID's.
What if in active transactions:
1. Sellers were still able to view ALL bidder email addresses
2. ALL bidders were still able to view the sellers email address.
3. Bidders were NOT able to view other bidder email address
And eBay still allowed [via an online form] to contact *anyone* that was registered on their site, with only the "requesters" email addy be given out, [the person sending the message], and NOT the requestees. [the person receiving the email via the online form.
Same situation as above for pulling users Contact Info.
What if eBay also made it VERY easy to lodge complaints about Spam, when these online forms were abused.
posted on December 23, 2000 09:35:37 AM new
Ray, my seller id is my email address, but my buyer id isn't. And I AM thinking of changing that buyer id to an email address.
posted on December 23, 2000 09:46:12 AM new
Katy .... Why? I see it as a win-win situation for ALL users. If you're concerned about Spam, you can use a User ID & remove the possibility of having users contact you via your email addy. It would also help eliminate [or at least slow them down] email spam harvesters that use bots to gather email addys on eBay. It also keeps your email addy private even on the personal Contact Info pages.
If you're a seller, it removes a GREAT deal of the bottom feeding that takes place on eBay.
Please point out the downside for me, I must be missing something?
posted on December 23, 2000 09:53:06 AM new
reddeer wrote:
"What if eBay also made it VERY easy to lodge complaints about Spam, when these online forms were abused."
Could you please explain how this "VERY easy" complaint system would work? I would hate to see an unchecked system without any kind of appeals process in place, turned loose on the eBay community. But, I'm just guessing here of course. Could you please elaborate?
My crystal ball is a little hazy on this, but
what if via the online forms, the person that received the message, was able to click on a link & report the message sender as sending unwanted spam. There would be an explanation to the person who was about to lodge the complaint [so they clearly understood the definition of spam,auction interference, offers to sell outside of eBay etc-etc] and a number of check boxes via the link, and also a place to enter a comment if needed.
Let's then say that eBay would keep a record of the complaints on all users, and after a certain # of complaints, block the users ability to use the online eBay email forms.
eBay could then reinstate them after a certain period of time.
BUT, before they would suspend *anyones* use of the online forms, they would send warnings, [more than 1 warning, perhaps 4 or 5?] and also an educational email with the first warning with a link to a FAQ so that they understand what's allowed, and what isn't.
posted on December 23, 2000 10:14:11 AM new
reddeer, I don't like it because it shrouds the whole so-called "person to person" ebay trading experience in secrecy to ebay's benefit. I want to KNOW and decide WHO I do business with without ebay filtering my communications. I get alot of Spam and I hate it, but I can't say the majority of it originates from ebay. It's a fact of life of being in the net. I don't worry about "bottom feeders" because I've never thought it as big a problem as some people make it out to be. That's just my opinion and I know others don't agree with it. And I think that certain "people" who have been pushing for this thinking it's going to solve their problems of "bottom feeders", "spam" and "chatboard wars" are fools to think that ebay will implement these changes to benefit THEM. And if, as a buyer, I want to contact a buyer about their experience with a particular seller or to clarify feedback they have left before I bid, I want to do so, and that goes vice-versa as a seller. There have been times I've contacted a buyer regarding a mutual seller to ask if their purchase has been received when mine has been late and I've gotten that "sick" feeling. Also, as a seller, I've contacted other sellers to ask if they've yet received payment from "so and so". And guess what, the ability to do so has saved a number of "tardy" buyers an NPB and a neg for non-payment when I've given just a little more time due to the sellers response to me. I don't engage in "whispering campaigns" "backstabbing" "spam" or "bottomfeeding" and I do not like ebay deciding who I can or cannot contact directly regarding my business. Ebay has already made it's auction experience cumbersome. When is it going to end? Of course, this is just my opinion, and I realize others will see it differently.
posted on December 23, 2000 10:22:20 AM new
Katy ..... Well, I don't see how this system will stop you from contacting *anyone* on eBay? What it will do is allow the seller/buyer to keep their email addy Private, if they so choose.
posted on December 23, 2000 10:23:09 AM new
Hello reddeer. I apologize in advance for the length of this post. I haven't been able to spend much time online lately because of the holiday rush but I wanted to ask you if you read this thread on the T&S Board that I believe is related to eBay's new email policy.
http://remarq.ebay.com/ebay/transcript.asp?g=discuss%2Eebay%2Etrust%2Eand%2Esafety&tn=43196&sh=01c05b3bfcee6b16&idx=0 The thread asks for input on what is considered auction interference and I think it relates to the recent attention to the "netcopping" episodes
The thread is entitled "Your thoughts on this" and Gianni asks:
QUOTE
"What happens if a member emails the winning bidder of an auction and tells that winning bidder that the seller of that auction has misrepresented the item or that they are a big fraud?
As eBay currently stands, this is not either Auction Interference, mailing bidders in an open auction to warn them away from a seller or item, no is it SPAM, sending unsolicited, commercial email, including unwanted email to past bidders.
The reasons why it doesn't fit either definition is because the auction has closed and interference only applies during an open auction. It also is not SPAM because, yes the email is unwanted, but it is not commercial.
I would like to know your thoughts on this.
eBay will be reviewing these policies and I thought it would be a good idea to get the members' thoughts on this so that I can present this to the powers that be.
Do you think this should be considered interference?"
END QUOTE
Here is my reply and a suggestion concerning the availabilty of email addresses:
QUOTE
"GIANNI, I have already mentioned my opinion concerning your original question in an earlier post. But as a quick summary I don't think an auction is over until the CONTRACT is completed which means the buyer has received the goods and the seller has been paid. I actually thought this was already the rule regarding auction interference. So, yes, contacting a bidder after the auction is closed IS auction interference, IMO. Personally, I don't think there's any reason for any party not involved in the actual auction transaction to ever contact someone else's customers (bidders). However, I do think there are times when you need to contact the seller as well as times when, as an interested buyer, you need to check out an auction's bid activity that may appear suspicious. Toyranch, I'm not sure Yahoo's procedure adequately protects the buyer from fraud and shilling if this feature isn't incorporated into their site.
I have a suggestion regarding email addresses that I believe may be a fair compromise. Email addresses should not be displayed anywhere on the site, however the function to request an email address should still exist but in a different form. Why not make the request similar to the contact info request where BOTH parties receive an email from eBay which includes BOTH email addresses? This would still allow someone with a legitimate need to contact another party but would definitely curtail auction interference by busy bodies or competitors as well as bottom feeding and email harvesting which would benefit both eBay and it's community. The high bidder and seller's email info could still be included in the EOA notice in order to easily facilitate their transaction.
EBay needs to clearly spell out the definition of auction interference and, IMO, it should include ANY contact of someone else's bidders. In the real business world it's considered unethical and highly frowned upon to contact a business associate's customers and it shouldn't be any different here. As a seller, my customers have the right to expect ME to protect their privacy. As a buyer, I have the right to expect MY privacy to be protected by the seller and by eBay.
In order for my suggestion to work eBay would need to incorporate their rules regarding contacting other users in the email they send to both parties along with both email addresses. These rules need to be precise in order to be effective and should include the definition of auction interference as well as the punishment.
I see a number of benefits with this system:
1. Both parties will receive each other's email address so the person asking for this info cannot be transparent or invisible. He cannot ask for the info and then use an anonymous email address to contact the user because that user already has the other person's registered eBay email address which was sent to him by eBay at the time the request was made. If the user does receive an anonymous email after such an email address request which he regards as auction interference or bottom feeding he can send eBay's email along with the offending email to SafeHarbor for investigation. If there is no way to get a user's email address other than the eBay request form then it should be much easier for eBay to trace the unwanted email.
2. This will leave a traceable paper trail. (see number1) Maybe eBay should set up a separate group, other than SafeHarbor, to oversee and investigate email abuses by it's users. Also, eBay could set up a procedure for checking on excessive email requests by a user. I'm not sure what number would be considered excessive but this could be explored further.
3.This will definitely curtail uninvited netcopping as well as bottom feeders and email harvesting. Spam will be reduced.
4. Those folks with legitimate business-related questions will still be able to contact other eBay sellers. I don't have a problem with the seller receiving my email address along with my request for his since he would get it anyway from my email headers. The only person this would bother would be someone who doesn't have a legitimate reason for asking for the seller's email address.
5. Any party that is seriously interested in bidding on an auction can still check out questionable bidding activity by requesting the relevant email address but will not be able to actually contact the other bidders since this would be against eBay's rules. If they feel they have enough evidence after looking at the requested email addresses to suggest fraud or shilling they can report this info to SafeHarbor or TimeSensitive. It would also be great if eBay would take these complaints more seriously. In order to accomplish this task they need to hire more staff and train them in the methods used to discover fraud and shilling behavior. Perhaps this could be a different division under Safeharbor.
The main disadvantage that I see to my suggestion is the second step regarding the request for an email address. EBay would need to use a separate server for these requests because they will be time sensitive. If I need to ask a seller a question concerning an ongoing auction I'm going to need a quick response from eBay for the email address. Obviously, their present server won't be effective since it's already overworked and the replies are too slow which could have an adverse effect on the auction in question.
The second disadvantage is also related to the second step because it makes the process of asking a legitimate question of another user a bit more cumbersome and time consuming. But I'm willing to put up with the inconvenience in order to stop auction interference and spam as long as eBay sends the info QUICKLY.
This Board and the other eBay User to User Boards will still be useful as a place folks can come to get general advice. I just don't see any reason for anyone or any unauthorized group to go digging around in past or current auctions or contacting other bidders IF they were not DIRECTLY involved in those auction transactions. I consider this type of behavior to be dangerous and a blatant invasion of privacy."
END QUOTE"
I don't personally mind having to request someone's addy but I do not want the text of any of my emails to go through eBay for obvious reasons, the most important of which is the privacy issue. I haven't really spent any time studying the possible negative aspects of my proposal and would be interested in everyone's opinion.
BTW, I have a very bad feeling that eBay wants to TRACK all activity that relates to it's site in a "BIG BROTHER" way which is entirely too invasive for any business to pursue as a policy and especially one that is supposed to be just a venue.
posted on December 23, 2000 10:31:26 AM new
reddeer, perhaps I was misreading what you said or reading between the lines something you didn't say. You emphasized active auctions, so I assumed the changes you listed weren't going to apply to closed auctions. If keeping email address private is optional, then I guess it will be up to the individuals, but I don't like going through ebay for my correspondence..I don't want to send or receive messages through their server and so MY option would be to not buy from such sellers or to accept bids from such buyers who might opt for this.
posted on December 23, 2000 10:33:23 AM newI often give short and intentionally incomplete answers on YAHOO, my email address and an invite to contact me directly for more information.
That's the reason I ask the question again, it defeats the entire purpose of the "ask a question" on Yahoo.
Which looks alot better than this abortion that eBay is coming up with. Why not post the questions for all to see? Seller afraid to answer in public? Maybe I don't want the seller having my email address until I win the auction?
I see nothing but problems coming from this, either do the Yahoo method or leave it as it is.
Ain't Life Grand...
posted on December 23, 2000 11:45:18 AM new
RL is about to call, so I'll have to make this short & sweet.
Katy ...... In closed auctions the seller will able to view ALL email addys of bidders. The winning bidder will be able to view the sellers email addy.
Twelvepole ...... I often receive questions from potential bidders, that use a non registered free email addy. I have no idea who they are, while the auction is running, or afterwards. You might want to consider that option? I would imagine most sellers will have an email link on their auctions in the future, if they're smart, so in many cases there won't be a need to use the eBay online "ask a seller a question" form.
Blanche ...... I think the real beauty
of the system I posted, is that when using the eBay online forms, the only person whos email will be given out, will be the person sending the email.
I remember back when User ID's first came out. Everyone jumped on the bandwagon thinking it would help cut down on unwanted spam. Obviously that didn't work.
Any twerp with an agenda can grab a free email addy, use bogus contact info, and volia, they can get your email addy on eBay.
With eBay's new plan, this can be controlled/stopped, by anyone that doesn't want their email addy handed out by eBay on a silver platter. It will now be a personal choice for users.
I think there's going to be A LOT of VERY happy campers over this new feature. It's the same reason that AW allows users to stay anon. Not everyone invites unwanted spam, or wants busy bodies sticking their noses into places they don't belong.
BTW - I find it interesting that those on this thread who oppose this, do not have an email addy showing on AW.
posted on December 23, 2000 11:54:35 AM new
See how easily everyone is convinced that SPAM is "OUR problem"?? Really... it's not. We have a DELETE key.
SPAM is eBays problem!!!
Sellers and Buyers forming trades outside of the eBay format is eBays problem!!!
Safety on the site is eBays problem!!!
We are ALL still covered by the same laws regarding fraud whether we trade on eBay or not!
This new and "improved" policy that addresses all of the ways contacting other individuals is NOT ALLOWED is eBays "fix" toward stiffling our individual ability to make money without their hands in the pie every minute and controlling every aspect of our daily internet sales activity!
I wish eBay would do us all a favor and STOP doing us all "favors". *sheesh*
reddeer: I know you mean well... and I certainly DO understand where you're coming from in the way of protecting community members from bottom feeders and rotten spammers etc. But honestly, I'd rather DELETE unwanted eMail from my program than have my eMail address become some secret, hindering my ability to decide for myself if I want to trade with someone outside of the eBay format or not.... I'd rather DELETE unwanted mail than to have my online business correspondence manipulated and monitored by the fine "helpful" folks at eBay.
posted on December 23, 2000 12:02:33 PM new
Dottie ........ What if that unwanted email contains an unwanted virus, that doesn't need anything more than to be "opened" to run?
posted on December 23, 2000 12:13:10 PM new
reddeer,
Would this "VERY easy" complaint system be completely automated with ALL warnings and explanations being canned automatic responses? As in NO human involvement? Would individuals be automatically suspended and put out of business, taking away their incomes, based solely on these unchecked complaints that are assumed to be correct? Would the appeals process (if there is one) come AFTER someone is automatically suspended or BEFORE the damage is done?
posted on December 23, 2000 12:17:20 PM new
Ray .... I never mentioned anyone being *suspended*, as in "put out of business"?
Suspended from using the online forms, perhaps, but that would be it.
posted on December 23, 2000 12:36:19 PM new
I haven't read all of the posts on this thread yet, (apologies to Blanche), but my initial reaction is I agree with not having email addresses available to everyone because of the SPAM from address harvesting.
I know there are trade offs and not everyone will like the feature, but eBay had to do something about the SPAM, and this seems to be a reasonable compromise to me.
A solution for sellers who want their addresses available is to put it in the auction itself. Not perfect, but workable.
posted on December 23, 2000 01:47:52 PM new
I'm with red on this 100%.
There is a MAJOR problem on ebay with scum-sucking bottom-feeders, and the even lower trash that buy from them.
I say, BLOCK the e-mails from EVERYONE until the auctions are over, and then send the needed info ONLY to the winning bidder and seller.
If you want to put your e-mail addy in your listing, FINE, but I am so tired of all the bull with bottomfeeders and spam, that it makes me wanna puke.
I have stopped bidding on YOU GUY's auctions, because when I do, I get my email box stuffed for the next month with offers.
Example: I bid on a copy of Adobe Acrobat.
Within MINUTES, I received my first spam offering me a "backup" copy for 20 bucks.
Then came the flood.
Over the next 10 days, I received over FIFTY emails, all from different addy's, offering me every kind of illegal, bootlegged, and pirated software you could imagine.
This is just from bidding on ONE item.
When I sell, I get e-mails all the time from customers telling me that they were contacted by someone else that I am a scam, and that they should buy from THEM instead.
Then you have the tell tale signs of the same happening when you get retractions clumped together.
People rather buy an illegal product of course, for a fraction of the price.
I say BLOCK EM ALL!
Another thing is the bogus "user information" crock.
You can get anyones personal info, for ANY reason, which is bullsh*t.
You should NOT be allowed to get a users personal info UNLESS there is a PROBLEM, and then ONLY after a completed auction, and you MUST be either the BUYER or the SELLER.
PERIOD!!!
No wonder why so many people use phoney information on their registration.
posted on December 23, 2000 05:54:37 PM new
Hello again reddeer. I agree that our email addresses should not be displayed on eBay's site BUT I think we need to be very careful with the amount of control we allow them to have over our business. I have always been adamant in my belief that MY BUSINESS is just that - MY BUSINESS. I wish to have a choice concerning any third party involvement as a seller as well as a buyer. I don't work for eBay, I work for myself and every little bit of control I give up to eBay means less control I have in the running of my own business. The old saying "give them an inch and they'll take a mile" is, I think, apropos.
Although I see your point about the online form with regard to asking the seller a question, I would never use it because IMO it's akin to prying or monitoring and is an invasion of my privacy which I take very seriously. I don't mind having to go through eBay to request a user's email addy but I expect my correspondence with another user to remain private, which is impossible with the online form. Also, I detest Java script which I think is needed to use the form and I won't use that function on eBay due to the security and privacy problems and their association with DoubleClick and HitBox. Quite honestly, I think they've become whores and will do anything to make a buck.
My user ID doesn't include my email address because I didn't want that info just hanging out there for anyone not registered on the site to access. I do provide an email link when I'm running auctions in case someone needs clarification, etc. about the item I'm selling.
The key word for me is CHOICES and as long as I have them I will continue to do some business on eBay. However, if they remove those choices and the result is my having less control over my business, like not allowing email links in my auction, then I will have to move on.
posted on December 23, 2000 06:04:10 PM new
Hi Blanche .... I understand where you're coming from, and I'm usually the last one to pick up a pair of eBay pom poms, but IF they allow sellers to keep email links in their auctions, then I honestly believe this can be a good thing.
I haven't been able to spend much time online lately because of the holiday rush but I wanted to ask you if you read this thread on the T&S Board that I believe is related to eBay's new email policy.